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Texas Attorney General Sues Vonage over 911
Posted by
timothy
on Wed Mar 23, 2005 07:27 AM
from the big-daddy-government dept.
from the big-daddy-government dept.
bigtallmofo writes "Vonage VoIP customers and readers of many media reports should be aware that Vonage's support for 911 service is less than ideal. Now the Attorney General of the State of Texas is suing Vonage for failing to make clear the limitations of their 911 service. The issue was brought to the AG's attention after a 17-year old Houston girl was unable to reach police after dialing 911 when both of her parents were shot by an intruder."
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Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Interesting)
The real number to which your 911 call is forwarded is some sort of state secret. The 911 call centers don't want to be called except for when 911 is dialed to avoid pranks, mistakes, and confusion. If you dial 911 from Vonage they forward your call to the publicly listed police number for your area. If they could figure out what the call center for your area would be, they would foward the call there. But my understanding is the list is not available to them.
The 911 problems with VOIP are that like cell phones, you can take a VOIP phone with you. It is not tied to a location. Unlike cell phones, you can't pinpoint the location as being near a tower. You are just "on the internet" which is not nearly as helpful. VOIP does not have embedded GPS either.
Here is a list of things that I think need to happen. Lets sue until the do (I don't care who):
I'm not sure how well the GPS thing would work indoors. You might have to have the box say "I can't get a GPS signal, I won't work until I have one. Go plug me in near a window until I can see a satelite, then you can put me in the basement."
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Test your 911 now (Score:5, Informative)
Well not now as in today, we don't want to slashdot 911. However if you have VOIP service and 911 should be enabled, call 911, tell the operator it is a test (sometimes they will put you on hold until they are not busy, just wait) then ask the operator to verify that they have your correct address.
It is legal to call 911 for purposes of testing, but you should only do so when you need to test something. A voip phone is good reason to test 911.
It is easy to do. Everyone should do it once in their life just so they have an idea what will happen when 911 answers. Just remember that you are low priority, don't get mad when they leave you suddenly. If there is an emergency you want them to take care of that first.
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Hello, 9-1-1 (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know about you, but I generally don't lose Internet service unless I've also lost my land line (at least not within the past 6 years). In my particular situation (and thousands of other's) my television, internet and telephone are all coming in on one RJ-6 line.
I haven't used Vonage, but if as others are saying in this thread, they give you a setup procedure for what is going to be called if you dial '911' - that certainly seems like due diligence to me.
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Funny)
Died more often?
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:4, Insightful)
however, what's really the point is that vonage let them believe that 911 would work perfectly - which it didn't.
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:4, Informative)
So, really, the suggested solution for VoIP now is to get an inactive cell phone, and keep it around in case you ever need to dial 911.
I don't know if VoIP could ever have this provision... that just the fact that you're able to connect to the public IP network means that you're able to dial 911?
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:4, Insightful)
While Vonage should certainly take steps here, there are no steps at their end that will guarentee good results in an emergency situation.
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Insightful)
911 Dialing Is Not Automatically Set Up for Use. You Must Pre-Activate 911 Dialing. You May Decline 911 Dialing.
Of course this is America and no one reads the documentation and just expects things to work. Did you also know if you dial 911 with your phone police won't know where you are? Some people were on a boat that started to sink and they dialed 911. They didn't know what lake they were on, what city there were in or the friend's address whom they were visiting. They drowned and died and now their families are suing the police because they couldn't help them.
Sure it would be great if we lived in a world where you could just should 911 and the police would come and save you but we don't. I also don't want to live in a world where lawnmowers need to contain warnings that basically say "don't touch the spinning blades, you could loose a hand" or "don't use this to trim your hedges dumbass" or else the manufacturers get sued. I don't want to live in a world where you have to list warnings in advertisements. My other question is would cell phone companies be required to do the same?
I mean come on, does Microsoft warn you that you might get a virus or that someone could hack into your computer? Of course not, why state the obvious. I have vonage and I certainly knew of it's 911 limitations. I also knew of the cell phone 911 limitations. (Of course the cell phone limitations are starting to change and they can usually track you to your nearest cell tower. Except not all police stations have the updated equipment)
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Interesting)
they clearly say that you can ditch your old landline.
