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Mazda Switches To USB Keys

Posted by CmdrTaco on Thu Sep 01, 2005 02:45 PM
from the now-thats-just-wierd dept.
Technology
kv9 writes "The new Mazda Sassou while being 'cool and promoting a positive state of mind' has a most important feature, that every geek will love. Instead of the classic key it uses a usb flash drive for starting up. The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions or music to the car's hard drive."
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  • great, another point of failure (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hqm (49964) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:47PM (#13457395)
    Now you don't have to lose your keys, just have to get them in salty water, or rub your feet on the carpet and touch them, or ....

    • Re:great, another point of failure (Score:5, Informative)

      by lukewarmfusion (726141) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:54PM (#13457503) Homepage Journal
      I have a PNY Attache.

      I've gone swimming in the lake with it in my bathing suit pocket, worn fuzzy sweaters on thick carpet, and accidentally slammed it against some concrete (swinging it on a cord when the cord broke).

      The thing is really durable, and I'm certainly not gentle with it.

      Still works beautifully. YMMV.

      • Re:great, another point of failure (Score:4, Interesting)

        by ari_j (90255) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:58PM (#13457540)
        How about running over it with a grain truck when the ambient temperature is -40 (celsius or fahrenheit, your pick)? I can do that with my keys right now and they still work.

        • Re:great, another point of failure (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Custard (587661) on Thursday September 01 2005, @03:05PM (#13457634) Homepage Journal
          How about running over it with a grain truck when the ambient temperature is -40 (celsius or fahrenheit, your pick)? I can do that with my keys right now and they still work.

          At -40 I'd be more worried about that little car even working than about crushing your keys.

        • Re:great, another point of failure (Score:5, Funny)

          by Evil Adrian (253301) on Thursday September 01 2005, @03:10PM (#13457690) Homepage
          Why are you running over your keys? Are you stupid? Or are you just making a stupid argument for argument's sake?

          Who has ever run over their keys, incidentally? Seems like the keys need to be IN THE CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE for the thing to even be running to run something over.

          Your post angered me. Almost irrationally so. But I think I'm right.

          • Re:great, another point of failure (Score:5, Funny)

            by ari_j (90255) on Thursday September 01 2005, @03:19PM (#13457788)
            You may find this shocking, but this is a problem that occurs due to the existence and proximity of other vehicles. As to the likelihood of this happening, I can't say that it's high. Or even measurable. However, it does exist. Say that you drive up to your house and walk across your cement driveway to the front door, shivering and hurried due to the extreme cold. There is probably also some wind. Yes, wind. Lots of wind. So you're fighting the wind, the cold, and hypothermia by this point, and you are carrying in groceries, a briefcase, and your gym bag. Your keys fall onto the driveway. You live in a secluded spot (secluded mostly due to the climate, if you can imagine that) so your front door is never locked, and you don't need the keys to get inside. You don't even know you're missing them until after you put the groceries away, and by then someone else has pulled up onto the driveway in a truck, running over your keys in the process.

            You're right that this is an excessively rare occurrence, but you are not right for the right reasons. You assume that either there is only one vehicle in all the world or that it requires stupidity to run over a car key. Neither assumption is valid, but your anger is. :)

          • Re:great, another point of failure (Score:5, Funny)

            by jellomizer (103300) * on Thursday September 01 2005, @03:22PM (#13457822)
            Who has ever run over their keys, incidentally? Seems like the keys need to be IN THE CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE for the thing to even be running to run something over.

            You work in a place with construction. You have your keys in your pocket but your hands a numb because of the cold. You try to put your car keys in your pocket but miss. They fall in the snow which muffles the sound. You get into the construction vehicle put it in reverse and you drive over your keys, after you have feeling in your hands maybe after 5 minutes you realize that you don't have your car keys so you start looking for them. You will walk in the tracks of the truck because it is easier walking and you happen to find the glint of your keys for your car you pick it up. And at the end of the day you put it in your car and it works.

