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Free IDE Gambas Reaches 1.0

Posted by timothy on Wed Jan 05, 2005 04:58 AM
from the activate-the-gimp-name-complainers dept.
Programming IT Technology
A few months ago, the GPL IDE Gambas reached 1.0 release candidate phase, and now reader drfreak writes "Gambas has now hit 1.0 and looks promising as GNU/Linux's answer to Visual Basic. Now, if it ran in Windows too, it would truly crush VB for database applications. Check it out at gambas.sourceforge.net." A 1.0.1 release came out on January 3rd to fix a few bugs.
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  • Best logo (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Uukrul (835197) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @05:05AM (#11262116)
    NI think that the project is good enough to try to get a new design (and a new logo).
    This project with a more professional look can be a great success.
    Any thesigners out there?

  • So now it's ok to like VB? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Ok, so when you have all the features you laughed and belittled in Visual Basic on linux, there ok all of a sudden?

    • Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by RenatoRam (446720) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @05:15AM (#11262144)
      I guess VB is belittled not because of features, but because of the horrid quality of common vb apps.

      And for the poor quality of the language.

      And 'cause it tends to change and be incompatible from version to version ...and so on...

      Will gambas apps be better than vb apps? If they are written by the same monkeys I don't think so.

      The release of gambas IS great news, however, simply 'cause now we can reply to the endless "there is no simple RAD solution under linux" rants with "then use gambas, you fool!"
      • Code monkeys do the best that they could as you can see graphically [frmb.org].
      • We already have a nice, cross platform language and graphical toolkit - Tcl combined with Tk. Or Python, if you like that.

          • Re:Tcl Tk (Score:3, Informative)

            by hobbs (82453)
            As noted in a previous response, Tk actually has a themed widget extension call tile:

            http://tktable.sourceforge.net/tile/ [sourceforge.net]

            This works well enough for production apps now, but it will also become part of the Tk core in the near future. They interoperate with all existing Tk widgets, and the extension works with Perl's Tcl::Tk binding and with Tkinter.

            Even without that, it is not more than a dozen lines of code to polish up the look of most Tk apps, it is just that many don't put that last spit and po
    • Well, with VB you can atleast release your program under whatever license you want without paying fees to a Norwegian company :-)
      • with VB You have to pay to an american company to release under ANY licence.

        • Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (Score:5, Interesting)

          by danheskett (178529) <(moc.liamg) (ta) (tteksehnad)> on Wednesday January 05 2005, @06:53AM (#11262389)
          That's not true. You have to license the software if you wan't the IDE. You can develop very happily from the command line and compile and distribute or sell till your heart is complete via the .NET SDK. You get free compilers and headers and access to 100% of the features of the .NET runtime.

          Plus there are *never* any runtime or distribution royalities.

          Ohh, one more thing. If you are a VB programmer or a C# programmer, you should investigate Mono with GTK#.
    • VB was only ever meant to be a rapid prototyping tool. You knock up a quick'n'dirty VB version as a proof of concept, then you write the proper version in a more robust language. Unfortunately the management/lazy coders almost always step in with "but we have a working version there.. lets release that".

      If people used VB in the way it was meant to be used noone would have any complaints about it. (well, fewer complaints at least..)

      • Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Spacejock (727523) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @06:07AM (#11262282) Homepage
        I can never understand this attitude towards VB.

        The reliability of apps written in VB has nothing to do with the language, and everything to do with the programmer. If you slap some code together, run it to make sure there are no syntax errors and then release it as version 1.0 how is that a fault with Visual Basic?

        Without wanting to blow my own trumpet, I get many emails thanking me for my useful, stable programs, every one of which is written in VB. They're not simple apps, either - my major project is over 6 megs of source code.

        VB allows me to code efficiently, quickly and with a minimum of errors, and until I come across something which allows me to code even quicker, even more efficiently and with even less errors I'm sticking with it.

        I'm not claiming to be some guru level programmer, I'm just pointing out that it's a bit hard blaming VB for bad software just because beginners can dash in and code the World's Best Program in their lunch break.

        Anyway, look on the positive side: If all those beginners started out with C# you'd have thousands of crappy, bug-ridden programs written in that language, and the 'VB generates crap' argument would go up in smoke.
        • You missed the point in my post. Coders write quick'n'dirty VB apps with the intention of redoing them in (for example) C++ later. The management then come in and want to release the quick'n'dirty version. I'm not suggesting you can't write robust VB code, I'm saying lots of people don't.

