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LiveCD Lets You Try Out Project Looking Glass

Posted by timothy on Wed Mar 02, 2005 04:36 PM
from the slick-interface dept.
GUI Software Sun Microsystems Linux
remember_beos writes "Sun created Project Looking Glass (LG3D) as a 'proof of concept' not long ago. It is an environment for Linux, like KDE or Gnome, but with some really great 3D functionality. More than just eye-candy, LG3D provides functional use of an extra spatial dimension on your desktop. Now there is a LiveCD for us all to try it out."
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LiveCD Lets You Try Out Project Looking Glass 50 Comments More /

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  • Video link (Score:5, Informative)

    by Virtual Karma (862416) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:37PM (#11827794) Homepage
    Here is a link to the video: http://www.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.xml [sun.com]

    • Re:Video link (Score:5, Funny)

      by PatrickThomson (712694) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @05:25PM (#11828420)
      Nice going, you managed to slashdot the sun, I guess we'll have to implode Saturn now.

      • The Sun is Out (Score:3, Interesting)

        by fm6 (162816)
        Actually, a lot of Sun sites are rather flaky today. Not very impressive, coming from the company whose motto is "The Network is the Computer."

        They're claiming this is "Java-based". Never heard of this kind of stuff running any way except as native code. A breakthrough in VM technology, or more abuse of the Java "brand"?

        The Schwartz demo provoked lots of applause, but I was pretty underwhelmed. There are a few cool-looking visual effects, like turning a window over so you can write on the back. But no

  • Acknowledgements in TFA (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:38PM (#11827797)
    This project owns much to Chevol Davis who contributed unvaluable [wiktionary.org] serverspace and bandwidth.
    Nice to know that they appreciate all the crappy things they are given :) (at least according to current usage)

  • Worth it? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Kimos (859729) <kimos,slashdot&gmail,com> on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:38PM (#11827804) Homepage
    To me this says all show and no productivity. I'll get a live CD and play with it, but I doubt it'll be worth using to actually get something accomplished.

    Isn't it rough on the video card to have it 3D rendering at any point the the OS is loaded?

    • Re:Worth it? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Junks Jerzey (54586) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:42PM (#11827856)
      Isn't it rough on the video card to have it 3D rendering at any point the the OS is loaded?

      Isn't this what video cards or for? You might as well ask if it's rough on the CPU.
      • Maybe I'm remembering back in the day of my first "good" video card. I was running rendered screen savers (cause it was uber-cool at that point) and the card was having heat issues. Guess things have changed eh?

    • Re:Worth it? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by DavidLeblond (267211) <me AT davidleblond DOT com> on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:48PM (#11827946) Homepage
      I don't know, ask Apple. Their UI uses the GPU and it has for awhile now.

    • Re:Worth it? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Mark_MF-WN (678030) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:51PM (#11827991)
      You bet. These video cards can handle marathon 12 hour gaming sessions, but they're gonna break like matchsticks under the burden of running a WINDOWING system.
          • Especially given that a 3D windowing system will totally under-utilize even the cheapest of modern video cards. If my roommate's $30 bargain bin video card can run UT2004's million polygons per second for six hours with a smooth framerate, I think it can handle rendering five or six window polygons per second on behalf of the windowing system.

                  • Re:Worth it? (Score:4, Insightful)

                    by Mark_MF-WN (678030) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @07:53PM (#11829785)
                    You're making the totally unreasonable assumption that the video card would keep everything in its own memory, all the time. Video games don't do this and neither would a 3D windowing system.

                    UIs are fantastically simple compared to games. They rarely contain more than a few thousand screen elements, only a small fraction of which are active at any time.

                    Have you noticed that XWindows (as it stands now) can easily handle dozens of windows without depleting main memory? I have 18 maximized windows running right now at 1280x1024x32 resolution. Guess how much main memory X is using? 27MB -- rather than the 90MB your naive calculations would suggest. And I can activate any one of those windows so quickly that I don't perceive the time it takes to drag the windows contents up from the swap space.

                    You don't seem to really understand how graphics systems work. The only things that need to take up video card memory are the pixels visible on screen. ANYTHING else in video memory is there simply to speed things up a little and take the burden off of the system bus. UI elements rarely change, most of them aren't visible, most of them aren't animated, and most of them are so ridiculously simple that the video cards texture compression algorithms (available on EVERY video card manufactured since 1998) can squeeze them down to practically nothing. UIs can afford much higher latencies than the 60fps necessary to convincingly render a video game.