            I am sorry but your post angered me. Almost irrationally so. But I think I made a good counter argument.

    • Re:great, another point of failure (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Saven Marek (739395) on Thursday September 01 2005, @03:04PM (#13457618)
      ...or take them to work. many many it workplaces ban the bringing of usb keys into the premises just as they do cell phones and ipods because of being a security risk.

      so you can't drive this car to work people

      • Re:great, another point of failure (Score:4, Insightful)

        by over_exposed (623791) on Thursday September 01 2005, @03:14PM (#13457735) Homepage
        If I had mod points, they'd be yours. I know a lot of places who disallow things like that. If the key can hold music, it can hold "company secrets" and all sorts of nasty things you want to sneak past a company firewall.

      • Re:great, another point of failure (Score:4, Insightful)

        by ivan256 (17499) * on Thursday September 01 2005, @03:33PM (#13457939)
        Such workplaces will have to come to grips with the fact that they'll need to trust their employees instead of enforceing draconian policies. After all, they need to trust their employees anyway, since policies like that are impossible to enforce, and any determined employee will find a simple way around the policy anyway.

        • security is about planning for the worst (Score:5, Informative)

          by DarthAngst (912003) on Thursday September 01 2005, @08:33PM (#13460312)
          If you work in a facility that requires you to not bring media into work so that you can't remove secret information, you deserve to be fired for bringing in a flash drive. Trusted insiders are the greatest threat, hence the need for policies. Such policies are very enforceable, and hold up under the law for the dismissal of employees who violate them. A good policy sets up not only what's forbidden, but also what to do if a security breach happens. Check http://www.sans.org/ [sans.org]. If an employee is determined enough, he or she might just find a less restrictive job.

      • Re:Key? What key? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by phoenix321 (734987) on Thursday September 01 2005, @04:40PM (#13458705)
        It's not about mechanical or other devices, it's about WEAR and TEAR after heavy use. The Prius keyfob almost never leaves your pocket, the car unlocks if you're near and locks if you walk away, fine.

        The Mazda on the other NEEDS that USB stick plugged in to run. And then you have all sorts of people in the world who simply need to unlock/start/stop/lock their car a dozen times per day. Which means after a typical working year around 2500 plug-ins and pull-outs. If those USB devices, plug and socket, aren't built a hundred times stronger than your garden variety USB port and stick, the car key will never survive more than 2 years. No matter how clumsy you are (and most people are clumsy at least one or two days per year), the socket will wear out, the connection leads will lose contact or static electricity kills something inside. Remember the little shocks you sometimes get when touching a car? Static electricity. Some cars deliver more static electricity than others I suppose, but mine zaps me all the time. Not to mention isolating shoe soles on synthetic carpeting. Zapp. You watched Office Space? Good.

        Morale of the story: things that are sensitive to static electricity and not hard wearing shouldn't be used as everyday access tokens for important things like cars and house doors. Make all the electronics inside a wireless keyfob and everything's fine. No wear on the connectors, no point of contact for static electricity. Everything else is bust and is in danger outside the dry home or office environment.

  • "Mazda Sassou" Gesundheit! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:47PM (#13457396)
    Sounds like a Japanese sneeze.

  • Start the clock (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Limburgher (523006) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:47PM (#13457399) Homepage Journal
    How long before someone hacks it to:

    A: Start multiple cars that they own

    B: Start other people's cars

      • Re:We don't need software to start cars (Score:4, Informative)

        by Bagheera (71311) on Thursday September 01 2005, @04:52PM (#13458824) Homepage Journal
        Not that long. By having USB devices to start cars, soon hackers will be doing more than writing viruses and "testing" websites. They will be stealing your car.

        Assuming, of course, they can get past the physical layer to actually access the ignition system. This is a USB to start the car, not to open it. Since the other site was alread /.ed, I don't know what they're actually planning.

        Fact is, they need physical access to steal your car, and it's not difficult to implement the system so making a "copy" of the key would be very difficult.