          Besides which, Microsoft realised people use VB as a proper language instead of a RAD tool now, and they smartened it up a lot a few versions ago. Go back to the mid 90s and VB was NOT a stable dev platform.
        • VB has really terrible exception handling which DOES make it hard to write reliable code. It also has pathetic data structures which makes it difficult to write efficient code.

        • VB allows me to code efficiently, quickly and with a minimum of errors, and until I come across something which allows me to code even quicker, even more efficiently and with even less errors I'm sticking with it.

          What else have you tried? I'm doing some VB work at the moment, and I'm finding it bloody horrible - I'd much rather be using python or (ugh) PHP.

          VB is full of irritations - the almost-but-not exception handling (ON ERROR GOTO); the horrible inconsistencies, like a different syntax for calling f

      • VB is a Rapid Application *development* tool, not a Rapid Application *prototyping* tool.

        Of course, many can and do create prototype and throw-away applications using VB, but it is good tool for developing many serious Windows applications.

        If the design is right and the code is clean and maintainable, what exactly would be the advantage in recoding it in C++ (assuming execution speed is not an issue and even then, just critical parts can be written in C++ and put in a DLL)?

        I have developed app in VB and

    • Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by juhaz (110830) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @06:24AM (#11262314) Homepage
      No, it's not ok.

      I wonder how tightly this is tied to the Basic implementation, and if it would be possible to switch the underlying language to something decent - say, python - without basically rewriting the whole mess?

    • Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Alright, slow down, here comes some hard to grok stuff:

      Everything cool? Ok, let's go on...

      Do you think that it's possible that the Linux community consists of DIFFERENT personalities with DIFFERENT opinions? Just maybe? And that the people who hate VB still hate VB and others who didn't think VB sucks to start with started this project?

      I know, I know, this was too hard for you, but maybe try to sleep a few nights over it, maybe one day you will be able to understand such difficult concepts...

  • Killer Application (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 05 2005, @05:06AM (#11262121)
    Rant and hiss all you want. This application has the potential to move an entire generation of mid-40ish "Windows and VB4 still works for me" people - who are basically stating the truth - to Linux / OSS enviroments.

    And no Blahblah about Eclipse Basic being somewhere close to RAD or QTDevelop being a sort-of half way kinda RAD tool and "whats all the excitement about, I only need Perl and a few bazillion extra libs and dependency resoltions to write nice TK-Apps that are ugly as hell" will change that.

    As for me, I'm sold. Congratulations to the Gambas team.

    • Tk getting a makeover (Score:5, Interesting)

      by DavidNWelton (142216) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @05:52AM (#11262244) Homepage
      It's called "tile" and the goal is to make Tk look native on all platforms, in a 21st century sort of way.

      http://tktable.sourceforge.net/tile/ [sourceforge.net]

      Combine that with starkits [equi4.com], and you have 0 dependencies. Just distribute one file.
    • Absolute Bingo. Nice post.

      I see a major opportunity for Gambas and the hundreds (or thousands) VB/ASP shops that cannot afford to take the .NET plunge. An intermediary step would be a Godsend (with eventual consideration to a .NET interpreter..maybe).

      There are only three items that are missing: MSSQL support, Windows environment support, ASP/Apache.

      Even if companies do not decide to run it on a Linux platform, they would still want to switch their VB to Gambase because: a.) no lockin, b.) Support is o

  • Looks Good (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ibentmywookie (819547) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @05:07AM (#11262122)
    I haven't used it for a while, but back then it didn't have an MDI interface, which I didn't like.

    I prefer all the windows to be under the control of a single parent window. I guess it's the same reason why the GIMP interface is kind of annoying.

    However, on Linux, if you give the app it's own desktop to sit on, it's manageable.

  • project's aims (from site) (Score:5, Informative)

    by mincognito (839071) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @05:09AM (#11262126)
    This project aims at making a graphical development environment based on a Basic interpreter, so that we have a language like Visual Basic(TM) under Linux(TM). The phenomenal quantity of bugs and inconsistencies that makes Visual Basic so delightful persuaded me to start this project ;-) It seems that Microsoft is aware of the poor quality of its language, as VB .Net is not backward compatible with older versions of Visual Basic. I think they have thrown away the Visual Basic interpreter source code, and that VB .Net is just a .Net runtime compiler whose syntax looks like the Visual Basic one. Well, it's just my own opinion... ;-) I want to clear up any misunderstanding immediately. Gambas does not try to be compatible with Visual Basic, and will never be. I'm convinced that its syntax and internals are far better than the one's of its proprietary cousin ;-) I took from Visual Basic what I found useful : the Basic language, the development environment, and the easiness to quickly make programs with user interfaces. But I dislike the very bad level of common Visual Basic programmers, often due to bad pratices imposed by the bugs and strangeness of this language. So I will try to make Gambas as coherent, logical and reliable as possible, and I hope that Gambas programmers will make effort in return ! ;-) At the moment, I'm looking for programming help. The kernel of Gambas is now stabilized, if not well documented. There is a component example to help people learning how to write components. I hope other people will join me to help to increase the possibilities of the language. There is so much to do !

