Slashdot Log In
Bad Review for the Zaurus
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:23 AM
from the stuff-I-still-want dept.
from the stuff-I-still-want dept.
higginsx writes "Sharp's new Linux PDA, the Zaurus SL-5500, gets pretty bad marks from The Wall Street Journal's tech columist Walter Mossberg. He doesn't get much into the OS (other than complaining it wouldn't synch up with his laptop), but concludes that "it failed to do the simple things well. It has a high price, a complicated user interface, and hefty dimensions and weight. Even the cool-looking keyboard turns out to be clumsy to use."" I still really want
to try one out since I don't expect I'll ever sync a Zaurus to Outlook.
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Sl-5000D at JavaOne (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sl-5000D at JavaOne (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Sl-5000D at JavaOne (Score:2)
"No! Bad Samwise! No ale for you!"
Heh.
Re:Sl-5000D at JavaOne (Score:3, Informative)
Make that [LeftShift + Space] gives you the | (pipe)
I don't expect I'll ever sync a Zaurus to Outlook (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I don't expect I'll ever sync a Zaurus to Outlo (Score:3, Insightful)
I guess you intimated that with your second statement, I'm just saying that it was never a misuse by the user, just a lacking feature from the manufacturer. If users want to sync to Outlook, then 'but it's Linux!' should be met by the valid argument 'Then don't use Linux!'
I realise that Linux as an OS does not prevent the syncing, and that a bridge could be written, but you get my point.
Re:I don't expect I'll ever sync a Zaurus to Outlo (Score:4, Interesting)
It seems that logicians have used this phrase in the way you describe for hundreds of years, and I say it's about time they examine their usage and realize that it's nonsensical and a poor translation of "petitio principii". "Assumes the proposition" or even "circular argument" would describe the problem better and would release "beg the question" for such times as a discussion in fact "cries out for" a question to be raised.
Parent
Does it matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Does it matter? (Score:4, Insightful)
But you have to take these things in the appropriate context.
The issue is that Mossberg is well known in Mac circles for being a crotchety journalist who thinks computers mean WinTel. It's akin to pulling teeth to get him to admit that Macs had their purpose, which he has done on a few occasions (hey, he likes eye candy, tooth loss was inevitable).
So just because Mossberg couldn't get it working or had a tough time with it, doesn't mean it definately sucks. It just means that he had trouble. Given the unit (Linux-based handheld), and his history (Intel/Microsoft cheerleader), the fact that he has trouble with it isn't exactly surprising. (I don't mean to push the conspiracy aspect, only the "this is different than what I'm used to" aspect)
Nor should it be an outright condemnation of the unit, except maybe for sales forces who install/manage their own hardware. I only say that because one of our sales guys managed to disable his modem (and therefore his ability to send/receive email while on the road) after installing a Palm. A *Palm*.
It's not so much the resolution of the hardware conflict, half the battle is getting them to admit that they changed something. (grumble)
But that's a story for another day...
Parent
Re:Does it matter? (Score:5, Informative)
What he *does* say in the review, though, is that the Zaurus compares unfavorably with PocketPC devices in terms of battery life, hardware, size, available software and PDA functionality. He's spent time with many Palms, many PocketPCs and now, the Zaurus. Ever think that maybe he knows what he's talking about?
Parent
Re:Does it matter? (Score:3, Informative)
Even if he already tested many PDAs there are still big faults in his description: :-)
1. I don't think the UI is complicated. It is indeed very similar to other PDAs. But this is only a personal point of view and not very objective. For nearly every PDA OS I can find somebody who completely loves the UI or hates it more than anyhing else.
2. He wasn't really interested in the available software at all. He only looked at the offical Sharp site but compares the amount of this software to all the Palm/WinCE programs which can be found somewhere in the internet. If he would look at zaurus.sourceforge.net and zauruszone.com he would find some other programs. Also the KDE project begins with porting desktop applications. I can already play Quake and Nethack on the Zaurus!
Additionally every new PDA OS lacks programs. Why had anybody bought thinks like Palm OS or even Windows 95? In the beginning there were no good applications for them? With this in mind you cannot really critisize the lack of software (perhaps when you still use DOS because there are no really good win applications you can
Here's the catch. (Score:3, Interesting)
Take VB or Java/JFC. Not often do you see widely used commercial apps written in either of these. But the amount of "inside"or one-off specialty software written like this is huge. I think this PDA could find a niche in that sort of market. Dont think of it as a product so much a s a PDA "kit" that you have to might have to tweak a little.
