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IBM Promoting POWER Systems

Posted by Hemos on Fri Jun 17, 2005 06:49 AM
from the looking-under-the-hood dept.
IBM Technology
A reader writes:"IBM has launched a Open Power Project to increase awareness around its Open Power product line for Linux.. The site includes technical information, forums and provides the ability to tinker w/ Open Power platforms at the University of Augsburg and Peking University. Both Universities are hosting POWER5-based servers and are providing free SSH account access to the Open Source development community. There are rumors of additional Universities to come. They are also hosting special showings of the War of the Worlds in San Francisco and NYC. Looks like there are a couple of hundred pairs of free tickets to each showing on a first come first served basis to those that register."
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  • REALLY?!? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Gherald (682277) on Friday June 17 2005, @06:53AM (#12840192) Journal
    Other suggested article titles:

    "Intel promoting Pentium Systems"
    "AMD Promoting Athlon Systems"
    "Microsoft promoting Windows"

    Now,

    "IBM Promoting POWER Systems" ... film at 11 !!

    • Re:REALLY?!? (Score:4, Informative)

      by henrywood (879946) on Friday June 17 2005, @07:38AM (#12840439)
      Not quite that obvious. OpenPower refers to a line of servers specifically designed to run Linux (hence the "Open") part. This is a small, very small, part of the IBM lineup (which includes some serious heavy metal).

      A more accurate comparison would be:

      "AMD promoting Athlon64 Systems"

      Even that is not much of a comparison as the Athlon64 range is a much greater percentage of AMD's product than OpenPower servers are of IBM's.

      • Re:REALLY?!? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by njcoder (657816) on Friday June 17 2005, @02:53PM (#12845641)
        "Not quite that obvious. OpenPower refers to a line of servers specifically designed to run Linux (hence the "Open") part. This is a small, very small, part of the IBM lineup (which includes some serious heavy metal)."

        Hate the name. Running linux doesn't make the architecture "Open". For an affordable power based workstation look here [pegasosppc.com]. It runs a few different distros of linux and other os's and more are in the works.

        I don't really agree with all the hype around IBM's open source moves. Seems like a lot of what they are doing is using open source as a way to get salespeople in the door to sell proprietary IBM solutions. That's not necessarily a bad thing depending on how it's done. Look at some of the Apache projects, things like Jetty where IBM was a big supporter until they decided it was good enough to fork it internally for WebSphere Portal. That's not so bad, the license allows it but it's still a bit messed up in my opinion.

        But other things like Derby and Geronimo are different all together. Take a look at the IBM Cloudscape pages. Cloudscape is not open source. It's "open source-based". They released the code as the Apache Derby project, but Cloudscape is not an open source project. The download link says "trials and betas". It may be free now but it has the potential of not being free when IBM senses it can charge for more than just support. Why would IBM release this? It's not because there weren't other open source java based RDBMS's out there. Hypersonic and Mckoi were already quite popular in that space and there are more. The difference is, Cloudscape has been designed to be a stepping stone to DB2. The java rdbms's have a niche market. One segment of which is users that want an easy portable system to develop on with little administrative requirements. These types generally outgrow the capabilities of such database systems and the user needs to migrate. If you're already using Cloudscape, the logical migration path is DB2. Which definately isn't free.

        Also look at their recent acquisition of Gluecode. This gives them the developers of the Geronimo project. It's going to turn into Websphere-Lite. Same type of deal with Cloudscape. Both of these will be at the expense of open source software that is trying to be real open source, not just a carrot on a stick. Hopefully people see this and projects like Jonas and JBoss continue to grow.

        I feel IBM is abusing the phrase "Open Source" in it's marketting where it's not appropriate. Like a couple of days ago when they announced they were moving to a more open source type of development for all their projects. They didn't say they were open sourcing all their projects, just that they will be using open source methodologies within IBM. I guess you could call it the Bazaar in the Cathedral. Yet so many mistakenly took the news to mean that ibm was doing more with open source and releasing more products via open source.

        To me it looks like IBM is turning Open Source into shareware. They have their free versions to tinker around with but when you're ready for the real thing, a non crippled version, you have to pay for it. From Jonathan Schwartz's Weblog [sun.com] we have this quote:

        "Jonas (Red Hat's app server) is just a toy, it's just for the low end" said IBM's exec at the Smith Barney Tech Conference I just attended in NYC.