  • Cluttered IDE (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Osty (16825) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @05:12AM (#11262137) Homepage

    Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't like the "spread-out" IDE layout they've got going on here [sourceforge.net]. It reminds me too much of the GIMP, and not in a good way. Perhaps it's my Windows background, but I want a single window with toolboxes and sidebars inside that window (see Visual Studio or KDevelop [kdevelop.org]). This "Let's have a bunch of floating windows with nothing tying them together" approach just makes me think the developers are trying to copy Mac apps rather than Windows apps, with the main drawback of not having a single app menu across the top of the screen to tie everything together (yes, I know that various desktop environments can optionally move app menus to the top of the screen, but how consistent are they? Will they keep the menu from the "Project" window up top when I have the "Toolbox" window focused? Do they know that the "Properties" window and code window are related, and should raise together?). I'm not saying that copying from either is bad or wrong, just that if you're going to do it, do it right.

    • Re:Cluttered IDE (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Lussarn (105276) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @05:36AM (#11262209)
      I don't think they are copying either windows or mac, they are merely following what have been the unix way for the last 10 years. On unix we have virtual desktops and they are there to be used.

      • BS (Score:4, Insightful)

        by brunes69 (86786) <[slashdot] [at] [keirstead.org]> on Wednesday January 05 2005, @06:45AM (#11262373) Homepage
        Loads of top-level tool windows is a usability nightmare. It os not intuitive at all, and a new user has a hell of a time figuring out what things are in what window.

        There is a reason both the Gnome and KDE projects have HCI guidelines. And this app doesn't follow either of them.

    • Re:Cluttered IDE (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Tarwn (458323) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @06:26AM (#11262319) Homepage
      I agree with your sentiments, despite what other may say. That is/was the biggest turn off for Gimp for me. I actually find it to be an obstacle in using the program because there is nothing tying them together (maybe it's a coneptual gap, I don't like having to think about it every time). I don't necessarally need my applications to all have slide-out tool panes like Visual Studio, but a background container with the option to dock windows on the sides or toolbar does wonders for keeping all the various bits of the application together, allowing me to focus on doing what I am doing without accidentally switching focus to a browser or terminal I left open.
      Sure once I get everything shuffled to another window I don't worry as much, and some people might be comfortable "outside the box" with their applications, but I would prefer to stay inside the box, thank you. I don't think this is a revolutionary interface design concept, I think it is an interesting one that doesn't quite work as well as was expected.

      If I am going to work on an application then my preference would be to siomply work on it, without pausing every 5 seconds to think about where to find a toolbox i sent to the background. Now in window 3 of 4 and crap, did I lose 4 somewhere?
      That's one of the elements I liked about Paintshop Pro: the floating, dockable, collapsible menus. Everything was kept in the one application area and you could pretty much put the boxes anywhere you wanted, but being inside that window made the toolboxes naturally belong to the application. Plus I could get more screen acreage simply by allowing them to collapse, without losing them into the background.
    • Some of us who use and develop Gambas agree with you. I began work on an MDI IDE [kudla.org] for Gambas a year and a half ago, and released actual working code, but the language was such a moving target at that time (version 0.57) that I had to abandon it. I hope to produce one for Gambas 1.0 in the near future, and Benoit plans to add MDI functionality to the IDE in the development series for 2.0.
  • Consider that already REALBasic 5.5 is loads ahead of this project in that much of the syntax is VB like, yet you can release one app simulataneously on Mac OS 9, OS X, Windows and Linux.

    I don't see the advantage here... sure it's not free software but it works DAMN well. I have created a few small utilites internally for my company as well as a little CD Cataloging program just to teach myself the ins and outs of the language, but for those times I want to make something run as a non-web based application
      • Consider that already REALBasic 5.5 is loads ahead of this project in that much of the syntax is VB like, yet you can release one app simulataneously on Mac OS 9, OS X, Windows and Linux. ... sure it's not free software but it works DAMN well.

      You're right it ain't free - It's $600 for the version that will work for all three OSes, or a grand if you want a 12 month subscription. Kind of steep for those of us who just fool around with computers for fun rather than work.

