Knoppix To Split Into 'Light,' 'Maximum' Versions

prostoalex writes "Everyone's favorite Knoppix project will be split into light and maximum editions, which should end the argument on whether the Live CD operating system should focus on small footprint, or greater support for external applications." From the linked ZDNet article: "'We will split the mainstream edition of Knoppix into two versions: a 'maximum' DVD edition with a complete Debian installation, and a 'light' edition on CD that contains the most popular desktop and server software only, for older computers or smaller systems that don't have a bootable DVD drive yet,' said Knopper."

Windows Manager

[goofyheadedpunk (807517)]

I'm curious, will Fluxbox be on this "light" disk? I ask because the summary says that the most 'popular desktop'. That would be KDE, but light it is not!

Re:Windows Manager

[nukem996 (624036)]

Knoppix really needs fluxbox. I personally use it on my every day system(an AMD64 gaming machine) but when I am fixing computer at work I find KDE takes forever to load on knoppix, fluxbox would be really nice, and its small.

Re:Windows Manager

[UnderScan (470605)]

Use icewm instead of KDE with the the boot codes:
knoppix desktop=icewm

Re:Windows Manager

[FuzzyBad-Mofo (184327)]

Something like Knoppix Cheat Codes [confederatelinux.com], perhaps?

Re:Windows Manager

[jm92956n (758515)]

I'm curious, will Fluxbox be on this "light" disk? I ask because the summary says that the most 'popular desktop'. That would be KDE, but light it is not!

Pure conjecture, but I expect the light CD would include KDE. I think the light CD will be quite similar to the latest Knoppix release, except with a variety of package updates. The maximum CD should have everything, including the token "kitchen sink"

It all depends upon your definition of an "older computer." Theirs, I think, is still in the P-III range (650 mhz - 1.8 ghz). Mine, however, is completely different. My primary computer is a Celeron 500 and I don't expect to upgrade any time soon. KDE is painful on my system, but other lightweight WM's run flawlessly. I beleive they're leave the "really eh'fin old" computer segment to distros like Damn Small Linux [damnsmalllinux.org] (which, incidentally, is a heavily stripped down version of Knoppix).

Re:Windows Manager

[pjt33 (739471)]

KDE runs quite happily on my 400MHz machine. Maybe you're a bit short on RAM?

Light is relative

[fireboy1919 (257783)]

Linux doesn't take much space.

The lite edition still has 600MB to work with, and if they don't pack it full, it's not as useful as if they did. KDE would certainly be good to have, and they'll still have plenty of space to install it when they're done.

When I installed everything I might think about using (five window managers, gnome and kde versions of almost everything, etc) on my box compiled with -Os, I got about 3.7GB of programs. I can't wait to see the DVD-DL version of Knoppix. That should be ab

Re:Windows Manager

[MsGeek (162936)]

I think IceWM is an option that can be set at boot.

Yes But...

[by Anonymous Coward]

Is it digitally signed?

Re:Yes But...

[MrRuslan (767128)]

nope. But u get the MD5 ;)

Re:Yes But...

[anamexis (753041)]

And thus, the next Slashdot cliche is born.

Knoppix as Debian Installer

[MsGeek (162936)]

I know that Klaus Knopper doesn't see Knoppix as a Debian installer, but I think that he should take a second look at this, especially considering the idea of a "lite" and a "full" version of the Knoppix CD.

The "lite" version of the CD should allow for a simplified HD install, complete with Knoppix' superior hardware detection facility. Neither the official Debian Sarge installer nor the Ubuntu installer is as good as Knoppix for "figuring out" the hardware it's looking at. I don't know about Mepis because I've never used it.

Maybe if Herr Knopper won't do it, someone should fork Knoppix and do it for him.

Re:Knoppix as Debian Installer

[UnderScan (470605)]

Maybe if Herr Knopper won't do it, someone should fork Knoppix and do it for him.
Try Kanotix as one of the reasons it was forked from Knoppix was to allow a very easy Debian install.

A note on bloat

[Animats (122034)]

Operating systems expand to fill the available boot media.

Re:A note on bloat

[IO ERROR (128968)]

Operating systems expand to fill the available boot media.

