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Zen and the Art of Apache Maintenance

Posted by Zonk on Tue Apr 05, 2005 04:13 PM
from the horse-training dept.
Software Editorial Apache Linux
SilentBob4 writes "Apache recently held a week-end "infrathon" to sweep the dust out of the corners, squash a few old bugs, drink a wee bit of ale (maybe a wee bit more than a wee bit) and get their hands dirty with the Zen of maintaining their infrastructure. MadPenguin.org crashed the party in search of the secrets of getting into the "zone" while peeking into the grittiest of the nitty gritty with one of the darling projects of open source, Apache." From the article: "The guys that I interviewed were among some of the brightest minds in open source; Brian Behlendorf; Upayavira; Greg Stein; and Roy Fielding, all of whom are well known and regarded (or deserve to be). These guys have the skills to be Microsoft millionaires, but instead flew thousands of miles to sit slouching on couches and squatting on cushions hacking infrastructure maintenance for free, primarily just to hang out with each other, even though they could have done the same thing on line."
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  • Only the really important stuff, please... (Score:5, Funny)

    by veg_all (22581) on Tuesday April 05 2005, @04:16PM (#12147858)
    ...like Lego toilets.

    Really fascinating stuff, but I couldn't help mysef:
    From the interview with Brian Behlendorf:

    MP: What's the most important thing about this event?

    BB: I'm not sure this is an event worthy of Slashdot [laughing]

    Heh, you must be new here.

  • I had a little deja vu while reading the headline. (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2005, @04:16PM (#12147866)
    I was going to reply but instead but instead I'm sitting in my comfy chair typing this somewhat unfunny comment for free.

  • Thankyou! (Score:4, Funny)

    by pixel.jonah (182967) on Tuesday April 05 2005, @04:16PM (#12147870)
    ...for all your hard "work"

  • Not worthy of /. (Score:5, Funny)

    by scovetta (632629) on Tuesday April 05 2005, @04:20PM (#12147925) Homepage
    BB: I'm not sure this is an event worthy of Slashdot [laughing].

    Don't you worry yourself about what's worthy of /. Your event stands a good chance of being posted two or three times over the next month.
  • "Subversion trees"

    Like a Phone tree, right, only they're subversives!

    (yes, sub-version, I know)

  • Uh (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Elwood P Dowd (16933) <judgmentalist@gmail.com> on Tuesday April 05 2005, @04:23PM (#12147970) Journal
    In public statements and in its 2004/9/1 SEC 10-k mandatory legal filing, Microsoft calls open source projects like Apache the second greatest profitability concern behind a weak global economy. Yet Microsoft doesn't "get" why their profitability is imperiled by a movement that their Chairman called a group of "communists."
    Maybe Chairman Bill doesn't "get" it because he's too busy answering press calls about his generosity in donating his billions to them poor brown people over there.
    Wait, what's your point?

    • Re:Uh (Score:4, Interesting)

      by The Angry Mick (632931) on Tuesday April 05 2005, @04:57PM (#12148339) Homepage

      I don't get it either, dude. Is he complaining about A) Bill being tied up with the press, B) giving away his money, or C) giving to charity, or D) all of the above?

      If it's A, it's probably intended to mean Bill should spend more time with his developers. Possibly a valid point, but presented in a horribly malignant way.

      If it's B or C, he should seek professional counselling. Soon.

      If it's D, there's no hope for him. He'll never be happy and should consider moving to a small shack somewhere in the wilderness - preferably without easy access to the Internet, firearms and/or explosives.

      • ...or E, he's insinuating that there's more to Bill's generosity than mere generosity, and it has something to do with the press.

    • Re:Uh (Score:2, Insightful)

      by mrbooze (49713)
      If you're "poor brown people", scrabbling in the dirt hoping to find a morsel of food for your children, would you rather have a well-designed robust web server, or a sandwhich?

      The world needs both free software *and* generous charitable donations. Don't discount one because you prefer the other.

      And don't play the "Oh, well, it doesn't count because it's not a significant portion of his worth". A hungry person doesn't give a damn how much someone had to sacrifice to give him that bowl of soup.

  • They Care. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by phigga (526030) <phil AT schroeder DOT com> on Tuesday April 05 2005, @04:27PM (#12148017)
    IMHO, this is what sets OSS above/apart from The Microsoft Way. These guys got together over a weekend to do maintenance and fix bugs on a project they truly care about. The guys at MS only started fixing bugs when it became obvious that their ineptitude might cost them some of The Almighty Dollar.

