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SBC CEO: Pay up if you want to use our pipes

Posted by Hemos on Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:38 AM
from the the-next-battle-royale dept.
acousticiris writes "If there were any delusions that Ma Bell Wasn't Back, SBC CEO Edward Witacre has cleared that up in an interview with Business Week Online. When asked about Google, Vonage and other Internet Upstarts he responded in typical Ma Bell Style: 'How do you think they're going to get to customers? Through a broadband pipe. Cable companies have them. We have them. Now what they would like to do is use my pipes free, but I ain't going to let them do that because we have spent this capital and we have to have a return on it. So there's going to have to be some mechanism for these people who use these pipes to pay for the portion they're using. Why should they be allowed to use my pipes?'."
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  • Somehow (Score:5, Funny)

    by Short Circuit (52384) * <mikemol@gmail.com> on Monday October 31 2005, @11:39AM (#13915752) Homepage Journal
    This [bash.org] doesn't seem as funny as it used to be.
      • Re:Somehow (Score:5, Insightful)

        by orkysoft (93727) <{orkysoft} {at} {myrealbox.com}> on Monday October 31 2005, @11:48AM (#13915855) Homepage Journal
        What do you mean, their own demise? Google is one of the things that make the internet more useful and more attractive to people.

        Oh, wait, you mean that a useful and attractive internet means people are going to not sign up for SBC broadband! Of course, how silly of me that I didn't see your impeccable logic for what it is immediately!
        • by chronicon (625367) on Monday October 31 2005, @12:42PM (#13916372) Homepage
          Just another reason for me to never switch to SBC DSL. What a brilliant tactical move, I can't think of a better way to alienate your customers then by cutting off the very services that they are dispensing their funds to you to get to...

          This is sure to set off a firestorm of US bashing, but the first thing that came to mind when I read this quote today was the interest in the UN and/or EU in wresting "control" of the internet from the hands of the US. Is this the type of thing we would see if these other parties gained control of the root servers? Pay up or no DNS for you??

          Only in that case you (as a consumer) wouldn't have the option of punishing them for this outrageous behavior with your pocketbook by switching to another provider. You would just have to a) hope that the service provider (Google, Yahoo, whomever) would pay the piper; or b) you might simply be stuck if the service/information you wanted to access was deemed unacceptable and therefore all access to it via DNS was eliminated. (Hopefully you could root out [forgive the pun, I had to do it] the IP address on your own or you would REALLY be out of luck)...

          • by malkavian (9512) on Monday October 31 2005, @02:14PM (#13917126) Homepage
            Actually, the article seems to point to this kind of behaviour existing in the US. Not the EU. Still, that's neither here nor there, as I'm sure it exists in other countries also.
            Change the US and EU around in your statements and you can see exactly why the rest of the world is nervous about leaving the DNS in the hands of an organisation which is on a short leash to a governmental trade department.
            However, that's a whole other story, done to death in other threads..
            Do quite agree with ye though that the SBC quote seems a little heavy handed....
            • by chronicon (625367) on Monday October 31 2005, @03:18PM (#13917591) Homepage
              Oh, come off your high horse and actually RTFA before you start on your rant. All he says is that Google/et. all shouldn't get free access to his lines. He also points out that Google's customers (us) can't very well access Google without his lines or the lines of his competitors. Unless Google is going to get into the Tier 1 business then I don't see this changing any time soon.

              And, pray tell, what are the consumers paying for? What in the world is wrong with bailing from them as your ISP if they start blocking the services you want/need? What do you need them for if you can't Google?

              And another thing, who says Google is getting their pipes for free? I'm sure they pay a kings ransom for their leased lines.

              So... neither the consumer nor Google is getting anything from SBC for free. So I'm staying right here on my high horse thank you. This CEO is just trying to generate revenue streams out of thin air. If he implements that particular scheme, then if I were a customer (which I am not), I would walk away. Let's see how long his consumer internet services revenues last then...

              I don't hate SBC, I just think this line of thought for generating revenue is a really bad idea--as his level and on up...

          • Re:Somehow (Score:5, Insightful)

            by masoncooper (443243) on Monday October 31 2005, @02:24PM (#13917206)
            I think you missed the point. Google and Vonage are not using SBC's lines. SBC's customers are using SBC's lines (which they have paid for) to access Google and Vonage. This is like the RIAA/Apple skirmish, it's simply that one side sees money being made and wants a cut of it.
            • Re:Somehow (Score:5, Insightful)

              by JSBiff (87824) on Monday October 31 2005, @04:10PM (#13918082) Journal
              The problem is, Google, et. al. already pay for their pipes, too. Nobody is getting a free ride. The end-user pays for their broadband connection (as you've pointed out), Google pays for its Internet connection (Google must have one helluva broadband bill), and the ISP's have traffic interchange agreements between them (I think it boils down to whoever passes more data has to pay - if they 'trade' an equal amount of data, then they probably don't charge each other - although I'm sure it all boils down to the individual contracts that govern peering).

              The point is, this guy is a greedy jackass who is trying to make out like other companies are getting a free ride using the bandwidth I and they *already* payed for. If google, et. al have to start paying SBC for the bandwidth I already payed for, SBC better start giving me free DSL service (all this is hypothetical, as I currently use TimeWarner cable for internet access).

              The one potentially hopefull thing in all this is, because of the fact that cable companies are competing with the phone companies, (and things like city-wide WiFi networks are being created) SBC doesn't really quite have the clout that its CEO seems to think it does - just imagine what would happen if SBC suddenly disallowed access to all the websites/services that people normally use the internet for, because they didn't pay this fee? All SBC's customers would probably switch ISP's pretty fast, leaving SBC wondering what happened. Simply put, SBC needs Google, Vonage, and the rest of the Internet more than the rest of the Internet needs SBC.