        But this is a larger problem than meets the eye. If software is used to start a car, how long until government gets creative? What kinds of algorthims can be put in the car computer?

                * If there is a gas outage, the new flash only allows the car to be driven 100 miles per week, then you can't start it until next week?


        And they'll upload this into your physical device how, exactly?



                * Since there is an algorithm that makes each car unique, how long until the car broadcasts its VIN number to anyone who wants to listen? Will cops knock on your door because you parked in a mall, next to a store that had shoplifters?


        That's seperate from a USB car key, now isn't it. Putting a transponder on a car is ALREADY being done. That's essentially what a FastPass is now. Ping it, and it gives you a serial number.


                * How long until my car decides I am driving to fast, and calls the police to mail me a ticket. Before you write this off as never_gonna_happen, consider that many highways now have radar guns attached to cameras, and they mail out tickets in the mail.


        You mean like an automated radar system that takes pictures and sends you a ticket? Old news. Plus (as others have noted) some rental car companies already do that with GPS now.



          * And how long until a bank robber and hacker changes your flash to mask the car that robbed the bank. Imagine the extra people the police will need to hire to straighten out the messes. And imagine how many more tickets they will need to write to pay for those new employees.



        How, exactly, do they change MY flash to mimic their car? How is it going to take "extra people to sort out the mess" when this magic transponder is tracking two cars at the same time, one of which is obviously mine because it's the one parked at my house, while the other one obviously ISN'T mine because it was busy robbing a bank at the time.


        The only good thing for software like this is we can keep track of kids. We can program cars that are started with certian USB keys, that the car will stop if it drives to a certain area. For example, we can have zones the car is not allowed to enter. We can also have software on the computer, to know what family member has the car, and where they are. Maybe we can even set up cars, so if the 16 year old daughter is going out with her friends, that the radio really listens to what is going on in the car to make sure she is not picking up a 18 year old drop out weed head. And if we hear something we don't like, we can drive to where the car is with out shotgun and have an old fashioned lynching.

        Ok, repeat after me. "USB is not GPS." If you're going to get paranoid, at least keep your technologies straight. You're essentially ranting here and it doesn't wash. Numerous manufacturers already use microchips in their keys to effectively make sure they're the right key for the car. This USB key is really nothing more then adding some accessible memory to an existing technology.

        Insightful?

        Paranioid.

        Mazda's doing something reasonably cool here. There's nothing wrong with it.

  • Security? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BlackCobra43 (596714) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:47PM (#13457405)
    How secure is this compared to a traditionnal key?

    Really, "keygens" could be given a whole new meaning...

    • Better than most. (Score:5, Informative)

      by tgd (2822) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:56PM (#13457520)
      Most car models that don't have a radio immobilizer of some kind (which is most cars) only have maybe 30 different keys for the whole model production. A lot of repo guys have key rings with all the standard keys for high-repo models.

      I've actually found a color/key collision before when I was a kid. My mom and I almost drove off with someone else's car until we realized it was WAY too clean to be our car and we were in the wrong one.

      Thats also why you can go online and order key dupes using the number stamped on the key or in some cases the VIN.

      (Not many people seem to know all you need is the VIN and a contact at a dealer to get a key, as well... and the VIN is visible on modern cars through the windshield)

      There is no real security with cars. If someone wants it, they can take it.

      • Not many people seem to know all you need is the VIN and a contact at a dealer to get a key, as well... and the VIN is visible on modern cars through the windshield

        To be more specific, you need to have a sketchy contact at a dealer. In real terms, this translates to "anyone in sales or financing".

      • Re:Better than most. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by lostchicken (226656) on Thursday September 01 2005, @04:36PM (#13458672) Homepage
        On the Lexus (at least on my IS), while there are only a few mechanical keys that are in circulation, each key needs a radio transponder in it that's interrogated to start the car. The ID is specific to the key, but you can tell the car (through a bizarre song and dance involving turning the key a couple of times and pumping the accelerator) to allow a new key to pair with the car.