    • Re:They Care. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Luddite (808273) on Tuesday April 05 2005, @04:44PM (#12148205)
      >> this is what sets OSS above/apart from The Microsoft Way

      True, but I don't think it's just a Microsoft thing.

      Any large software company will have red-tape out the wazoo. If you had a bright idea and wrote some spiffy new bug-fix, it would go into a repository, need to get sold in house and then reviewed & tested before going gold in a patch god-knows-how-many months later...

      As much as anything I think the processes are to help management cover their asses - If it goes through a 17 step analysis and is still wrong, they've done due diligence...
      • >> True, but I don't think it's just a Microsoft thing.

        I'll agree with that...unfortunately for Microsoft, they're the largest example ever of a red-tape-laden software giant, and most comments that *should* be generalizations end up becoming anti-Microsoft slams.

        It makes me wonder, though, if large software corps don't have something to learn from this "event" as the article keeps calling it. Would it ultimately be productive/counterproductive to, say, stop work on all new projects (or new fe

      • Because I'd rather do business with a group that's motivated by money because I have something to bargain with.

        You don't have enough money to truly bargain with Microsoft.

        • Personally, I don't. But the company I work for does. We pay big bucks to get premium support from Microsoft. If we have some issue with their software, and I take it to them, they'll give me a fix. It's happened before.

      • Everyones motivated by money, and any org. can potentially fail to support their software. The key difference is, a very small company can afford a fix/mod OSS software, but who can afford to get a multiple-billion turnover company such as Microsoft to even listen, let alone do anything?

        Say you find a showstopper in Apache httpd: You can wait and hope, hire your own coder, or contract someone else's coding shop. Any of those are viable, depending on the nature of the problem.

        Now say you find an identical

        • Guess which works out cheaper?

          Man, you have no idea do you. I would advise you to check out my other responses. Let me ask, have you actually ever worked with Microsoft? Have you ever had to make decisions regarding how much support you purchase for them? Do you have any idea how much their support costs? If not, then perhaps you shouldn't get involved in conversations that you have no knowledge about.

      • Many projects do have people who care about your problems, and more if you pay them.
        If you want something better, RedHat has _lots_ of people working in the specific projects that might need support, and when you pay for support, they fix bugs for you.
        Of course, if RedHat does go out of bussines, there's always Novell/SuSE, or even */Debian.
        You seem to believe that Microsoft will never cease to support you, but that's just a belief, in bussiness, that sort of thing does happen.
        The sensible option in _any_ c

        • You'd better not be alone in what you demand then. You probably don't have enough money to presure microsoft all on your own.

          I'm sorry, this is going to sound very condescending, but when someone says something like this, I really get the idea that they must not deal with this sort of thing in real life, and instead they gain most of their "knowledge" about real world I.T. (especially Microsoft) from Slashdot alone.

          News flash for you: If you pay for support from Microsoft, they not only listen to y

  • RE: I imagine... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by fshalor (133678) <fshalor@com c a s t . n et> on Tuesday April 05 2005, @04:31PM (#12148053) Homepage Journal
    That this meeting format method may even crop up on some HR person's desk as the next idea to try at m$.

    I mean, apache's clearly costing a lot less to make into a good product than IIS. And compare the relative profitability... hehe ...ale and couches at redmond. slashdot article coming next month ...
  • ...the fellows that keep the PostgreSQL server farm up and running. It seems like there's always something coming up - new releases, web page tweaks, PGFoundry activity, and all that. Props to Marc Fournier, Dave Page, Andrew Dunstan, and the other fellows who make things run smoothly!

  • WTF (Score:5, Insightful)

    by slashrogue (775436) on Tuesday April 05 2005, @04:39PM (#12148136)
    Maybe Chairman Bill doesn't "get" it because he's too busy answering press calls about his generosity in donating his billions to them poor brown people over there.
    What is this elitist, racist bullshit? I can't even read the rest of the article now. Yes, let's flame someone for donating to poor people. He should put all of his money in a vault and go swimming Uncle Scrooge style and laugh at "them poor brown people" in his spare time. What. The. Fuck.

      • Re:WTF (Score:4, Insightful)

        by ChatHuant (801522) on Tuesday April 05 2005, @07:25PM (#12149554)
        If you put a quarter in the cup at mcdonalds each time you get a big Mac, chances are you're donating a larger fraction of your income to charity than Bill Gates does. Sure, it's better to donate something than nothing, but as the old saying goes, it's not what you give, it's what you sacrifice. The point of the comment was that Bill Gates can't make up for all the wrong he's done by giving away what is, to him, a pittance.