No, they expand far past that. Seen SuSE lately? I remember when Red Hat was just TWO CDs, one of which was source, and SuSE came with SIX. I have no idea what they're up to now.

Of course, if you threw everything in Gentoo onto DVD, it would take up about 10 DVDs...20, with sources.

Even Windows isn't immune. Longhorn has outgrown even the 700MB CD, and will ship on DVD.

Re:A note on bloat

[Bitsy Boffin (110334)]

You are confusing "operating system" with "humungous distribution of non-essential software". Parent post too.

Re:A note on bloat

[Mage Powers (607708)]

A point that comes up on slashdot here and there, is where do you draw the line with linux? Whats really the "linux operating system"? kernel + coreutils isn't exactly a wholly useful setup. With windows its a bit more obvious, they give you a bunch of crap when you install it.

I just want to see a definition of "Linux operating system" even if its something variable like "a window manager, a calculator, a web browser, a shell, a kernel etc" just to add some clarification to the whole thing

But yea I agree

Re:A note on bloat

[Jugalator (259273)]

A point that comes up on slashdot here and there, is where do you draw the line with linux?

I personally draw it at 1 CD. :-)

I have a broadband connection so I don't need massive amounts of software bundled. I don't care much about exactly what software it is, although I prefer if what they choose is fairly popular software. If we have special demands, I'm fine with downloading (gasp! what's that!?) it from the Internet.

Re:A note on bloat

[by Anonymous Coward]

> Operating systems expand to fill the available boot media.

As proven by
http://www.menuetos.org/
one floppy, with :
- Pre-emptive multitasking, multithreading, ring-3 protection
- Responsive GUI with resolutions up to 1280x1024, 16 million colours
- IDE: Editor/Macro Assembler for building kernel and applications
- TCP/IP stack with Loopback, PPP & Ethernet drivers
- Network applications include ftp/http/mp3/smtp servers,
- irc, http, nntp and tftp clients
- Free-form, skinnable application windows
- Hard re

Umm...

[ccharles (799761)]

which should end the argument on whether the Live CD operating system should focus on small footprint, or greater support for external applications.

Not likely. It'll just mean that each camp will have a disc that suits them.

You know, I love this...

[by Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is bitching about how people can't trust code that doesn't belong to them, Homeland security says we can't trust what should be a simple piece of software *by* them...

meanwhile, Knoppix is a wonderful, portable, safe, stable distribution that can go anywhere you do, and is so easy to use that my 87 year old grandmother who is so frial she can't leave her bed (we've had a hospital bed put in her room for her) can literally boot an old laptop (with DOS 6.2 installed) and use it to email and *even instant message* her grandson (me), who is 300km away.

And its free.

If there were *ever* a prime demonstration of what can be accomplished by OSS in action, surely Knoppix is that demonstration.

P.S. I told my grandmother about the microsoft-flaming-firefox thing... she said (and I quote, verbatim)"Someone should tell those... those... those Microstuff people (shes a little poor of hearing) to smarten up or be quiet."

Grandma, How I Love You.

*sniffle*

[EvilStein (414640)]

That is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen here, oh anonymous one.

it made me proud to be an American! Won't someone please think of the grandmothers??

Re:*sniffle*

[Vo0k (760020)]

For Europeans, 100 miles is a long way to go.
For Americans, 100 years is a long time ago.

What I'd like to see...

[caferace (442)]

A 'Lite' version that I can download quickly over a slow connection, burn to CD when I'm in "Oh Fuck" mode and don't have my kit with me.

A 'Behemoth' DVD I can keep in my kit, hopefully along with me excepting those "Oh Fuck" moments.

Re:What I'd like to see...

[UnderScan (470605)]

Try DamnSmall for the Lite. Kanotix is rumored to have a DVD soon. You can customize Knoppix to make it as small or as big as you want. Check out the Remastering & Customization forum at Knoppix.net.

650MB "lite", or 700MB "lite"?

[Yaztromo (655250)]

I've played with Knoppix before, and think it's just amazing.