                    I could go on and on. The point is, UIs are painfully, appallingly simple from a 3D standpoint. That's why people want to windowing to the video card in the first place. Any video card that can handle Quake2 can eat the most complex GUI imaginable for breakfast.

  • Now My Desktop can be like my apartment (Score:5, Interesting)

    by moofdaddy (570503) * on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:39PM (#11827816) Homepage
    From what I understand of this project it is very cool. With that extra spatial dimmension you will take what is already a cluttered desktop and make it mess in 3D. Now my computer can look more like my apartnemt.

    In all seriousness though this is really a neat concept. I use a lot of space for my video editing programs. They require a title program, an animator, a sound mixer, a couple of editors, etc. Now this will take my ordinary 15 inch screen and give it dimenssion which will make my life a lot more producitve and a lot oless facinating.

  • Maintenance Notice (Score:5, Funny)

    by fembots (753724) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:40PM (#11827834) Homepage
    Maintenance notice: Saturday, 3/5 noon - 1 pm PST, maintenance to our hosting center could cause interruptions in site access during this period.

    What speed are you guys getting at the moment? Looks like the "maintenance" has come early.

  • I got your screen shots right here (Score:4, Informative)

    by moofdaddy (570503) * on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:41PM (#11827848) Homepage
    http://www.sun.com/software/looking_glass/details. xml [sun.com]

    Check it out, very cool looking

  • I dunno.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Psykus (827143) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:44PM (#11827886)
    I tried something similar for Windows XP some time ago, I didn't really see any advantages over using a normal, 2D interface. Perhaps this 3D interface is different, but the whole thing seems pretty gimicky to me. Kind of like having a 3D interface, just to say you have a 3D interface, not because of any inherent benefits of using it.

    Also, is this a window manager akin to Gnome or KDE, or does it run on top of either one? The window decorations and stuff look pretty fugly IMHO.

    • Re:I dunno.... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by KingPrad (518495) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @06:06PM (#11828834)
      I just thought of a way this might be made useful. It depends on sensing the location of the user's head. It would work so that a user could tilt his head like he's trying to see 'around' to the other side of the spherical interface and the window manager would rotate in the windows/information from that side. So if you are looking at a text editor and need to check out a document momentarily you could crane your neck (I'm talking a slight gesture, not really craning, but the same motion) and the web browser that is pushed off to the side would slide back in. You could read what you need to, then go back the other way to see the editor.

      Perhaps a head position sensor would provide intelligent focusing for the extra dimensions? I can see something like this being useful in any window manager. You could do it with a camera and some custom recognition software perhaps, so no extra sensor would be required.

      I personally would really like it if I could scroll a document or switch desktops (or the view of a very large desktop) with slight head gestures.

      • Re:I dunno.... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by suckmysav (763172) <suckmysav AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday March 02 2005, @07:23PM (#11829538) Journal
        " I just thought of a way this might be made useful. It depends on sensing the location of the user's head. It would work so that a user could tilt his head like he's trying to see 'around' to the other side of the spherical interface and the window manager would rotate in the windows/information from that side. So if you are looking at a text editor and need to check out a document momentarily you could crane your neck (I'm talking a slight gesture, not really craning, but the same motion) and the web browser that is pushed off to the side would slide back in. "

        And the first thing a new user would do would be to get on the internet to find out how they can turn that goddamn crap off.

        Sheesh. The last thing I want to do when using a PC is to have to ensure that I remain absolutely motionless lest my GUI start flipping windows all over the place.

        I suggest you pitch that idea to the folks at Redmond ASAP. It might be just what we need to start turning people away from their Windows boxen in droves.

  • ISO link (Score:5, Informative)

    by scottied (788920) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:46PM (#11827922) Homepage Journal
    It looks like looking glass is gonna be slashdotted... heres the ISO link.

    http://66.194.210.2/lg3d.iso [66.194.210.2]

    Not going very fast... torrent anyone??

  • Forget the LiveCD (Score:4, Interesting)

    by J. T. MacLeod (111094) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:48PM (#11827953)
    I want to install it on my computer.

    Can I do that? I can't find any information about doing just that.

    A LiveCD is good, because it shows people what a properly set-up environment can do, but why not let us set it up, ourselves?

    Licensing issues perhaps? Whatever the reason, a note on the page would be nice.