Huh? (Score:2)
Re:Huh? (Score:2, Informative)
Was to be expected (Score:2, Insightful)
Asking too much of Sharp (Score:2)
Sharp has not been good in the past at releasing new technology items that get wide acceptance. I think you hit it on the head about their rush to market. As their product gets used and they identify bad features, problematic options, etc., they will mature their product like all their others. It takes Sharp time to do this, and their development costs are too huge for their budgets.
"Worship" (Score:2)
The giant penguin image [thinkgeek.com] that stares right at me wants me to vindicate Linux by hacking into Walter Mossberg's email...
Re:"Worship" (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a first iteration product and if it only manages to appeal to the folks here on
Parent
Not sure what that guys problem is (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Not sure what that guys problem is (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps the Geek Gods should be a little less condecending to us mere mortals.
Parent
big deal (Score:3, Funny)
I usually agree with Mossberg... (Score:2, Informative)
WinCE / PocketPC sucked pretty bad too. (Score:4, Insightful)
reading this on my Zaurus now... (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, not many PDAs give you both CF and SD slots. Embedix/Qt is a great OS for the PDA, and I hope it grows and rivals Palm OS and Pocket PC.
Re:reading this on my Zaurus now... (Score:5, Funny)
And a less cumbersome keyboard, by the looks of it.
Parent
Sharp Zaurus (Score:3, Interesting)
Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
Welcome to the minority. Just because we may not want to, some people will. So, one has to decide between marketing for a (possibly unprofitable) niche market or just making something that will work with any Windows laptop so people can carry their outlook address books around.
I applaud Sharp for their work but if this thing is big and clunky, then they should go back to the drawing board.
It's a shame... (Score:2)
The battery life issue seems like a real problem for those who use it frequently. Also, the usability is the most important feature for mainstream acceptance. The fact that it is cluttered and difficult to use only serves to further justify the popular idea that Linux is hard to use and for geeks only (an opinion that is not without merit). The cost of the Zaurus also works against the idea that Linux is cheaper.
It's really a shame that Sharp couldn't have put forward a better, more usable product. As it is, it looks like it will be another black-eye to the public's view of Linux. Could it be that Linux, in its current state is simply too beefy for a lightweight application like a PDA?
The Zaurus rocks! (if ya like that kinda thing) (Score:2, Interesting)
I've also got X installed, but you have to kill the QT desktop before you can launch X
You can also install xcopilot on it (Palm emulator) and run lots of Palm sw. I installed a gnuboy port on it and have tried out a couple of gameboy games. The ones I tried were too slow, I thought. Maybe xmess playing colecovision games will work out, or xmame/zmame with some older arcade units will perform better.
The fact that it runs linux makes it the ideal toy, as it's easy to modify and hack to do whatever you want.
Outlook still important (Score:3, Interesting)
I would still like to see a review from a technical magazine/journal/website that I trust. Somewhere that I am comfortable with the clue-level of the reviewer. I'm not saying that he doesn't know what he's talking about, but I usually don't see the most knowledgeable computer/electronics info in the newspaper. The WSJ may be different, but I don't read it, so I must paint with a wide brush.
using it now (Score:2, Interesting)
it syncs w/my outlook.
it works with my linksys cf very well.
kbd is very cool.
opera isn't bad.
the reviewr is on crack.
Re:using it now (Score:3, Funny)
like
those
pda
screens!
:)
Reviewer Bias (Score:2, Insightful)
he probably forgot (Score:3, Funny)
Mossberg Reviews - Thorough and Fair (Score:5, Insightful)
This is another review where I think Walt is right on. The Zaurus SL-5500 is making the same mistake made by M$ with their PDA, mainly that the user interface is too complicated. The Palm OS is still the standard for simplicity as far as the GUI is concerned.
I can't speak for the issue of Outlook sync. However, if it's advertised on the box and in the company press release, there should at least be some documentation on how to get it to work.
I hope the word LINUX doesn't scare the average user away from using the product. I'm afraid that poor documentation will only make people fear it more.
If the Linux community wants a broader acceptance of the platform then we have to stop with the attitude that something is good enough because a nerd can figure it out.