Just over a year ago, I inhereted an old K6-2 450Mhz box with a dead hard drive. As I had an old monitor kicking around, and as I typically hate having guests use any of my workstations, I decided to remove the hard drive and set the system up as a dedicated Knoppix box.

I dutifully downloaded the ISO and burned a CD, only to find that the machine in question had an old CD-ROM drive incapable of reading 700MB discs. So I was SOL (and eventually found Gnoppix [gnoppix.org], which did fit onto a 650MB disc this machine could boot).

I can't imagine I've been the only person to run into this issue with Knoppix, so I wonder if this new "lite" version will be designed to work on 650MB discs (although admittedly I had a bit of a rough time even finding such discs to burn that Gnoppix CD oh so long ago).

(And yes, I suppose I could spend a bit of money and buy a new CD-ROM drive for the machine, but it was a freebie, and is supposed to be a guest machine, so it isn't as if I'm personally hurting by not putting any money into it ;) ).

Yaz.

What will they name the Blueray/HD-DVD editions?

[NZheretic (23872)]

Up to 27 gigabytes of compressed Open Source source code and binaries in a live file system.

Don't worry about distribution - they will just send it to everybody as an email attachment.

But....

[dteichman2 (841599)]

Will the download have a Verisign sig? If not, how can we trust it?

How about "ultralight" CD for vintage-95 systems?

[davidwr (791652)]

I work with a charity that gives donated computers to schoolchildren.

Unless there's a canned one out there, it looks like I'm going to have to roll my own "ultralight" CD to give away to people still running mid-90s hardware: 16-64MB RAM, 500MB-1GB HD, 2-4x CD if you are lucky, 14.4-33.6 modem if you are lucky, ISA or early-PCI sound card and video

Example software:
Lightweight web browser w/ Java - FF if it's not too heavy
Lightweight word processor that opens/saves MS-Word 95 files
Lightweight spreadsheet that opens/saves MS-Excel 95 files
Lightweight "presentation" program that opens/saves MS-Powerpoint 95 format

ssh, ftp, etc.
lightweight games
easy-to-use modem-dialer
cd-audio player/mixer
MS-Windows remote terminal services client

and of course support for all kinds of older hardware one might find on computers donated to charity.
Boot CD with a single floppy.

Anyone know of a canned Linux distro or bootable CD that fits my needs?

Anyone see any glaring ommissions from my software requirements?

Re:How about "ultralight" CD for vintage-95 system

[stoborrobots (577882)]

There are several - I usually go to http://www.linux.org/dist/index.html [linux.org] and select the "LiveCD" Category. This suggests a range of options, each with different advantages. I try out a new one every few months, just to get some variety.

One I tried recently, which is close to your needs is FeatherLinux (http://featherlinux.berlios.de/ [berlios.de]). I'm not sure about XL/Powerpoint in the default install, but it can install OpenOffice if you wish.

Remastering Knoppix

[irabinovitch (614425)]

Remastering Knoppix CDs is doable. If any of the standard Knoppix live cds don't meet your needs you can customize one of your own. Ce cil Watson will giving a talk at the [socallinuxexpo.org] Southern California Linux Expo [socallinuxexpo.org] (SCALE 3x) in February about how to go about doing this. Cecil is maintainer of KnoppMyth, a Knoppix distribution customized for use as a Linux based PVR with MythTV.

Re:Remastering Knoppix

[WoTG (610710)]

I've been playing around with remastering Knoppix on and off for the last week or so... I've had the best luck with the instructions in this forum post [knoppix.net]. It's a lot easier than the wiki instructions, and it's current. YMMV.

Everyone's favorite?

[tempest303 (259600)]

Really, Knoppix is everyone's favorite? Give me Ubuntu [ubuntulinux.org]'s Live CD any day!

'Light,' and 'Maximum'

[Dr. Derail (841112)]

What? No Menthol?

Re:Who?

[Firehawke (50498)]

You might want to download and actually give it a try. It doesn't touch the HD at all, making it perfect for data recovery or situations where you don't have permission to use the drive for personal use. It gives you a complete set of applications and leaves no residue on the system.

Re:Who?

[ticktockticktock (772894)]

Actually, Knoppix does touch the drive if you have any swap partitions around. For any kind of forensics usage of Knoppix, pass it the "noswap" option.