        A similar message is presented (though a little less harshly) when IBM compares AIX to Linix [ibm.com]

        Also look at Eclipse. It's used as an IDE but in many respects it is crippled in that regard, it's real purpose is as a tools platform. To get real productivity out of it you need to purchase plug-ins or upgrade to professional tools based on Eclipse like WebSphere Studio. The Eclipse Foundation is working on a number of open sourc

  • How slow will this be? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Jason1729 (561790) on Friday June 17 2005, @06:55AM (#12840196)
    Both Universities are hosting POWER5-based servers and are providing free SSH account access to the Open Source development community.

    The servers at my school ran painfully slow with a few dozen people connected through SSH and compiling assignments.

    Imagine the whole Open Source community logged in compiling code.

    • Re:How slow will this be? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Chanc_Gorkon (94133) <gorkon&gmail,com> on Friday June 17 2005, @07:15AM (#12840298)
      Yes but were they Power 5's? I doubt it. The Power5 is VERY fast. We have 3 LPAR's on our system and many processors....one LPAR has 6 dedicated processors and one has 10 processors. Total ram for the system is 106 GB and we split that up between the LPARS.

    • Interesting, because the AIX-based RS/6000s my school used for remote access (they're still running, though less used than when I was there) were multi-processor 112MHz PowerPC machines (7013-J30, and 7013-J40).

      These handled the load VERY well, and even could handle MULTIPLE remote-X sessions of Pro/Engineer (serious CAD software) across the campus network to the dorms. Maybe hardware or maybe just AIX, but they could certanly handle a beating and keep on ticking responsively.
        • Of course there are also two parts to "speed" for an interactive multi-user machine. There's response-time, where AIX really shined on those machines, and actual processing power. Even if it runs an intensive task slowly, the simple fact that it has snappy response to an interactive user's input (i.e. UI speed, even if command-line) tasks makes the machine feel a lot faster.

          I also do agree that Solaris is the friendliest, or at least the "cleanest feeling" commercial UNIX. Never messed much with HP-UX b
    • Was your school using 486 Minix servers or something?

      My school is running a fairly old quad-CPU Sun Sparc server with 4 GB of RAM. I don't know the exact clock frequency of it (how do you check that in Solaris?), but it is less than 1 GHz. Most of the time, more than 100 people are logged into it, and there are no speed problems whatsoever.

      I happen to have an account at the University of Augsburg as mentioned in this article, and that thing has 8 1.65 GHz POWER5 CPUs and 8 GBs of RAM. When I compile st

  • Are IBM withdrawing the OpenPower Line?
  • It's too bad they aren't promoting PowerPC.

      • Re:PowerPC (Score:2, Informative)

        by Trigun (685027)
        If you've ever worked on an IBM server, then you know why they are popular. The things are built rock solid, redundant everything, monitoring out the whazoo. In short, if it wasn't for the ever increasing processor speeds, then it would be a server that you plan to use for ten years.

        We have an IBM netfinity server, dual p3, and all we've ever had to do to it was replace one drive in our 1/2 TB array. It's an absolute beauty to use, and worth every penny we paid for it.

  • promotion (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Exter-C (310390) on Friday June 17 2005, @06:58AM (#12840211) Homepage
    Realistically I feel that if IBM really want to premote the Power line or processors they will have to have a Apple style lower end system that can be purchased at a reasonable price. That will get people to buy.. Especially if for a time you could run MacOSX Linux, AIX , xBSD and whatever other Operating systems run on the PPC reliably.

    • Realistically I feel that if IBM really want to premote the Power line or processors they will have to have a Apple style lower end system that can be purchased at a reasonable price.
      So what do you think they should do in order to promote it, then?
    • "Realistically I feel that if IBM really want to premote the Power line or processors they will have to have a Apple style lower end system that can be purchased at a reasonable price."

      You mean like a Playstation 3?

  • Tinkering (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Donny Smith (567043) on Friday June 17 2005, @07:03AM (#12840231)
    >provides the ability to tinker w/ Open Power platforms at the University of Augsburg and Peking University.

    I prefer to tinker with my x86 box at home.