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Informative)
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SUE THEM ALL! (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Your message implies "who to sue". How about sue no one?! How about the personal responsibility of knowing 911 works this way when you buy the device... I own Vonage, no secret to me that 911 worked different. Pretty clear when I installed the device. Of course, everyone who visit the house know this? No... but damn, we DID NOT go through this bullshit when Cell Phones were new.
2. Murder is bad, so everyone is going to look to blame all kinds of things. But this is stupid human behavior and what makes much of the USA suck is our lack of accepting personal responsiblity (the person doing the murder). And our TV/Media always plays a role in in, making it seem like our government's main job is to keep John Q Public from killing Jim Q Public.
3. Yha, GPS. Uh huh. Let's use technology to solve problems created by technology... instead of #1 and #2.
I feel sad for the girl... but I also accept that you can't eliminate evil from the world... and every time you try to 'contain it' you just end up push it somewhere else. There are some things worth making a stand over... but come on, just a case of personal responsibility.
It is the government's job to solve all my problems! (911) Blah.
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Re:SUE THEM ALL! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:SUE THEM ALL! (Score:3, Insightful)
What if somebody happens to have an old antique or just elegant phone on display that isn't connected to a line at all? Should that be illegal since you cannot call 911 on it?
What about if I have one those Skype handsets connected to my computer, which looks like a phone but is actually only used for calling in Skype network. Must that provide 911? If it does, what about the
Re:SUE THEM ALL! (Score:4, Insightful)
That's great that it was really clear to you that 911 was going to work differently. Unfortunately for you, the person who finds you incapacitated might not realize that 911 doesn't work the same way on your "phone" as it does on every other phone that they've ever used. And given that people are not always in the clearest state of mind during emergencies, it might take a little longer for them to get emergency personnel to your location. When *you're* the one bleeding out and 5 minutes makes a difference between life and death, are you going to take comfort in the fact that Vonage may deliver your phone call to the non-emergency police numbers?
Did you know that any cell phone that can talk to a tower is *required* to be able to call 911 [fcc.gov], even if the person doesn't actually pay for service? Did you know the same thing is true for a phone that you have plugged into the wall? Why is Vonage any different then any other phone service provider (cell or landline?) The answer is, they're not. Or at least they cannot claim to be. You cannot claim to be a replacement for a phone company if you don't provide all of the critical services that a phone company would provide. It's false advertising. And it's not in the public's best interests.
Personal responsibility is NOT the issue here. Personal responsibility is when YOU take responsibility for your actions (as you did when you put your name on your post). Not when someone else takes responsibility for their actions. How could the girl's actions have been better? Could she have told the intruders to take responsibility for themselves? That's utter stupidity.
Furthermore, it's not even the little girl that is suing Vonage here. It's the state of Texas. And they're suing because of the reasons I just indicated. Offering a replacement for phone service and not giving 911 services is utterly ludicrous.
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:3, Interesting)
1) You have to activate it manually and are never told this is the case (s you find out when you try to dial it.. great)
2) It's in many places only works during office hours(!!)
One problem is that the 911 service and the VOIP people have to work together more. At the moment the problem is Vonage claim they support 911, when it's badly designed and not automatically active. Thats false ad
Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Informative)
Do you have some evidence of Vonage's 911 relay working only during office hours? Since, as far as I know, Vonage's 911 relay is a single 24/7 point for the entire country (in Arizona, I believe) I find that unlikely.
I could buy that some of the emergency services (police/fire/ambulance) are only available during office hours. Not all areas have 24/7 police/fire/ambulance services. That is not a Vonage issue, that is a locality issue. There are still areas not served by 911. In many rural areas, 911 relays to different dispatchers depending on the time of day (State Police vs. Town Police, for example). Vonage likely does not have direct access to 911 at that level.
I agree that 911 and VOIP need to work together much more. 911 is a complicated system. There seems to definitely be some turf issues I recollect from when it was deployed in my home state a few years back.
(For those who do not live in rural areas, please accept that very small towns often don't have the same level of emergency services coverage that cities do. I've been in towns where you have to call the State Police during work hours, because the policeman is volunteer and works during the day. You could call him once he got home from work though. In the town where I grew up you called Florence - she figured out who to call for you because she had a list of where all the volunteers worked.)