Re:Who?

[frickenhell (643246)]

It does actually touch the HDD. It mounts a swap partition if it exists.

I can only see this as bad if you have a suspended session saved on the swap partition. Think laptops.

Re:Who?

[calibanDNS (32250)]

Knoppix is amazingly useful as a resuce resource. I can't always carry everything that I'd like with me when I might encounter a computer in need of repair. With a Knoppix CD on hand I have a great set of tools that can help to diagnose and repair many problems.

Re:Who?

[Olaserov (785074)]

I can think of two fairly good reasons for always having a Live CD handy.

First, for those unfortunate incidents in which I screw up a new kernel compilation and lock myself out of my computer.

Second, for scaring the crap out of my computer teacher -- "What did you do to Windows? What the **** did you do to Windows?!?"

Re:Who?

[Taladar (717494)]

For the first situation you don't want to use Knoppix but rather a Live Cd that matches your distribution closely and boots without all this crap like X and KDE or Gnome

Re:Who?

[One Childish N00b (780549)]

This reminds me of my first year of college, studying Computing as one of my subjects. Now my teacher for this was Welsh, and had absolutely no clue about anything not contained within the pages of his hideously out-of-date textbook. He even forced us to learn Pascal when there was C/C++ availible as a 'preferred equivalent' in the curriculum. One long year of being baby-walked through coding and compiling command-line apps with Borland TurboPascal 5.5 for Windows. Sheer Hell. So after wasting countless hou

Re:Who?

[EvanED (569694)]

As others have said, you can boot Knoppix without it touching the hard drive (or even in a computer without one I assume), and in fact that's the default configuration. It is possible to tell it about a swap partition (or file I think), but it's unnecessary.

Any drives you have aren't even mounted at boot, though they do get desktop icons. Clicking them mounts the drive for use. (I forget about defaults regarding read vs. read/write; I think using the icons just gives you readonly.)

More the point, who are you?

[gtoomey (528943)]

Knoppix has many uses, including:

- run Linux with/without a hard disk
- evaluate latest software
- password recovery - allows you to reset /etc/password or /etc/shadow
- file system fsck
- install to hard disk: you get Debian without the 'orrible Debian installer

Re:More the point, who are you?

[benna (614220)]

- file system fsck

Isn't that a bit redundent?

Re:More the point, who are you?

[hunterx11 (778171)]

Not really, because it uses Linux technology instead of NT technology.

Re:bad call

[Atzanteol (99067)]

Er... Use the CD (lite) version? Perhaps?

Re:bad call

[freeweed (309734)]

Step 1: read the article
Step 2: failing this daunting undertaking, read the article summary:

We will split the mainstream edition of Knoppix into two versions: a 'maximum' DVD edition with a complete Debian installation, and a 'light' edition on CD that contains the most popular desktop and server software only, for older computers or smaller systems that don't have a bootable DVD drive yet

Step 3: Try to find mods who also read the article summaries before modding people up.

Re:Morphix, anyone?

[Vo0k (760020)]

Been there, tried that, abandonned in favour of standard Knoppix. The problem with Morphix is the "modules" are pretty rigid structures, not quite easy to customize. Yes, you can "roll your own", like with everything open source. But plain "remastering" of vanilla Knoppix is much easier than building Morphix modules.

Re:How will this ultimately turn out?

[Vo0k (760020)]

You're forgetting about one thing. This is Free Software. There's no motivation behind releasing crippled versions. You just try to make it best possible within specified limits.

And people will complain, yes. No matter what to do.

I think that this could be a move that will start some off-shoots of Knoppix. It should be very good for Knoppix users.

MORE KNOPPIX OFF-SHOOTS??? NOOOOOOO!
(do you have a clue how many different Knoppix off-shoots are out there? HUNDREDS!)

Re:a good idea

[Bill_Royle (639563)]

this is a great idea i use Knoppix a lot and frequently on old computers but having some additional features on a dvd would be great for higher end systems and simplify carrying a bunch of cds or downloading some utilities"

Is your version of Knoppix devoid of comma or period support? :)