  • "Open" Power? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by chathamhouse (302679) on Friday June 17 2005, @07:08AM (#12840252) Homepage
    You can buy power from... IBM. And it's not cheap. And it doesn't run AIX, only Linux. Sort of. Many applications require some porting love, as per the bounties on http://www.linuxonpower.com/ [linuxonpower.com]

    I generally like what IBM does, and use their x86 servers, storage, and software.

    But "Open" is pushing it here.

    I'd never be able to justify a recommendation to buy Open Power, that is, unless the sales guy left a flashy car in my parking spot...

    Jonathan Schwartz (Sun CTO) had it right when he noted that that was as silly as them shipping Open Sparc boxes. Mind you, there are Fujitsu SPARC64 chips, and OEM sparc-based system builders.

    Of course, IBM is just loving Solaris, particularly Solaris 10. Some assistance in your Solaris to Linux on Power migration? http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/librar y/l-pow-portsolaris/ [ibm.com]
    (Though it is a well written piece - good quick guide to Linux and Solaris system calls, signals.)
    • We have 4 of these boxes (2 running single RedHat images, and 2 running LPARS with SuSE, and quite frankly, they rock. So, if your software is supported why not put it on the platform that performs best? And by the way, the cost might seem high if you do the pricing on their website; but nobody buys direct from IBM at retail unless they're a fool. Get with a business partner who will use the discount list to get you a deal.

      You're right that it doesn't run AIX; but that's the whole point of the OpenPower
    • You can buy power from... IBM. And it's not cheap.


      Yeha it's not cheap in the same way that Adolph Hitler was not a nice guy. (Yeah I watched The Daily Show last night and I'm *still* going making a Hitler comparison).

      Their low end machine is on sale for a mere $8,881.55
  • Maybe they should give away a few hundred or so low-end servers. I wouldn't mind getting one. I'll even pay for the shipping.
    • Maybe they should give away a few hundred or so low-end servers. I wouldn't mind getting one. I'll even pay for the shipping.

      That sounds like an excellent way to sell POWER systems. So you would give them a credit card to put a hold on while you're evaluating the system and if you like it you keep it and they charge you... if not you send it back with a modest 10% restocking fee. I like it.

        • "I think that IBM should try its damnedest to put out a dual processor Power5 system for $1000, you supply the disks. Saturate the market, and offer two-tier service, ie. No service or IBM service."

          What if they did? What if you could get a dual G5 PPC machine with say... 512M RAM and a decent disk (I have no idea whats "decent" these days... 160G?), for $1,500 ballpark? Would you buy one? Would your friends?

          I know my wife would kill me if I brought another machine home, but a Dual G5 could replace

  • i dunno (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ed__ (23481) on Friday June 17 2005, @07:19AM (#12840318) Journal
    I have doubts about any effort like this working if people can't get their hands on systems of their own. A login with strings attached just isn't all that compelling. With Apple switching to Intel, the prospect of the continued availibility of only-a-little-overpriced, mass-market PPC (ie POWER-ish) systems is fading. Mac systems will be available for some time now, but Apple's Switch casts a pall over the whole affair.

    If IBM wants to push their system they may do well to subsidize cheap PPC systems to this particular niche to gain mindshare, familiarity, and visibility with people who may be in a position to drive iseries server purchases later on.

    I know they have eval systems, does anyone know what the costs are?

    Or maybe it wouldn't help; it'd still be nice.
      • actually iSeries is the box formerly known as AS/400 and it is Power. pSeries was RS6000 and I think is now pretty much identical to the microcode level to the iseries hardware but runs AIX. If you want an intel box you need an xSeries, these were netfinity. If you want a laptop then you will be getting a thinkpad from Lenovo. Funnily enough you can get a Thinkpad iseries or xseries but that has nothing to do with AS/400 or Netfinity, just a left hand vs right hand cockup. Someone said recently on the subje

      • iseries are the intel based boxes


        No, iSeries is the former AS/400 [ibm.com].

      • yay, i turned out to be right this time (see other replies). that said, you are correct in believing i have no idea what i'm talking about.

      • However, all you PPC fans should look to Amiga in the long run. Yes, they're back with a line of G3 and G4 based systems.

        No, they aren't.

        The dysfunctional hardware that's been sporadically hawked for several years now to a closed off "Amiga market" as so called "AmigaOnes" for $800-900 a piece are relabelled $500 Teron series motherboards from Mai Logic. Only some 700 suckers bit the bait. Also, they are only sold in G3 configs, not G4. It is unclear if Mai Logic are still alive, but what is clear is tha
  • Historically, putting "Open" in a product name or service has been a useful warning sign, similar to "Honest" on a used card dealer's lot.