  • I finished university just before everything had to be object oriented, so I have my base in procedural languages. Granted, I can see a lot of advantages in OO, but why does everything has to be OO these days? Both Gambas and Visual Basic are now OO languages. If I wanted OO I'd chose Java or C++. But what if I don't want OO?
    • 'cause OO is way easier for team writing and huge projects. It's way easier to split the project into many "single man" or "single small team" tasks, then bind them all together through an easy to use and strictly defined methods with well defined "responsiblity" areas. The difference isn't all that big, except of some "protectionism" (private, public), simplification of some processes (inheritance instead of notorious evil "copy&paste") and strict defining of "responsiblity areas" (objects), instead of

  • I don't believe... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Vo0k (760020) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @05:20AM (#11262168) Journal
    I don't believe any open source solution in any near future could crush the Microsoft alternatives in the software development field.
    The problem is that HERE marketing matters. Home users are free to pick a web browser or operating system of their choice. But when a big system for some business/industry is being developed, the platform decisione are made by the middle-to-upper management. And these guys really -believe- what Microsoft marketing people tell them. So the programmers, people who actually know a thing about the options don't really get the voice in most of the projects. "So... This guy at EXPO told me Visual Basic would solve all these problems. So we write the application in Visual Basic." There is no way the majority of the "big fishes" in programming could accept a hardly known free software language instead of the "famous, widely used Microsoft product" without the right marketing, and without some large funding behind the marketing...

    Unless Sun, IBM or someone else with enough $$$ and not too much love for Microsoft backs up the project and takes care of marketing and promoting it. But the chances are very slim.
  • The last time I used BASIC was 20 years ago, when I was six -- and I'll be damned if I ever come back.
    We got so many programming languages -- good ones and bad ones, that is simply doesn't make any sense altogether to use a Cobol-lookalike. Repent, folks!
  • I think VB is a doorway for programmers who eventually get serious. Anybody who knows anything knows that VB isn't the language to program enterprise-class software. Still, VB is a good way to get the kids interested, and some of them grow up to be engineers. If this language really is the Linux equivelant to VB, you OSS guys should be happy, considering how this, (or something like this) may affect Linux's future.

  • Funny wallpapers ... (Score:3, Funny)

    by invi (198857) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @05:33AM (#11262204) Homepage
    Oh well ... but they *do* have funny [sourceforge.net] wallpapers [sourceforge.net] ... and notice the clever placement of the windows, guess MDI has its advantages after all :)

  • Crush VB for database apps? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Jugalator (259273) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @05:39AM (#11262215) Journal
    Now, if it ran in Windows too, it would truly crush VB for database applications.

    Hrm.. Like the Windows flag is burnt [sourceforge.net]?
    I wonder if it was really that necessary to be so childish, right on their front page.

    It doesn't help their cause anyway, or defeat generalizations about "Linux being for childish basement geeks".

    Oh well... To my question: Why would it crush VB .NET 2003 for database apps? Do you mean db apps in general? Or just a specific kind of db apps? What's so revolutionary about this package in that area? I couldn't find anything on their Gambas feature list even mentioning databases, except:

    "Finish and clean the database component."

    Oh, the irony!

  • Cluttered IDE (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Quixadhal (45024) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @06:48AM (#11262378) Journal
    I have to agree. I abhorr interfaces like the Gimp (which is a fine program, shackled with a not so fine UI), and find it far too easy to lose the various toolbars under other things. It might not be so bad if clicking on any one UI element would bring the entire thing to the top...

    --off topic--

    This just reminds me that Linux peope STILL can't develop their own breakthroughs. We STILL feel compelled to try and mimic whatever comes out of Redmond, or those fruity mac people (*grin*, my Mom has one so I feel justified in that jab).

    What's the number one complaint people have with Microsoft's GUI? Inconsistancy. What's the one thing Linux (or any Open Source movement for that matter) will never really have? Consistancy. Yeah, call me a doomsayer, but as long as everyone clings to the adage of allowing everyone to code whatever they like, there will never BE a consistant standard interface on the Linux desktop.

    Shoot, X is almost (more than?) 20 years old now and we still can't get a single consistant cut-and-paste buffer that works across every X application!

    Sorry for the rant, but I'm just horrified that the desktop movement has made so little progress since I started using Linux back in 1994. Back then, an X11R5 desktop on a 486/66 with 16M of ram using TVTWM as a window manager would run circles around the equivalent win95 box. Now, every time I pull up X with KDE and type "free", I cringe seeing how much memory it sucks up. I use linux for my servers, and love it... but I use that other OS for my desktop as I don't have to fight with it every day.

