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Bringing Down A Copycat Site
Posted by
timothy
on Wed Dec 29, 2004 04:11 AM
from the cajoling-and-threats dept.
from the cajoling-and-threats dept.
Nigel Cross wrote in with an interesting story from the world of software fraud. Cross writes "I found a copycat site fraudulently selling my own software and kept a record of the steps it took to bring him down."
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Step One: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Step One: (Score:5, Informative)
We actually created it for inhouse use to handle the people that e-mailed us to join our mailing list so they could learn about new releases. We found it so useful that we released it as a product.
I'm sure you voluntarily belong to a lot of mailing lists. Is the software that is used to send those messages spam software?
Nigel Cross
Parent
Re:Step One: (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Step One: (Score:3, Insightful)
Generate random mail addresses and test extreme conditions? Also if it works, use that screenshot to show how powerful it is.
I am not developers friend or something but I can sure imagine why since I have a coder friend coding opt-in maillist software for huge online store, tested EXACT SAME WAY.
Somehow, on this story, I felt like I am at download.com comment trollheaven.
Re:Step One: (Score:3)
Re:Step One: (Score:4, Funny)
Slashdot has more users than that, based on UsedID numbers
No one likely knows for sure, but I'd bet that up to 50% are dupes or abandoned accounts and Taco himself probably owns dozens - that's why all the good usernames are already taken. He's hoarding them for eBay sale in case he gets fired.
Parent
Re:Step One: (Score:5, Informative)
Maybe the Slashdot editors could post an update explaining that the screenshot on your site is of the scammer's site, and that mailing lists are actually used a lot by non-spammers? Even the Free Software Foundation has its Mailman mailing list software [gnu.org].
I feel sorry for you, in a way... You've become another "victim" of Slashdot, or at least some of its readers, that don't bother to pay attention before commenting on things.
Parent
Har Har Har (Score:5, Funny)
Talk about the mysterious future!
/. it (Score:5, Funny)
Think about it... Just post a link to that site saying that it's a fake, and just watch as it takes a slashdotting.
Now THAT'S how a nerd kicks some butt!
Re:/. it (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:/. it (Score:5, Funny)
I Googled for "MailList King Pro", one of his products, and most of the hits were for serial numbers and cracks...
Parent
Re:/. it (Score:3, Informative)
www.e-buyonline.com
More than just copyright violation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:More than just copyright violation... (Score:4, Insightful)
People who gets tricked gives their personal details, credit card number to such an asshole.
I think developer was too polite or something. I'd do what network solutions suggest, call law department.
His problem is solved but that guy will definitely continue to do business (!) with other peoples software. Why? He didn't have cops showed up at his door.
Remember, because of Bin Laden asshole, Pakistan and USA law departments are nearly connected to each other. I liked to note it for those people who thinks Pakistan is (yes) backward country and they could do nothing about it.
Parent
Re:More than just copyright violation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:More than just copyright violation... (Score:3, Informative)
The difference is that people are under the impression they are buying from the person who created the software or someone authorised by them.
Re:More than just copyright violation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Piracy is one thing. You are getting something for nothing. You *could* place a dollar value based on what the software would normally cost but that's about it.
To misrepresent your self as another company is a form of flat out fraud. In this case someone was getting money for someone else's work, taking credit for someone else's work, and one could argue causing them harm through this misrepresentation. After all the guy was asking for credit card numbers. Not only is there the dollar value of the software someone else profited from but the possibility of harming the character of the rightful owner. Would you do business with a fraudster? Would you use their software or reject it? Would you tell others to reject it?
I will not say piracy is OK in this reply. I will say that bootlegging is greater offence. And to misrepresent your self as being the owner of code that doesn't belong to you and use this lie to make money one would be no better than.... I don't know.... SCO.
Parent
Godwin's Corrolary (Score:4, Funny)
Someone was just compared to SCO. Next thread!
Parent
Re:More than just copyright violation... (Score:4, Insightful)
So, you'll download free software, but you draw the line at paying $2 to download pirated stuff, because you are far too honorable for that. Got it.
Either way, if the software author can't sell his software because it's being distributed (for free, or for cheap) by someone else, he ends up out of business.
Parent
Great job (Score:5, Insightful)
sadly, you know as well as I, it won't be long before your copycat starts up on a new hosting server and does the exact thing again.
He won with a counter threat (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems like he has alot of work to do (Score:4, Interesting)
Good luck buddy.