Had no problem syncing with Outlook (Score:3, Informative)
In addition to that, for the geeks out there, I have installed sshd, boa (webserver), and a samba server. I also saw Perl and Python for the Zaurus, but I am waiting on my SD memory card before I install too much more. There are many programs out there already that make this a PDA I might actually use, and most of them are Open Source.
There are several good development sites out there: ZaurusZone [zauruszone.com] and sharp's own Developer Site [sharpsec.com]. You can download the kernel for it from Sharp's site and recompile it yourself because they have detailed instructures and supply a link to a gcc cross-compiler for the ARM processor.
In the Zaurus development guide they explain that the easiest way to do development for it is to NFS mount a shared drive onto the Zaurus. That is just cool.
I would totally agree that it is not for suits, but for the geek in me it has been one of the coolest things I have played with in a while.
~Giliath
PDA Death Sentance (Score:5, Insightful)
I know all you Linux users are geeked out by the fact that it runs Linux, but PDAs are about simplicity of use, and compatability. If this unit from Sharp (who, in my opinion has always been a third rate electronics manufacturer) is as big and as clumsy as the reviewer says it is, it has almost zero chance of adoption.
This is a PalmOS and (God help us) WindowsCE market.
Think about the corporate buyer. These guys are conservative. They don't want something not mainstream, and a PDA not running PalmOS or WINCE is NOT mainstream. Nobody wants to get crap from his CEO about the PDA choice. Guess what else, the CEO doesn't give a crap that it runs Linux. All he knows is that his other CEO buddies have WINCE and PalmOS PDAs and wants to know why his company isn't doing what everybody else is.
This market simply doesn't and shouldn't care all that much about what OS the PDA is running. Its a big geek factor to run Linux, but was it really a good choice? Probably not.
Re:PDA Death Sentance (Score:3, Insightful)
Depends on your point of view. From the customers point of view, it might not be. After all, they'll either like it or they won't, and they have a choice to whether to use it or not, same as with any OS (except windows on the desktop). However, look at the competition: Windows Pocket PC and PalmOS.
Now the Palm is a mighty fine OS, but it seems to be losing all but the budget market to Microsoft. Palm itself meanwhile is looking shaky, the handspring PDAs didn't take off, and the Palm models are looking increasingly dated and limited.
This could leave the PDA market in the unenviable position of also being dominated by Microsoft, simply through Pocket PC being better. Now whatever you may think of Sharp, and they do seem to have made some dumb mistakes here, they probably don't want to see MS dominate yet another marketplace as it tends to be bad for everybodies profit margins (other than Microsofts of course).
So - they are taking a risk by using Embedix/Qt rather than Pocket PC. As a result, there will be a segment of the populace (reviewers will always be amongst them) who will look down on this decision. After all, where operating systems are concerned not going with the mainstream usually brings the disadvantage of
a) being different and
b) not having as many apps.
However, Sharp is willing to take that risk because it knows that if one day PocketPC was the only viable OS for PDAs it'd be shafted, after all, whenever MS is in need of cash, well just turn the screws on the PDA makers. Why not?
Look - understand one thing: for a long time yet reviewers will always prefer PocketPC/PalmOS over Linux on PDAs for exactly the same reason they poopoohed Windows CE when it first came out: lack of apps, slow, unpolished, first generation etc, what's the advantage over Palm and so on.
Now Windows CE had the advantage when it came out of brand recognition: CEOs went, ooh, windows, we must have it, it's expensive but we'll have an integrated solution from one company. And MS refined the OS, the PocketPC of today is sooo much better than CE when it first came out. And there were no apps at first, but Windows developers found their skills were largely portable and so on.
But you are forgetting that Linux on the PDA is in the same position. It also has brand recognition, for different reasons. Instead of going, ooh, it'll integrate with everything, CEOs might well go, oooh, it'll be cheap, reliable and we'll be free from MS tyranny. They balance out. And right now it needs polish, it's a first generation product - what do you expect? And it doesn't have many apps yet, but they'll be quickly ported, if anything it's easier to port apps for this than for WinCE. Yes - there might be a problem with the apps available being of the geek variety, but I have plenty of non-geek apps available, and at the end of the day it'll be a market motivated by demand.