        Not that I don't like a good rant, but let's run some numbers.
        Assuming you eat 3 times a day at McDonalds, you end up giving 75 c a day, or less than $275 a year. Assuming you reached 49 years (as old as Bill Gates) despite your terrible dietary habits, and you started working at 20, you ended up donating less than $8000. Even if you're at poverty level [census.gov], that is you make $9827/year, your total income over this period would be close to 285000 dollars; so you're giving about 2% of your total income. Bill Gates donated close to $27 billion, and has a net worth of about 47 billion [forbes.com], so that's about 36% of his net worth. Looks like Gates got you beat here too.
      • I despise your viewpoint. Are you attempting to say that although his donations have helped millions of people, it doesn't matter because it didn't hurt him enough. I am not a big fan of Microsoft, but your comment is pathetic.
        • will leave 90% of his money to charity on his death. $2 Billion out of his $30 billion net worth


          If only I had $28 billion left after I give to charity... And if my children had $3 billion after I died...

  • Skills (Score:5, Insightful)

    by wombatmobile (623057) on Tuesday April 05 2005, @04:39PM (#12148143)

    These guys have the skills to be Microsoft millionaires

    Skills isn't the hard part. It's the timing.

    • Re:Skills (Score:4, Funny)

      by rayde (738949) on Tuesday April 05 2005, @07:10PM (#12149447) Homepage
      but you NEED skills! You know, like nunchuck skills, bowhunting skills, computer hacking skills... Microsoft millionares are only people who have great skills.

    • Re:Skills (Score:3, Interesting)

      by serutan (259622)
      I haven't even read the article but I was compelled to come in here and make sure somebody rebutted that statement. I've been a contractor at MS on and off for years, and although there are lots of smart people there, they probably aren't any smarter than you are, and they certainly aren't any less smart than the ones I knew there in 1990 who became millionnaires because of Windows 3.1.

      Those folks didn't get rich because they're brilliant programmers, they got rich because Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer are

  • Doesn't this sound weird? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    From TFA:

    Maybe Chairman Bill doesn't "get" it because he's too busy answering press calls about his generosity in donating his billions to them poor brown people over there.

    Umm... Shouldn't the source be MadRacistPenguin?

  • Just a note (Score:5, Insightful)

    by stratjakt (596332) on Tuesday April 05 2005, @04:42PM (#12148184) Journal
    Real journalism doesn't contain stupid shit like this: "Maybe Chairman Bill doesn't "get" it because he's too busy answering press calls about his generosity in donating his billions to them poor brown people over there."

    There you go, simultaneously racist, stupid, and ignorant.

    I think Bill's promise to give away 90+% of his net worth is more noble than anything any slashdotter will ever accomplish.

    The OSS "community" has a bad reputation precisely because of ignorant stupid bullshit statements like that one.
    • The one that the community gained through providing the fruits of their labors to the world gratis?

      The one that they gained through fewer defects/line of code?

      The one they gained for advancing the cause of human freedom? (Encryption, keeping the web out of monopoly hands) 1984 is no nightmare for the proprietary software outfits - BB is a nice cohesive market. Contrast with Carly's ambition: building DRM into every product HP makes...

      The OSS community has a great rep for anybody that has heard of it.
        • So was anything inaccurate or misleading in my post? And why the reflexive dumbass conservative usage of "elitism" ? If elitist means not the dumbest motherfucker in the room, I'm usually guilty.

          pgp is a bfd.
          an open web is a bfd.
          users controlling the hardware they own is a bfd.

          You do appear too ignorant/stupid to recognize what they've done for you. They ARE better than you. Sorry.
    • Your failure to spot satire writ large is unfortunate, but nothing compared to the claims you make about the OSS community's "bad reputation"... I don't even know what that reputation is. This whole article is about their *good* reputation - their ability to get things done without meaningless corporate nonsense getting in the way.

      What are *you* contributing that's so useful, besides your knee-jerk reactions and inability to read not-so-subtle sarcastic statements?

      • Ok, even after you suggested that it was satire, I still don't get it. Satire how? Sarcastic how?
        • I think the alarm bells would start ringing as soon as you see the word "brown"... I think that was last used as any form of racial description in the 1920s (despite it being technically more accurate than "black"). It makes me think of the character from The Murder on the Orient Express who looked after "ze little brown babies". People don't speak like that. It would only ever be used to make it *very* obvious the writer was attempting to distance himself from the opinion... something a lot of people faile
    • I think Bill's promise to give away 90+% of his net worth is more noble than anything any slashdotter will ever accomplish.