His effort was not enough (Score:5, Interesting)
--jeff++
Re:His effort was not enough (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.e-buyonline.com/purchase.php and http://www.e-buyonline.com/mk.php still allows you to enter in credit card info to purchase the stolen program.
That's okay, the resulting slashdotting will kill it. :)
In all seriousness, this guy doesn't seem to be beyond the reach of US law. His hosting appears to be from Pakhost, who *tada* keeps their servers in Michigan and Texas.
Remember that DMCA thing we bitch about? Time to write a takedown notice [wikipedia.org] to the hosting company citing the infringing material in question. In addition, once you have collected that information, take a few extra minutes tracking down the legitimate owners of the other software on the site, explain what you did, and share that information.
[ If I'm wrong and his hosting company isn't in the US, a careful inspection of the online store reveals no validation of ording information other than a valid email address. A bitter, wronged coder could write a script to string together valid-looking names, locations, emails, and credit card numbers, then flood their ordering page. It appears that the order information is checked manually, so the above action would end up DOSing their ordering channel. Depending on your location, and the location of the server, this may be very, very illegal, and thus I don't advise it.]
Parent
Still more work to go (Score:5, Interesting)
Check it out:
http://www.e-buyonline.com/maillist.php [e-buyonline.com]
just use his own software against the copycat (Score:4, Funny)
well, sign the copycat loser up to every known source of spam in the universe, as befitting the skills of someone whose product is called "maillist king"
and then watch the copycat's server melt
Not far enough. (Score:5, Insightful)
Send all the emails to the admin at the host.
Do not give this bastard an even break. He obviously will not give others a break.
Anyone paying attention? What's wrong with y'all? (Score:5, Informative)
MailList King is a piece of mailing list software, you know, the kind where you can set up a mailing list for discussion, or use it to send information to your customers. He explains it clearly on his site! Sure, you can probably use it for spam, but that's not the author's fault is it? If MailList King is spamming software, then GNU Mailman [gnu.org] from GNU.ORG is too. Can you all see how ridiculous all this spam talk sounds?
If you people had actually bothered to visit the page and read the text, you would have known that the screenshot is of the scammer's site [e-buyonline.com]. Yes, those bulk e-mail programs, e-mail addresses for sale, and so on, are all completely unrelated to the author of MailList King software, apart from his program and the content of his site being ripped off by a spammer/scammer [e-buyonline.com] (it seems that the scammer has just renamed the software, but he still has the text from the actuall MailList King [xequte.com] page on his site).
As far as I can tell, all the evidence so far clearly shows that the MailList King author is not a spammer or involved in such activities. Until someone posts evidence to the contrary, I suggest that you all stop shouting about spammers when the only spammer here is the guy who ripped off Xecute's software. Seriously, people.
One thing I'm disappointed about, though, is that he didn't follow up on this. The site clearly belongs to a spammer, and he rips off other people's sites and software, making money from spamming and scamming. As mentioned above, he simply renamed the mailing list software, but the product page on the scammer's site [e-buyonline.com] still shows text taken directly from the original page [xequte.com].
I would have hoped that this spammer/scammer could have been nailed down and kicked off the 'net. Perhaps someone else can pick it up from here and track down the scammer to put an end to his online adventure?
That was... Anti-climatic (Score:5, Funny)
Wouldn't it be just terrible... (Score:3, Funny)
A Better Strategry (Score:5, Insightful)
Forward a pointer to the bogus site [e-buyonline.com] to Microsoft's legal department. Notice the name? Notice the font used? Doesn't it look like it's designed to resemble Microsoft's logo? This is precisely the type of thing Microsoft Legal prosecutes with a vengeance.
Hey, just because you hate Microsoft doesn't mean you can't use them to your advantage occasionally...
The guy didn't learn yet-fry him. (Score:3, Informative)
Overkill? (Score:5, Interesting)
okey I had remove the logo and the software completely.
And with that single line I had won. I checked his site and all references to our software were gone.
Boy that really showed him! I'm sorry but I don't think emailing someone and asking them to remove the software "otherwise you will complain to the hosting company" quite constitutes the phrase "steps it took to bring him down". I was hoping for a story of how you chartered a private bounty hunting squad of ex-navy SEALs and pursued him through the jungle while your software was tied to a site under threat of being sold - hell it would have been nice if he'd been sued for $50 but asking him to remove it? Come on - more like "steps it took to send an email asking him to remove it" may be more appropriate!
Make the bastards suffer!