I'd be highly surprised if people who bought a Zaurus expected all their software to be free. Most won't care, and that means they'll be willing to pay for their software (which is good imho) and that means it won't be long until people figure out they can make a bit on the site porting their Linux apps or writing new apps for Embedix/Qt and selling them. I know I'd be thinking about it if I could afford a Zaurus ;) I don't see any intrinsic reason why Linux PDAs should fail.... they can easily compete with PocketPC, the only problem right now is that PocketPC has a head start. But then that was true of Palm wasn't it?
Sad But True... (Score:4, Insightful)
His second point is that by using a completely new operating system, they lock out users from the thousands of existing Palm and Windows CE programs. Once again, we have the "no apps for it, so nobody buys it, so nobody programs apps for it" circle.
Palm managed to overcome that by providing most of the useful features (like syncing with Outlook) out of the box...and with the sheer coolness factor of owning a PDA.
Microsoft overcame that simply by taking the loss necessary to keep their handhelds on the market until their market share got bigger. And by adding features to Windows CE devices that Palm didn't want to, like media players.
Sharp didn't serve its customers well by putting Linux on this device.
A couple problems with this (Score:3, Insightful)
Secondly, it doesn't allow the user to run their conduits, so many of these applications would be crippled at best.
Thirdly, the emulators are not perfect from an emulation point of view and also generally have problems from an interface stand point.
Windows XP personal firewall... (Score:5, Interesting)
Windows XP has a personal firewall that is built in and enabled by default without the users knowledge.
Put two and two together....
This poor guy just needed to turn off his firewall, becouse if it is turned on the Zaurus can not sync.
And, yes, I own a Zaurus.
Zaurus Intellisync Manual (Score:4, Interesting)
It also seems that there is mention of Outlook in quite a few places in the same manual... I picked this up after skimming the downloadable PDF for about 2 minutes.
It would seem the problem here is not the product, but instead a dumbass reviewer that
What's a shame is the number of people that will never look at the Zaurus because if this column.
Parent
Not for the fat fingered! (Score:3, Informative)
I seriously have loved this thing since I got my hands on it. That is saying a lot since I have hated every single PDA I have ever had before this. I think the keyboard is great, but it is definitely not for the fat fingered user. One thing that you can not tell from the pictures is that the keys are a hard plastic, not soft rubber. At first I made the mistake of trying to punch them with the stylus. It slipped off for the most part. So I went with the double thumbs technique that is popular with the text messaging via cell phone crowd. Now I can rip right through the keys, oh and they have a very nice tactile click when pressed. I could seriously go on all day about this product. But here are some cool links to an open source version of the Rom image that removes the Jeode JVM and Opera (which has now been replaced with Konqueror). I just have to assume the guy from the WSJ is a fat fingered dolt.
[sharpsec.com]
Sharp Developers Program
The OpenZaurus Program [zauruszone.com]
Program Overview [zauruszone.com]
OpenZuarus Downloads [sourceforge.net]
Great Device (Score:3, Informative)
They keyboard took some getting used to, but honestly I can't think of a better solution for the size this has to be. Thumbing is fine and fast.
And it has a real browser that understands real HTML and CSS. The (adjustable) scaling is amazing - I can read two columns of NY Times w/ no trouble.
Being a Linux box makes a huge difference. Screw PDA-sync - this thing does *rsync*!
Plus it was amazingly easy to install the ftpfs kernel module and have instant ftp-in-file-browser. Try that on your PocketPC!
Not a very competent tech writer IMHO (Score:3, Insightful)
Zaurus isn't ready for general consumers. (Score:5, Interesting)
* There are "Mystery Meat" buttons in nearly every application. Doing something like adding or editing a contact in the address book is made frustrating because you have to tap on a tiny graphical button that you *think* might be what you want rather than a textual pulldown menu that makes sense. (This one of the biggest annoyances. Software should be functional and easy to understand before it's made to look pretty)
* Even doing something that should be simple like changing your timezone is done with an overcomplicated application with no help of any kind (You see a screen with a world map, and you have to *guess* where your city is located by tapping on the worldmap to set the timezone correctly).
* The rotation app doesn't change the orientation of qtopia itself, only the applications running under qtopia.
* You have to basically reboot whenever you install a new program for it to show up on the desktop.
* Bootup time from a reset takes almost 1 min compared to just seconds on CE or PalmOS. (I wouldn't have cared about bootup time if I didn't need to restart the damn thing every time I install a program)
* The device seems to forget its backlight settings from time to time. (backlight turns off then won't turn on again unless you go into the light and power app to set it).