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:4, Interesting)
I think it would be useful if there was some number (say 922) that people could call that would let them know that their phone would go to the correct call center in an emergency and that the call center would know their address, the problem is that people are lazy and 8/10 homes will never check, sometimes socialism is needed to stop idiots hurting themselves lol.
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Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:3, Interesting)
Forum message from some people who actually did test 911 over VoIP.
People have been testing 911 long before VoIP became popular. The usual reason was that they programmed one of the buttons on their phone to speed dial 911, and want to make
Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:3, Informative)
Bullshit. Call up the 911 business office ( NOT 911, look it up ), ask for the cell phone emergency number
BAM! You're gold.
Asterisk user here, and what do you know, 911 DOES work for me
Reason number one (Score:5, Insightful)
I will never give up that emergency landline even if it costs me more money in both installation and charges.
(I may be biased, we have needed it on two occasions in my life, both fire though)
Paint it red... (Score:5, Interesting)
Call it the "9-1-1 Emergency Phone" for the kiddies...
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Re:Paint it red... (Score:5, Funny)
"Oh my god, a murderer!..."
*spin* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click*
*spin* *click*
*spin* *click*
"Hello, this is 911... hello?......."
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Bah (Score:5, Informative)
Disclaimers Don't Eliminate Potential Liability (Score:3, Informative)
Clear to me, why not them? (Score:3, Informative)
One of the many reasons to keep a POTS line. (Score:5, Interesting)
cordless and base station power (Score:4, Interesting)
Many people get rid of their normal phone when they buy a multi-handset cordless, even though there's (in the UK at least) a big sticker on the phone that tells you about requiring mains power for the thing to work and the risk.
Huh? (Score:5, Interesting)
So I'm a tad concerned about this.
On the other hand, I did have to dial 911 in the last year (or two?), *before* I had the VoIP service, while I had a traditional land line.
An electrical cable outside my house was about 60 years old and it decided it would short in the middle of the night. (Think this was last April or the year before). This was the main power to the house. I went out to investigate, and it was smoldering. I had no idea if the house was burning on the inside of the walls or not.
I run back inside and dial 911. Guess what? The girl didn't know my address. She fumbled for a few minutes and finally I gave it to her.
So if I know 911 had problems beforehand, why would I worry about my voip service? I've tried to make it completely clear to my family if something goes awry, we would need to use our cell phones...
I agree with Texas AG (Score:4, Interesting)
Also GPS doesnt work as well indoors, so people who said that, thats not really going to work. Right now, cellular companies use tringulation and RF timing to detect where you are, works pretty well. Cingular (Former ATT Wireless) has friend finder, where you can add your friends and family and see where they are. Or leave a phone in the your car, and find out all hours where the car is.
911 isn't free... (Score:5, Interesting)
While Vonage is great and all, they are not taxed by anyone, as of yet. If you look at your baby bell phone bill, you'll see a tax of a few bucks on there each month for Emergency 911 service.
I pay for my 911 service, and so does everyone who uses a landline or a cell phone. Vonage wants access to this system, but they don't want to pay for it.
That is why the baby bell's are refusing access to the PRIVATE 911 network which they have established. We take 911 for granted, but it is a service that is private, and it is a service that we pay for.
But VOIP is location-independent! (Score:3, Informative)
Isn't one of the points of VOIP that you can take your number with you anywhere in cyberspace? Call from your house in the suburbs, your downtown office, or the Marriot three time zones away?
There's no reasonable way to require the service to map 911 services if they don't know where you are.
As for Vonage, there's a link on their home page for 911 Dialing [vonage.com]. If you click on it, you see that it's an extra service and all the limitations are clearly laid out, including the need to update them with your location and the fact that it'll only call the current designated location.
Vonage is NOT Tranditional Land Line Service! (Score:4, Insightful)
That's like living on a big old country road WAY out there... and having trees fall down often.. well when one falls you have to get a tow truck in there or other large vehicle to move it.
Saying VoIP needs landline quality 911 is like saying you need/want a crain on your car so you can move those trees... after all someone's life might depend on you getting through.