  • VBRUN300.dll Not found? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by geminidomino (614729) * on Wednesday January 05 2005, @07:16AM (#11262440) Homepage Journal
    For anyone who's never seen the error message above: can Gambas programs be compiled and distributed without being packed solid with loads of seperate controls and libraries? Or would the user have to download and install gambas him/herself?

  • Just one guy (Score:3, Insightful)

    by spectrokid (660550) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @07:50AM (#11262534) Homepage
    I think it is amazing such a big project can be done by just one guy working on it part-time (read his personals). If he can do such a thing on his own, then how comes we haven't had super-duper RAD tools with IDE in Linux for years?

  • To all the cry babies (Score:5, Insightful)

    by codepunk (167897) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @08:48AM (#11262865) Homepage
    I actually downloaded the source a few days ago and compiled and installed it. I find that it is a extremely well done VB like environement for linux. Any day I can get a decent programming ide complete with the source and licensed under the GPL it is a wonderful day.

    1. The app uses multiple windows but guess what if you don't like that then make it a single window interface. The ide is written in gambus so a little refactoring and you can have a single window interface.

    2. It is extremely complete for a 1.0 release and the design of the interpreter, debugger, libraries are all rather complete.

    3. I can build a gui front end to a my sql table with barely a dozen lines of code.

    4. The language is not actually VB it is improved and corrected VB.

    5. It had a project packager that is extremely well done.

    6. The forms designer is fairly top notch and easy to work with.

    Ok when all you cry babies get done writing your own interpreter, compiler, ide and make it work even half as well come back and talk to me, till then shut up. No I have no involvment in the project other than using it a little but I applaud the developer for his efforts.

    It is a gift people, treat it as such...

  • Gambas 1.0 - a free gift (Score:5, Insightful)

    by UglyMike (639031) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @09:40AM (#11263243)
    God, you people can be such bastards....
    Here is a guy, single handedly building a full, self-hosted, VB-like development environment on Linux as a gift to the community and all you people do is shit all over his project.
    Why Basic? Why QT? Why MDI? Why funny pictures on the main page? Why not .NET?
    Python is better! Realbasic is better! Mono is better!
    It's open source for crying out loud!! Don't like MDI? Change it! (after all it is self hosting) Think REALBasic is better? Fine, go buy that then! Prefer Mono's VB? OK, sit around and wait a bit longer. Don't like the site's informal look? Where is your mockup of a better one then?
    Let's face it. The only reason you're all bitching (most of you anyways..) is that you're too THICK to change any of it! I'm reading the developer forum and I see no patches coming in from any of you offering SDI, GTK+, .NET compatibility, Python plug-ins etc.
    Bunch of ingrates....

      • Re:Gambas 1.0 - a free gift (Score:5, Insightful)

        by WinterSolstice (223271) on Wednesday January 05 2005, @11:26AM (#11264230)
        No, big difference.
        Movie critics are complaining about a multi-million dollar production they PAID to see.
        Food critics are complaining about a meal they PAID to eat.

        These idiots are like the bitch who goes to a potluck without anything to share, and just complains about all the food.

        You don't have to like this stuff, you don't have to use this stuff, but you don't have to be a jerk about it.

        Hell, I hate the layout of the SAPNet system, I hate the layout of the MSKB. But I pay to access them all the same. This guy? His stuff is at least free.

        Personally, I like Gambas, and I like the site. I don't do BASIC much anymore, but I might actually try it out. After all, anything so many slashdotters compain about has to be good.

        -WS

  • On related news... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Spy der Mann (805235) <spydermann@slashdot.gmail@com> on Wednesday January 05 2005, @05:34PM (#11269614) Homepage Journal
    Cross-platform (non-RAD... yet) C++ IDE "codeblocks" [codeblocks.org] (developed by a former Dev-C++ developer) version 1.0b4 was released yesterday.

    • Re:DOA (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      One glance at your post tells me you are trolling. So one look at a screenshot that is probably meant to showcase as much of the application as possible tells you that it is cluttered and unusable?

      I'm impressed.

      I'm also getting tired of this constant whining about not doing it the MS way. Interestingly I never see these kind of complaints about OSX software, though even MS products are not using an MDI interface on OSX. So not doing it the MS way certainly doesn't say anything about the usability of an ap
    • Dude I love python as much as the next python coder but QT designer does not actually support python natively does it? Last time I used it I could build a interface with it then I had to write a bunch of code to load the screens, set event handlers and a bunch of other crap. This gambas thing is one language but it is all integrated not a afterthought hack.

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