* Clicking on an icon with the stylus then moving it just a tiny amount while your trying to open an app brings up an annoying window (this comes up accidentily all the time for me).
* Seems to be very dependent on having network/internet access to install software. (This is a BAD thing on a handheld)
* Sure, it has productivity software, but it's far too limited in functionality to really be useful. Or maybe it is functional, but I just don't understand it. (have I mentioned the "Mystery Meat" factor?)
* Updating the rom is time consuming and requires extra hardware to do. (example: Updating the operating system on the Zaurus requires a blank compact flash card and a bit of work (not that I mind hacking around, but we're talking about a non-techie user standpoint here). Installing an OS update on an ipaq or similar device requires no special hardware and is fairly effortless. I've found that even installing linux and qtopia on an ipaq and making an update is easier than making the same update on the Zaurus)
Basically, the Zaurus is probably good for the tech croud/linux geek, but definately needs a lot more work before it's ready for consumption by the general public or to compete with other handhelds IMHO.
Read the Amazon reviews - its a geek toy (Score:4, Interesting)
Although most people who bought a Zaurus love it, including fellow poster TechnoLust [slashdot.org](read his journal), the ones that don't complain about the Linux OS - saying they prefer Windows or Palm. Hey, some people like a little handholding with their handheld.
The people who bought it because it runs Linux all seem to love it. Personally, the idea of a wireless handheld that runs bash and can ssh into my network is irresistible. I'm buying one, soon!
Linux PDA's suck--they're not blocks of wood (Score:4, Insightful)
Any real UI designer is going to tell you that you must always design the interface and work out the user interaction before a single line of code is ever written. The same goes with a PDA, and then you have to add "before you ever design the hardware" to that provision.
One must also consider that PDA's and desktops PC's have an entirely different set of design constraints for their interfaces. One constraint is size: A type of widget that is perfectly clickable with a mouse at its 40x40 pixel desktop PC size is a target that is nearly impossible to hit at a 5x5 with a stylus and should not be used on a handheld just because it is familiar to someone who has used a desktop pc. Another PDA design constraint is time: people using PC's accept badly designed interfaces because they plan half a day around kludging their way through their task. People accept that computers are awkward and slow to use, and are able to plan they way around it. People using PDA's often don't have the luxury to plan when they're going to use their technology. They might have 20 seconds and not any more to get down an important phone number. My point is that the laws of physics for desktop machines and for PDA's are entirely different. Anyone who is too much of a clueless newbie (like many of the failed linux PDA developers) to understand this is really nothing more than marketplace cannon-fodder.
I will admit I haven't used a Sharp Zaurus, but from just looking at the layout of the buttons and looking at how the TrollTech embedded interface is designed (i.e. mirroring a full-size desktop interface) I can pretty much say that Sharp/Trolltech is guilty of the same thing that killed the Agenda Vr3: "We'll design the hardware and the basic user interface first and worry about creating the interface later." What Sharp and Trolltech really need to make the Zaurus succeed is a good block of wood.
People call the reviewer clueless. They say "he doesn't take the time to learn thing x or adapt himself to thing y". The real clueless newbies who don't want to learn are linux programmers who refuse to learn how to design usable interfaces for PDA's. Any attempt to deny the truth of this point will only further prove the truth of this post.
Things I've found wrong with the Zaurus (so far) (Score:3, Informative)
I agree with a lot of the review (especially the screen being really nice) but have two other additional gripes:
1) The palm-like handwriting recognition doesn't seem to work well, and also seems to "lag" while I am drawing out the strokes. It's a good idea to trace the strokes to see what I wrote, but it doesn't fee responsive. Some of the bad recognition could be me just being used to the Palm interface.
2) (Big problem) I'm not sure I should blame Zaurus for this really but... the wireless 802.11b CF card they sold with the Zaurus at the show has a serious issue. When in place, you cannot remove the stylus!! Good thing I always carry a Palm so I had easy access to a stylus. I guess in a way I can blame them for not moving the CF card a little over to the side anticipating things like the wireless CF card (which it does have drivers for already).
My other thoughts are that with the CF card it seemed to drain power rather quickly (possibly even while the device was off?), and that I found using the keyboard awkward while holding the device - also slower than grafitti.
Re:To dumb (Score:2)