Your car is not designed to move trees... likewise VoIP is *not* regular phone service, and as a result will be DIFFERENT.. (You don't see anyone sueing because they get 3 way calling for free.. do you? That's certainly not a standard for a regular phone line.).
If dialing 911 (cutting trees) is that important to you, then keep a regular land line, or cell phone (get a tow truck).... but don't expect one technology to work like another!
You get what you pay for (Score:4, Insightful)
Just listened to the sound clipi of the call (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.oag.state.tx.us/oagNews/release.p
I don't see how this lawsuit will have any feet to stand on... first the message CLEARLY states that 911 service is not available on that line.. and instructs you what to do (have a neighbor call or... HEAVEN FORBID!!! call the police number like you used to have to do 5 years ago)... it's not like Vonage is being negligent about this in any way...
Was the service activated? (Score:4, Interesting)
From vonage's website:
911 Dialing Is Not Automatically Set Up for Use. You Must Pre-Activate 911 Dialing. You May Decline 911 Dialing.
We STRONGLY urge you to activate 911 Dialing. Even if you don't plan to make 911 calls from your Vonage line, there may be others who do. You can't plan in advance for all situations. For example, a residential line could be used by babysitters, young children, in-laws, and others who may need to make 911 calls. If you decline 911 from Vonage, you or others will not be able to call 911 from your Vonage line. Don't play games with your safety. Register today
Of course that really doesn't matter. The fact is it didn't work and that's enough for someone to sue.
It would be interesting to know if they had the service turned on or not. Of course it should be on by default...
I think it's BS (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's face it, cell phones don't always have 911 access either, but NO one complains about that. That's because the status quo phone industry makes a fortune on cell phones.
Once the status quo phone industry kills off the little guys like Vonage and takes over VOIP, we won't be hearing about the so called 911 problem anymore.
Re:I think it's BS (Score:3, Interesting)
But, merely ONE time it happens with Vonage, and the lawsuits begin. You don't find that even a little bit suspicious?!
Vonage *DOES* offer 911 (Score:3, Insightful)
Lets face it, there is *NO* way that 'your VoIP phone service will work anywhere you plug it into a broadband Internet connection (including locations other than your home)' and/or 'you are not restricted to the local monopoly-phone carrier for your phone service, or even required to use their existing wiring plant' can ever be compatible with 'the phone service provider always automatically knows your location'. Anyone desiring services with the former featurs, *should* have the sense (or if they don't, it should be in big bold letters when they sign up) to realize that.
For more info (from Vonage):
http://vonage.com/features.php?feature=911
Much BS about Vonage (Score:3, Informative)
Suppose I'm interested in signing up for Vonage. I go to vonage.com, click on "Basic 500 plan." On the main page, it says, "Does Vonage offer a 911 Dialing emergency type of dialing service? Yes. Click here to learn more. " Clicking on the link takes me to a page where the first sentence reads, "Vonage offers 911 Dialing to all customers. When you dial 911, your call is routed from the Vonage network to the Public Safety Answering Point (PSAP) for your area." Just below it, in bright yellow-orange letters, a message clearly states, "You Must Tell Us the Physical Location of Your Vonage Line for 911 Dialing to Function."
When consumers purchase the plan over the phone, call center salespeople also fail to disclose this important information...
Okay, so 2 weeks later, I sign up for Vonage by phone. My phone rep tells me about 911. Of course, YMMV, but the burden of proof is going to be unfortunately on Vonage via policies to its employees.
Even after signing up, there are limitations to the service that Vonage customers may never know about unless they read the fine print buried on the company's Web site.
After signing up, I log in, and get a dashboard. Granted, nothing about 911 shows on the dashboard. When I click on "Features," however, which is where you go to set up call forwarding, voicemail, network outage fallback number (strangely called Network Availability Number), Right There In A Bold Red Box, It Says "911 Dialing is NOT automatic. You must activate 911 Dialing for each number on your account."
This is hardly "buried in the fine print."
See above.
For example, customers who dial 9-1-1 through Vonage's "911 dialing" service are routed through administrative lines at 9-1-1 call centers, not directly to call-station operators who dispatch emergency vehicles. Calls outside regular business hours may not be answered. If emergency personnel do get the call, they may not be able to identify the caller's phone number and will not have information about the caller's address.