    For example, "OpenVMS", "MVS Open Edition", "Open Desktop" or "Open Server", ...

    Unfortunately this is no longer a reliable guide, as some open systems and open source organizations have muddied the waters by using it in the previous (and, for a time, obsolete) sense.
  • But an attempt to get some applications ported to Linux for the power series.

    I've been evaluating Linux at my present employment, and what was lacking most in the IBM solution was available software for the POWER series Linux OS.

    At the moment, many large enterprise, infrastructer applications have been ported to linux for Intel (most even come with RedHat and SuSE packages), but of the 5 applications we require, only TSM backup was offered for Linux on power arch. This list includes BMC, EMC, and Bin

  • too little too late? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by CowbertPrime (206514) <sirmoo@cowbert. 2 y .net> on Friday June 17 2005, @07:38AM (#12840438) Homepage
    Clock for clock, for pure computational demands, very little beats 64bit POWER architecture with real vector instructions. I'd definitely like to see IBM sell something like an apple xserve for us relatively poor scientists who want POWER for doing lots of raw number crunching: fft and molecular dynamics in particular.
    • An OpenPower 710 will cost you about $3500 (you might even be able to find it cheaper) as opposed to $3000 for a comparable X Server. It's not that big a difference! I'd pay an extra $500 for the openness and reliability of IBM kit. (No - I don't work for IBM! I'm just a satisfied customer.)
      • The power 5 kit is so much better then an xserve. The chips are faster, it supports more memory, the OS is fully 64 bit, etc...

        I'm not an IBM employee, I just use kick ass power 5 based systems at work.

  • PowerPC to the people (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rbanffy (584143) on Friday June 17 2005, @07:57AM (#12840555) Homepage
    Without entry-level, inexpensive and interesting (i.e. "Xenon-based" or dual-core FreeScale G4s), PPC Linux will starve to death.

    Nobody will pay more than what a entry-level x86 costs for an entry-level PPC system.

    IBM and FreeScale (the current most affected by Apple's switch) should think about getting simple Linux based PPC desktops at rock-bottom prices in the hands of developers, even if it means selling them at a loss.

    When developers lose interest in a platform, it is doomed.

  • I've got one here (Score:5, Interesting)

    by IGnatius T Foobar (4328) on Friday June 17 2005, @08:53AM (#12840954) Homepage Journal
    We've got an OpenPOWER 720 in our data center as part of IBM's push to get everyone to try it out, and let me tell you, this architecture is fast. Blazingly fast. From the zippy CPU's to the efficient bus design, it just crunches through the most demanding data tasks effortlessly.

    There are some caveats, though. One is that it does run hot. I wouldn't recommend keeping this type of machine running anywhere other than an air conditioned data center. You can feel the hot air blasting out the front of the chassis. The other thing is that because it's designed for virtualization, getting it booted up can be somewhat cumbersome. It actually requires a separate computer (an ordinary PC, as shipped) to run the software that configures partitions and manages the boot process.

    Other than that, though, this is a great way to get a smaller version of what "big iron" can deliver, at a decent price.
  • If IBM was really serious about this, they'd make a system that you could buy for a couple hundred bucks.

    I'd buy a PowerPC motherboard that had standard ATX power connections, IDE/SATA, maybe some PCI slots, maybe SMP. But I'm not going to spend >$3k thank you very much. I, and I'm sure others, would love to tinker with PowerPC chips if it wasn't cheaper to buy a Mac instead.
    • I, and I'm sure others, would love to tinker with PowerPC chips if it wasn't cheaper to buy a Mac instead.

      Ah, but IBM has solved that problem, by forcing Apple to eliminate those pesky low-priced PowerPC systems...

  • Am I glad that all the subsidies I pay to support IBM in America are funding the tech advantages they're offering students in China. How about IBM sends free POWER devkits to every flagship state college in America?

    • You should be glad. This is a trojan horse. Open POWER is dead, it's all a clever trick to get the Chinese to waste time on an amazing yet dead-in-the-water technology.

      Chalk one up for India.

      Oh, I'm sorry, did you want something good to happen to the US?

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