  • I'll mirror it (Score:5, Informative)

    by ToadMan8 (521480) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:57PM (#11828059)
    If someone can get their hands on it I will mirror it. The University has a 200 megabit pipe to lay to waste, but we're on I2 so edu connections will fly. (I've done this in the past for /.ed things)

  • Apple v. Sun (Score:5, Interesting)

    by revscat (35618) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @04:57PM (#11828066) Homepage Journal
    Does anyone get the impression that there is some subtle but real competition going on between Sun and Apple? Apple seems to be moving in on the server/blade market, and Sun is attempting to do cool GUI tricks. I wouldn't mention this but Sun has made so much of Project Looking Glass that it's kind of hard to not wonder if one of their primary targets here is not Apple and the users who are using it as their preferred UNIX OS.

    • I wouldn't mention this but Sun has made so much of Project Looking Glass that it's kind of hard to not wonder if one of their primary targets here is not Apple and the users who are using it as their preferred UNIX OS.

      Workstations are one of the few pieces of Unix kit that you can be assured will be replaced as quickly as you can get new tech out the door. In typical graphic and video shops they upgrade their kit every year if there is a speed boost. I have a friend that owns a local design firm and if

  • System Shock 3? A True Sequel to Thief?! NO! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Alzheimers (467217) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @05:03PM (#11828139)
    Oooh, shame on you! I had my hopes lifted for a moment, before being ripped to shreds by cruel reality.

    Damn. RIP, Looking Glass Studios.

  • Value not yet realized? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Eric Savage (28245) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @05:09PM (#11828221) Homepage
    I couldn't get the video, but from the screenshots and other stuff I've seen I don't see anyone making a compelling case for this. I admit it has promise, but I don't see any examples of actual utility that cannot also be found in just having two or three monitors. Right now it just seems like eye candy and an interesting concept the developers are waiting for someone else to capitalize on, not a viable alternative to the current 3D (e.g. stacked windows) desktop paradigm.

  • Honest /. recommendation (Score:5, Insightful)

    by miketang16 (585602) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @05:11PM (#11828255) Journal
    After reading about 15 requests for a torrent, I got to thinking about the /. effect and bittorrent.

    Wouldn't it be a decent idea to set up a torrents.slashdot.org and if possible, before releasing a story with a large 'attachment', set up a torrent for it?

    Then again, I don't know how hard this would be logistically, considering that one must obtain a copy of the file ahead of time. However, IMHO I think it's worth a shot.

    • Re:Honest /. recommendation (Score:4, Insightful)

      by miketang16 (585602) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @05:39PM (#11828580) Journal
      As for the faq question about creating a site cache, this would be quite different since it's not taking away from any adspace revenue based on the site because you would only be sharing a file that that site is distributing. People would still visit the site to read the information, but the bandwidth needs for a large file hosted on the site would be distributed.

      An argument might be that if you give readers a direct link to the file, then they won't visit the site. However, /. already posts direct HTTP/FTP links in its stories. Also, people that only want the file are just going to read the replies anyway to look for a direct link or torrent.
    • The first rule of slashdot is: you do not talk about solutions to the slashdot effect.

      Any guesses as to the second rule?

      • Re:Honest /. recommendation (Score:5, Informative)

        by Torg (59213) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @05:54PM (#11828724)
        Actually the amount of traffic a tracker gets is substantial. It is directly related to how many users there are in the cloud. The way the tracker works is to track the meta-data from the clients (what parts they have) so it can broadcast it back out.

        It is not nearly as large as the amount of bandwidth needed to distribute your data but it is still quite significant. Don't take my word for it, set one up and try it yourself.
        • People have proposed having slashdot itself host large files (or torrents) from stories or copies of the articles to stave off slashdotting, but there are always these arguments against it:

          1. Slashdot cannot assume it has the right to distribute potentially copyrighted material

          2. Slashdot must respect the target site's right to control their content - whether that means registering users, displaying ads before or alongside the content, or charging a fee to view content.

          For example, if someone posts a rev

  • Humane Interface (Score:3, Insightful)

    by shrapnull (780217) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @05:15PM (#11828298)
    Probably the strongest point in the development of Project Looking Glass is that it shows GUI developer's that we are far from achieving any sort of happy medium or standard in the graphical experience.

    Coincidentally, with the passing of Jef Raskin recently, there is fear that the concepts of his Humane Interface [slashdot.org] will go largely ignored and unnoticed, despite there being a desperate need to simplify the user experience while being intuitive without being intrusive, and still allocating the option of low-level interaction demanded by hackers.

    While drawing the connection between Raskin and Project Looking Glass may seem distant, it is surely a nice example to see such a major organization funding open revolts against the norm and doing so in a public arena.

  • is counter-productive.

    Managing their rotation axis and depth is more waste of time.