Some digging on e-buyonline.com (Score:5, Informative)
Nigel: I don't know if the original story was dealing with "e-buyonline.com", as someone on slashdot already pointed out it appears they just changed the name of your software and altered your logo (if at all):
"http://www.e-buyonline.com/purchase.php"
Some interesting things I've noticed about the domain:
Name: e-buyonline.com [67.18.82.84]
Aliases: www.e-buyonline.com
root@argc:~> g 67.18.82.84 | m
[whois.geektools.com]
OrgName: ThePlanet.com Internet Services, Inc.
Address: 1333 North Stemmons Freeway
Address: Suite 110, Dallas, TX 75207
Phone: 214-782-7800, Fax: 214-782-7801
Inverse DNS: welcome.topakistan.com [67.18.82.84]
ToPakistan.com Registrant Contact:
Welcome.ToPakistan.com
Khalil Ahmad (khalil@paksys.com)
+92.427596659 , Fax: +92.427583039
6-L, 73 Business Center, Shadman
Lahore, PUNJAB 54000 PK
I take it that's where your pak***.net (and also paksys.com is the same company, maps to the same IP address and WHOIS registration data)
WHOIS Administrative Contact:
Ahmad, Khalil khalil@paksys.com
116 Salem Road, North Brunswick, NJ 08902
732-297-8908, Fax: 732-297-8906
They are a U.S. company. The phone number confirms they are paksys software, also a gander at their website shows the same address and phone number. Calling the New Jersey phone number reveals someone with a thick Arab accent announcing "you have reached paksys software..."
They are located INSIDE the U.S., telco exchange shows that prefix (732-297) to be in Franklin Park, NJ.
Their hosting website also shows the same information, their "U.S." address available for visits by appointment only (could be a residence)
https://www.pakhost.com/?sect=0&subsect=40
The State of New Jersey will sell you the company filing information for a nominal fee, it looks like PAK SYS SOFTWARE is listed, their file # is
ID: 0400053874, go to the State of NJ's Business Entity search at
https://accessnet.state.nj.us/GatewayWatchNameS
Start with filing a complaint with the New Jersey state attorney general, this could get you some type of response (though I noticed you're
in New Zealand.
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/
Consumer Complaint form:
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/ocp/ocpform.htm
Franklin Park, NJ is in Somerset county, start at:
http://www.co.somerset.nj.us/
Toni Arts has a worse problem (Score:5, Interesting)
The 'Official' Toni Arts page now:
http://personal.inet.fi/business/toniarts/index.h
and the unofficial 'ripped off' one:
http://www.toniarts.com/ [toniarts.com]
If ever a site needs removing, it's that one
7 Steps To Infringer Takedown (Score:5, Informative)
- Immediately(!) purchase the stolen software, using a Mastercard or Visa. The resulting download is evidence, and the purchase itself will be used later. Make every effort to identify who (URL, domain name, contact info, company name, etc.) is actually processing this credit card transaction (hint: it's usually not the kid in Pakistan).
- Notify the contact info of the domain of the infringement. Use a DMCA-compliant notification.
- Notify the next upstream ISP of that domain of same.
- Notify the domain's registrar. Some have TOS which forbid illegal activity.
- Is the bad guy still up? Then start notifying the credit card processor that they have participated in a sale of stolen goods. Use a letter that calmly documents the date of purchase, how you identified the download as a stolen copy of your software, etc.
- When your credit card bill arrives, follow the instructions on the back of the bill to contest that purchase. Inform the credit card company of everything that's happened, including dates and times and copies of correspondence
- Join the ASP [asp-shareware.org]. It's a chance to notify fellow software producers that their software is being ripped off along with yours (and increase the pressure on a particular pirate site). It's also a way of supporting an organization that works to support your right to make a living selling software.
The linchpin in this effort is credit card processing. I don't care if you live on a small island that you rule yourself, if you take Mastercard/Visa transactions, you rely on American companies and American law. These giant companies grant smaller companies the right to parcel out merchant accounts, and they can cause non-trivial financial pain for merchant accounts that generate too many complaints for them.The wheels of the law can take much time to grind to a conclusion, and not always in your favor. Visa/Mastercard can issue a $20,000 fine in a much shorter time, and they don't have to consult a jury.
In the Wild West of Internet fraud that involves money flow, Mastercard/Visa is judge, jury, and executioner. Most victims simply don't know enough to bring their case to them, or the amount of fraud would be dropping.
Just a question (Score:5, Insightful)
Today we have this story where someone was selling pirated software taking credit from the creator, but because this wasn't some giant software company overwhelming there are modded responses about "way to go", "stick it to 'em", etc. etc.