        So, you can add a key to the car, but you need at least one key to get the thing in the programming mode. They don't store that code anywhere, so if you lose all four keys it came with, you have to buy a new ECU. Really, really expensive. Also hard to steal.

    • Re:Security? (Score:5, Informative)

      by owlstead (636356) on Thursday September 01 2005, @03:17PM (#13457774)
      There are many USB tokens on the market. Probably a few of them will handle 2048 bit RSA keys. This is as strong asymetric encryption as you'll ever need.

      What you do is you send a challenge (random bytes) from the car to the token. It encrypts (read: signs) the challenge with the private key. Now the encrypted challenge can only be decrypted by the public key. The car does this and if it finds the challenge it knows that the token has the secret private key of the public/private key pair.

      These chips can keep the private key pretty safe, so safe that it is really, really hard to get it ever out of the chip, even in a big lab. And with USB it is pretty easy to put some MB's or GB's next to it.

      All this said, such a key would be easy to loose (forget you put it in a computer somewhere), and USB has not such a strong connector (even if better than most computer connectors). I hope they used one that was designed from scratch. It's not so much the security that I worry about.

  • Oh great. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by GMFTatsujin (239569) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:47PM (#13457406) Homepage
    Considering that my USB key just died yesterday after about a year of use, taking lots of yummy files with it, my heart THRILLS at this news.

    • Re:Oh great. (Score:5, Funny)

      by ad0gg (594412) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:50PM (#13457461)
      Considering that my USB key just died yesterday after about a year of use, taking lots of yummy files with it, my heart THRILLS at this news.

      Yummy files? Is that the new term for porn?

  • Reliable? (Score:3, Informative)

    by EvilSporkMan (648878) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:47PM (#13457407)
    Every USB drive I've ever owned has started to get a little flaky after a bit, and I don't abuse them (except the first one). It'd be a bummer if I couldn't start my car because my USB drive had bad sectors.

  • Concept car only. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by CerebusUS (21051) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:47PM (#13457408)
    Cool idea, but wake me when you can actually buy one.

  • This is a BAD idea. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Tuxedo Jack (648130) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:48PM (#13457424) Homepage
    What if someone uses something like Ghost to dupe the USB key to a key of their own? Unless this is a chip-based key, it won't be secure at all - and I don't know about you, but I don't want someone going to Best Buy and buying a $20 USB key to dupe my car key onto.

    • Re:This is a BAD idea. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Piquan (49943) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:53PM (#13457491)
      As opposed to today, where they can go into any hardware store and buy a $1 blank and $3 service to dup your key onto another key?

      • Re:This is a BAD idea. (Score:5, Interesting)

        by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) on Thursday September 01 2005, @03:18PM (#13457782)

        Today I can borrow a key for a few hours and go get a copy made, or I can make an impression of that key in just a minute, cast a model, and spend a few hours with my dremel tool making a duplicate that may or may not be good enough. I can duplicate a USB key in just a few minutes while you're in the bathroom. This just makes it even easier for someone with common off-the-shelf technology to make a copy. It has added functionality, but it is also less reliable and may be a vector for computer viruses to infect your car. Personally, I'll stick with an old fashioned key and a hidden kill switch.

  • Driving Instructions? (Score:5, Funny)

    by dave-tx (684169) * <df19808+slashdot.gmail@com> on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:49PM (#13457440)
    The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions

    Sorry, but I don't want to be on the freeway with someone who needs instructions on how to drive.

  • Drives? Hard Drives? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Lead Butthead (321013) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:49PM (#13457444)
    The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions or music to the car's hard drive.
    So when the drive crashes, what happens? Are the vehicles owner permitted to make "archival" copies of the drive content? What sort of information are kept on these hard drives? Can the content of the drive be used against the owner in some way? Questions, so many questions...