    Windows should either be auto-maximized or auto-tiled by the windowing system, with the user and application cooperating to define which parts in the visible output of the application are important to the user at every given moment so that those are automatically displayed to the user. Simple example: Newly created messages about errors or events should not be placed on top of some text I am reading, but on some of the all-gray or all-white area that the screen almost always contains. For this to happen, it must know that text is more important than "dead" areas that contain nothing.

    This silliness of attributing physical traits to non-physical entities is counter-productive, even if it is very visually appealing.

    Lets let go of the overlapping windows crap and solve the division of screen-space problem in a more intelligent way.

  • Will no one post a torrent? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Trogre (513942) * on Wednesday March 02 2005, @05:41PM (#11828598) Homepage
    This is getting silly.

    Seriously, if anyone here has downloaded the iso, torrent it pronto.

  • Looking Glass is nausea inducing (Score:5, Insightful)

    by NeedleSurfer (768029) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @06:30PM (#11829063)
    this is not a flame but a real comment, all videos I watched of this gave me nausea, the idea that the background move when my mouse does is very disturbing and not a good idea to locate items on the screen since everything moves not just the foreground or background. Each graphical element is way too big and actually nulify the idea, if you wanted more space out of this realize you don't because every object on the screen is now bigger, turning them aside doesn't provide much more space than windowshading does (the ability on the mac to collapse a window into its title bar), actually it provide less space because of the drop shadow and extra thickness, plus, now, you have too read from up to down instead of left to right, basically it is less usefull and more clunky than windowshade, but since it is a feature of a software that runs on Linux people will go nuts over it and call it usefull 3D even if its nothing but glitz and wizzbang...

    Actually, Looking glass is like when you give Windows a resolution the display can't handle, it just shows you part of your desktop and now you have to scroll the desktop to go to each corner, imagine this concept in 3D, you have Looking Glass...

  • Torrent Now up... (Score:4, Informative)

    by BrianHursey (738430) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @11:00PM (#11830976) Homepage Journal
    Some one please mirror this file. Im sure this site will go down fast.

    Here is the site that i found serching through the sun forms..

    Get it while its up. lg3d.iso.torrent [titaniumforums.com]

      • Re:Conflict of interest (Score:5, Insightful)

        by UWC (664779) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @05:06PM (#11828181)
        Sun sells servers. Hosting a torrent would set an example which in the long run could lead to fewer servers sold.

        And having their own servers Slashdotted sets a better example?

    • Re:Finally... the wait is over (Score:5, Interesting)

      by evanfrey (838952) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @05:08PM (#11828211)
      I installed this about a month ago on gentoo. Its little more then a crappy demo. The one I really want to see, is a linux port of sphereXP http://www.hamar.sk/sphere/, OR i would like to see the metisse project http://insitu.lri.fr/~chapuis/metisse/ see the light of day.

      • Re:Finally... the wait is over (Score:5, Insightful)

        by jericho4.0 (565125) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @05:47PM (#11828644)
        Seeing as there is a lot of interest in this thing, and you're the only one who's seen it, can you either post a torrent or expound on what was lacking ?

        • Re:Finally... the wait is over (Score:5, Informative)

          by evanfrey (838952) on Wednesday March 02 2005, @08:07PM (#11829917)
          It was kind of a pain to find all of the packages, ( alot of googling =/ ). The following packages were needed and DONT expect to find all of them on sun. Just google the following: jdk-1_5_0_01-linux-i586.bin jai-1_1_2_01-lib-linux-i586.tar.gz java3d-1_3_2-build4-linux-i586.tar.gz java-config-1.2.11.tar.bz2 lg3d-0.5.tar.gz It took a long time to find the packages, but once I did I just used portages emerge to build it. If you want to find the ebuild (build script) google for: lookingglass-bin-0.5.ebuild hopefully this helps out. If I knew there would be all this interest, I would have documented the procedure.
      • You're talking nonsense. What's stopping the project from seeding a torrent? You think maybe it will not work if only 10 people are downloading it? If a torrent was up, we wouldn't have to wait for somwone to complete a download.

      • Re:Desktop (Score:3, Informative)

        by EddWo (180780)
        If you get the latest public build, WinHec 2004 4071, and enable the DWM (Desktop Window Manager) and then use Atl-Tab, all your windows stack on top of one another and tilt away from you.
        http://www.stardock.com/video/june2004/longhorn/l h 4074_6.jpg [stardock.com]

        Thats about the only 3D effect thats in Longhorn, you must be thinking of the Task Gallery research project or SphereXP.

        Longhorn uses the 3D accelerator to render everything, Avalon the new presentation system is built on Direct3D, but so far theres not much

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