My questions is what is the difference between yesterday and today? Both folks committed copyright, trademark, and fraud, but because its the work of some smaller outfit it is more of an evil than the same thing happening to "Evil giant corperations"?
Piracy is theft. Fraud is Fraud. Infrigement is Infrigement. End of story. It doesn't matter if its small guy or giant huge megacorp.
I hope that the creator(s) of this program nail this guy and take 'em to the cleaners. Its times like these that lawyers are not an evil word and lawsuits in federal court aren't either.
Re:MailList: Used by Spammers? (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, some of the tools the software provides do look like being tailored towards the bulk advertising market...but they too also have some legitimate use...
Parent
Re:MailList: Used by Spammers? (Score:5, Insightful)
Give us a break. Can't have it both ways. The guy is just trying to make a living. If someone uses it to send spam, it's THEM that are at fault, not the writer of the software.
It's the same as guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Parent
Re:MailList: Used by Spammers? (Score:4, Insightful)
Mailing lists are useful to:
-clubs
-websites with subscriptions
-charities
-schools
-businesses
-newsletters
-friends
and all of these are legitimate uses. I am not denying that spammers use these tools as well, but far more legitimate users use bulk mailing programs (think of the tens of thousands of clubs, websites, charities etc who use them) than spammers. Spammers may generate more email, I agree. But there are more legitimate mailing lists than spammers.
P2P, as I understand it, uses over 50% of the traffic on the internet (random source from google search) [cachelogic.com], so I think it could be said it does a lot more damage to the internet through being a bandwidth hog.
Don't get me wrong, spam is a royal pain in the arse. But the guy has done nothing wrong. And the fact that his software is a useful tool for a few spammers doesn't change the fact that most users are likely to be using it for legitimate purposes. Most spam is sent from Windows computers. Most windows computers are not used for spam. The developers of windows are not at fault for the other uses their software is used for (like running 3rd party spam apps).
What you are saying is that Microsoft should stop complaining about pirated software because they are responsible for most spam, so the sell software to exactly the sort of people who pirate their software.
Parent
Re:MailList: Used by Spammers? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes his software does make it easy to send email messages to alot of people, but there are uses other than spam for that. Not everyone knows how to use or knows about open source mailing list software. For novices, guis are good.
Just browsing his site and forums, it doesnt appear that he intents this software to be used by spammers. Though the name really sucks.
Used by spammers? maybe.. but i dont think it would give you great performance as other software will.
Parent
Re:MailList: Used by Spammers? (Score:4, Informative)
Agreed. This guy deserves the benifit of the doubt on this one.
If you take a look at his other software [xequte.com] it is clear that his business is not spam-centric.
Maillist King is no "SpamShoveler 3000" either, as it doesn't have many of the features that I see in the spam I have been regularly receiving.
Also, there are legitimate businesses that send out mailings to customers. There are a couple that I don't mind receiving that tells me about new stuff on the shelves.
So the criticisms are not justified IMHO.
Parent
Re:MailList: Used by Spammers? (Score:5, Informative)
Look at the guy's site [xequte.com] before you spout off. He has a lot of other software, most of it related to graphics. And MailList, like any mailing software, could be used for spamming, but its features seem more designed for (legit) mailings, discussion lists, etc. I don't think it has stealth features, to hide the sender, add chaff to confuse filters, and other such that would mark it as evil by design.
Parent
Re:MailList: Used by Spammers? (Score:4, Interesting)
Is this karma? Well, maybe so. But two wrongs don't make a right. The proper way of dealing with this guy - if his program really is intended to aid spammers - is to make his software illegal or, better yet, convince him to stop writing and selling it. And even then, stealing and reselling the program is hardly an effective vigilante response!
Parent
Re:Hardly steps (Score:5, Informative)
Nigel Cross
Parent
Re:Hardly steps (Score:3, Insightful)
Fh
Re:Spam software? (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Spam software? (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re: Spam Software (Score:3, Insightful)
Sometimes mailing lists need to be anonymous.
Re:Shouldn't he just change his business model? (Score:3)
Theft is removing an item or service from someone, so that the owner is deprived of it.
Copyright infringement is duplication of an item or service. Copyright infringement doesn't even mean a sale would have been made even if the copy weren't made.
But that topic's been done to death everywhere in
And personally, I don't "Infringe Copyright" because I can afford to pay for the services I want. So I pay for what I want/nee