No personal experience on this one, but given the other falsehoods in the article, I find it highly suspicious. Vonage collects your address and binds it to your telephone number. When you call them, they know the registered address of the phone. Vonage claims to use that information to connect to the proper call center. In the age of call forwarding, I would hope this information is auto-routed to the call center... but then again, how many times have I keyed my account number into an automaton only to have the human ask for it all over again.
In summary, Vonage is great, it's 911 is what it is, but they certainly warn you about it, and this lawsuit is baseless.
Well, I'll disagree with the crowd. (Score:4, Interesting)
Supporting 911 also includes having emergency services know your address, know your PHONE NUMBER, and other information. Its not just a macro that connects you to a PRIVATE company that might not even be open. A 5 year old who doesn't know what his address is can call 911 and have help arrive.
But according to some posters here, everyone should have read this fine print, buried in the terms of service:
2.1 Non-Availability of Traditional 911 or E911 Dialing Service
You acknowledge and understand that the Service does NOT support traditional 911 or E911 access to emergency services. Vonage does offer a limited 911-type service available only on Vonage Devices as described herein, but you acknowledge and understand that 911-type dialing is NOT automatic, that you must separately take affirmative steps, as described in this Agreement and on Vonage's website, to activate such 911-type dialing capabilities and that such 911-type dialing is different in a number of important ways (some, but not necessarily all, of which are described in this Agreement) from traditional 911 service. Vonage 911 dialing cannot be used in conjunction with a Vonage Soft Phone application and is only available on Vonage-certified Devices or Equipment. You agree to inform any household residents, guests and other third persons who may be present at the physical location where you utilize the Service of the non-availability of traditional 911 or E911 dialing from your Vonage Service and Device(s). If you activate Vonage 911-type dialing service, you agree to inform any household residents, guests and other third persons who may be present at the physical location where you utilize the Service as to the important differences and limitations of Vonage 911 dialing service as compared with traditional 911 or E911 dialing that are set forth in this Agreement.
2.2 Description of 911-Type Dialing Capabilities - Activation Required
Vonage does offer a 911-type dialing service in the U.S. (but may not offer such service in Canada) that is different in a number of important ways from traditional 911 service. You acknowledge and understand that 911-type dialing is NOT automatic. You must successfully activate the 911 dialing feature by following the instructions from the "Dial 911" link on your dashboard. You acknowledge and understand that you cannot dial 911 from this line unless and until you have received a confirming email. Once you have received a confirming email that 911 dialing has been successfully activated, you may dial 911 as needed. When you dial 911, your call is routed from the Vonage network to the Public Safety Answering Point (PSAP) or local emergency service personnel designated for the address that you listed at the time of activation. You acknowledge and understand that when you dial 911 from your Vonage equipment it is intended that you will be routed to the general telephone number for the PSAP or local emergency service provider (which may not be answered outside business hours), and may not be routed to the 911 dispatcher(s) who are specifically designated to receive incoming 911 calls using traditional 911 dialing. Vonage relies on third parties for the forwarding of information underlying such routing, and accordingly Vonage and its third party provider(s) disclaim any and all liability or responsibility in the event such information or routing is incorrect. As described herein, this 911-type dialing currently is NOT the same as traditional 911 or E911 dialing, and at this time, does not necessarily include all of the capabilities of traditional 911 dialing. Neither Vonage nor its officers or employees may be held liable for any claim, damage, or loss, and you hereby waive any and all such claims or causes of action, arising from or relati
Re:Well, I'll disagree with the crowd. (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:This should be top priority (Score:4, Interesting)
where on earth are you ?
This is the internet, the IP connecting to the VOIP service isn't even necessarily in the same country as the handset.
Enterprising emergency service providers should start a low cost subscription service to hook up a batphone direct to the 911 center for you.
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Re:Here I sit, cheeks a flexin'... (Score:4, Interesting)
Please tell us where you're from.
(I'm certain hilarity will ensue, and I could use a good laugh this morning.)
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Re:911 (Score:3, Insightful)
So how is it vonage's fault that the family never provided their location to activate the 911 dialing fea