      I would have to look into it more, but generally this is just to keep the government from getting it. Good Old Uncle Sam would take a HUGE chunk of his estate if he doesn't leave it to charity. I'm sure his wife and children already have money/stock in their own names and won't be hurting for cash. What else is he going to do with it, may as well give it away. Doesn't really make
      • Sure it does. He could decide to spend it all on a private shape ship, or use it to build nuclear weapons and give them to terrorists.

        He has lots of options. Giving a ton of cash to AIDS research and education is great of him.
        • Sure it does. He could decide to spend it all on a private shape ship, or use it to build nuclear weapons and give them to terrorists.

          Ummm... hard to build space ships after you are dead, and again, not giving nukes to terrorists is hardly benevolant. All that proves is he isn't a total monster, or at least doesn't want his children blown up.
    • "I think Bill's promise to give away 90+% of his net worth is more noble than anything any slashdotter will ever accomplish"

      Except that money doesn't magically appear. His money came from somewhere and all those somewheres would have spent their money elsewhere making people less poor if it hadn't gone to Microsoft.

      Thing is, as we've seen over the last 50 years, when you have trade barriers and subsidies in place all the aid in the world doesn't do shit.

    • I think Bill's promise to give away 90+% of his net worth is more noble than anything any slashdotter will ever accomplish.

      Give any slashdotter that kind of cash and find out. I, for one, would be very happy with even $1 million. But I guess nobility is more expensive these days, with inflation and all.

      I don't disagree that Bill Gates is noble or a good person or whatever, when compared with MOST capitalists. But Microsoft got its money by rather less than noble means. So, for example, if a drug deal
      • So, for example, if a drug dealer gives away 90+% of their profits does that make them noble?

        Wouldn't that entirely depend on what kind of a drug dealer they were? Not all drug dealers are bad, believe it or not! Don't know if pimp would have been a more appropriate analogy, but then again maybe there are good pimps out there too?!?

        Hmmm... terrorist anthrax manufacturing puppy killer giving away 90% of their profits? ;)
    • I think Bill's promise to give away 90+% of his net worth is more noble than anything any slashdotter will ever accomplish.

      Presuming it's not just a promise and he actually does it (I'm not familiar with this, I don't study Gates that closely), it still leaves him with hundreds of millions (or billions? - not sure of his current net worth, but it's enough to know it's way up there) of dollars, and still head of the worlds largest and most (financially and number-of-units sold) successful software company.

  • Can I just say (Score:5, Informative)

    by Moderation abuser (184013) on Tuesday April 05 2005, @05:32PM (#12148676)
    Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance really has nothing to do with motorcycle maintenance. It's about Quality with a capital Q.

    So can we please have fewer of these "Zen and the art of blahblahblah" books?

    • Re:Can I just say (Score:5, Funny)

      by G-funk (22712) <josh@gfunk007.com> on Tuesday April 05 2005, @07:41PM (#12149650) Homepage Journal
      Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance really seems to be about right flaming gibberish. WTF is it with the last 10% of that book? I just can't make it through. I feel like I'm sitting in church with the simpsons hearing a lecture about who begat whom for weeks on end.

      That book needs to come with a health warning: "If you haven't studied ancient greek philosophy for 15 years, stop reading at page 192. Book may become airborne, or sit next to toilet gathering dust for decades. Aim away from face."
      • I studied Greek Philosophy for eight years before reading the book (I read it for "fun" in Grad school). I also minored in Religious Studies with a focus in Eastern thought (I read a lot of Zen and Taoist works). I can guarantee you that I hated that steaming heap of ignorant dreck a lot more than you. When I see it on a bookshelf I still get worked up and want to launch into diatribes about his ignorant ham-fisted abuse of Plato, Aristotle, and Greek thought in general, and what an utterly vapid pile of
  • We have a small website [gottrivia.org] that we run for an irc channel.Just a couple of us maintain it and even then it sometimes becomes a pain in the ass to make small decisions and put something new up and things like that. I cant imagine how a website/project like apache is handled smoothly with soooo many people, all volunteers who have day jobs.Its really tough to even remove 2 hours a day from your schedule to dedicate to a project.Amazing. :)
    • Well spotted - during the colo move the webserver was failed-over to Ajax; a machine donated by HP and sitting in Colo at Surfnet, near Amsterdam.

      This machine is indeed a heavy duty HP/red-hat linux server used for ensuring good support on that platform.

      Dw.

    • > uname -a
      FreeBSD minotaur.apache.org 4.11-STABLE FreeBSD 4.11-STABLE #8: Mon Mar 21 14:40:31 PST 2005 root@minotaur.apache.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/turb o i386
      >

      Its interesting how many tier-1 web sites are FreeBSD based. I thought imdb.com was freebsd, but netcraft says Linux again...

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