  • What happened to RFID? (Score:5, Informative)

    by mungtor (306258) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:50PM (#13457460)
    RFID would be the way to go. I though that somebody (Mercedes, Lexus?) had one of their uber-expensive cars set up so that you carried an RFID chip in a credit card in your wallet. When you pulled up on the doorhandle it checked your ID and unlocked. Automatically locked when you got more than 20 feet away, and only had a push-button for a starter.

    Or, it could have all been a dream.

    • Re:What happened to RFID? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by SFEley (743605) on Thursday September 01 2005, @03:08PM (#13457665) Homepage
      It's not an "uber-expensive" feature; my Toyota Prius has it, and the car only cost $25,000. The RFID key's not a credit card, it's a fob on my keychain, but it's extremely convenient not to have to pull anything out to unlock my car or start it.

    • Re:What happened to RFID? (Score:4, Informative)

      by ptbarnett (159784) * on Thursday September 01 2005, @03:46PM (#13458116)
      My Acura RL has this feature, although it's not uber-expensive.

      The dongle is about the size of a standard remote, and has the same buttons on it (lock, unlock, open trunk, panic). The difference is that while carrying it in my pocket, putting my hand on the inside of the door handle unlocks the car. Touching a raised dimple on the outside of the door handle locks the car.

      Other features:

      • The trunk can be opened in the same fashion: just lift up on the release above the license plate while the remote is in your pocket or purse.
      • The car will not lock when the remote is inside the car. The trunk will not close and lock if the remote was dropped into the trunk.
      • The remotes are coded #1 and #2. Depending on which one enters the car, it chooses one of two sets of driver seat position, side-view mirror positions, steering wheel position, radio station presets, cell-phone hands-free directory (it uses Bluetooth to communicate with my phone, but doesn't have access to the phone's directory), and navigation system settings.

  • Soon to be implemented... (Score:5, Funny)

    by WombatControl (74685) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:52PM (#13457483)

    Rumor has it that Mazda will introduce the new flash-drive technology on the 2006 Mazda 3.1. In the future they intend to make a version that can start via a network and is outfitted for carpooling - the Mazda 3.11 for Workgroups - until they get an 8-cylinder version, the Mazda 95.

    (And while I may poke fun, I'm a happy owner of a 2005 Mazda 3, which is a damn good car - especially for the gas mileage...)

  • SCIF (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Copperhead (187748) <talbrech&speakeasy,net> on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:53PM (#13457488) Homepage
    My office is a classified environment, and USB drives ain't allowed in the door. Where am I supposed to put my keys?

  • My first written complaint about /. (Score:5, Informative)

    by Skynyrd (25155) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:53PM (#13457489) Homepage
    "Mazda switches to USB keys"

    Um, no.

    Mazda put a USB key in a freakin' concept car. There's no USB keys in any Mazda at any dealership now. It might happen some day down the road.

    "Switches" my ass. "Tries out"? "Messes about with"?

    Come on guys.

  • If by "Mazda switching to USB keys" (Score:5, Insightful)

    by spyrral (162842) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:55PM (#13457511) Journal
    ...you mean Mazda experimenting with using USB drives as a key in a concept car, then yes.

  • Ignition may not be in the drive (Score:4, Interesting)

    by devnullkac (223246) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:56PM (#13457527) Homepage
    The USB drive may simply be an add-on to the "keyless" ignition of the 2004 Prius: RFID authenticates with the ignition system when in close proximity. This way you've got a neat storage doodad, but the car will still run if your virus-ridden laptop reformats the USB drive.

    • Re:This should be an adventure (Score:4, Interesting)

      by nyrk (779328) on Thursday September 01 2005, @02:54PM (#13457496)
      This already happens in a way. In high school it was pretty well known that most toyota keys would work on most toyota cars. I had a toyota pickup, and even though the keys were not the same, I was on one occasion able to enter, and start up a friend's truck. He happened to be walking on the sidewalk, and I drove past him as I was moving it to the back parking lot. That took a while to explain. Later though, he did help me when I locked my keys in my truck.
      The point is, just because you see a failure mode in it doesn't mean that that he old way didn't have the a similar one

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