              I still do wonder, though, what *geniuses* at the FTC have allowed the re-aggregation of all the baby bells after government spent massive amounts of money, and 10 years of litigation, trying to break them up.
      • Re:Somehow (Score:5, Insightful)

        by BlogPope (886961) on Monday October 31 2005, @12:07PM (#13916084)
        Why should they freely facilitate their own demise?

        Why should they provide their customers the service they signed up for? They promised to provide access to the internet for a certain price, not to some subset of the internet that agreed to pay their extortion. If they can't make a profit, why is this Cogent's fault? Did SBC inform their customers they would be used like this? Will they be compensated for being unable to connect to work because SBC's CEO isn't getting a big enough bonus check?

          • Re:Somehow (Score:5, Informative)

            by robertjw (728654) on Monday October 31 2005, @01:29PM (#13916750) Homepage
            Most of what you discuss are just basic CYA stuff for your ISP.
            • The 'offensive, embarrassing, pornographic' clause is there to save them if you start distributing kiddie porn
            • The restriction on business/commercial use is to keep you from taking advantage of their system by running a server or sucking up all of their bandwidth with multiple employees
            • The wifi thing is to keep you from sharing a connection with all your neighbors that don't want to pay for the service - although if you do it right I don't know how they could detect you running a router.
            As far as the NAT, check out http://www.no-ip.com./ [www.no-ip.com] I use their free service to ssh into my home machine on a cable network without a static IP. Been doing it for over a year and haven't had any problems yet.

            Bottom line is the contract, from what you relayed to us, doesn't state that they will filter any sites. It definitely doesn't appear to say that you can only access locations that have a contract with the ISP, which is what SBC is appearantly trying to do.
          • Re:Somehow (Score:5, Informative)

            by gte910h (239582) on Monday October 31 2005, @01:56PM (#13916972) Homepage
            Look at logmein.com...its not ssh, more like vnc, but it will work in your situation.
        • Re:Somehow (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Atryn (528846) on Monday October 31 2005, @12:17PM (#13916164) Homepage
          We all know that information wants to be free... apparently telecom lines want to be free too.
          That's right! And as soon as the world realizes that food, shelter, energy and access to clean drinking water also want to be free this will be a much better world...

          After that, I'll push for cars, entertainment and space travel... They want to be free too!

          • Re:Somehow (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Afrosheen (42464) on Monday October 31 2005, @02:14PM (#13917133)
            Telecom lines *should* be free. This was part of the telecommunications act nearly a decade ago. Big providers like SBC get government and municipality-granted monopolies in exchange for 'playing nice' with others.

              The original reasoning behind the friendly monopoly was to prevent divergent standards in telecom from emerging and to prevent mass destruction of public property. Think about it this way...one company, one city, many streets and alleyways. Any time SBC lays new fiber, runs new lines, erects new poles, etc. the city is well aware of it. The proper forms are filled out and streets are closed/traffic redirected/people are notified.

              Now imagine there are 4 telcos in your city. Each one will be on their own upgrade and repair schedule. Each one will fight for customers. Each one will be loathe to exchange with other companies' traffic. Each one will tear up streets during upgrade cycles. See the problem here? Telecom is considered important enough for city governments not to fuck with it, just like the power company. A phone, a water pipe, and power to every address is not too much to ask for.

              If our government worked better, i.e. wasn't so slow and wasteful, I'd wish that we'd have government controlled telecom. We could have a national telecom policy that'd bring us fine things like fiber to the home like Japan, Korea, *insert better connected country here* does. SBC is an impediment to progress, while they're in the position to push it forward, they have to make sure to squeeze every last penny out of what they've already invested. So of course, the CEO will boldly say 'you must pay to use our lines'. The shareholders would expect nothing less. Common corporate bs here.

              What would happen if they were unable to exact a charge on companies sharing their lines? To the shareholders, they're giving something away for free. To them, they're losing money on legacy hardware (i.e. the paths they provide have already been bought and paid for many times over). They fought like hell in court to prevent the telecom act, and it's easy to see why. The cable companies have the upper hand here, because the playing field is somewhat more level for them. They're not as strictly regulated and don't have to share their infrastructure with others. They still compete with each other and tear up public property occasionally but they're not as 'necessary' as SBC is. Yet. SBC has said time and again that if they had the right protection they would invest the billions required to put fiber to the curb. Verizon, in some areas, has already beaten them to the punch.

              Basically to sum it all up, SBC is becoming a model for corporate greed and sloth. Just like Microsoft or any other company that gets too big, they never want to play nice and share with others for fear of losing a few bucks in the exchange.

             
          • Re:Somehow (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Verteiron (224042) * on Monday October 31 2005, @12:29PM (#13916263) Homepage
            Actually since most consumer broadband "contracts" include a clause stating that they can be changed at any time without notice, SBC probably can change those just 'cause they see a new revenue source.
  • Uhhhh.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ShyGuy91284 (701108) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:40AM (#13915765)
    Don't they have ISP fees much like we do, whom probably pay the phone company for using their "pipes"?
    • Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by BlogPope (886961) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:54AM (#13915926)
      This is the same issue L3 and Cogent had. They have the customers, someone else has the content. Their customers want access to the content, but generally don't have any content themselves, creating an unbalanced situation. In days of yore, all ISP's had a mix of content users and content providers, and they all agreed to share access at no cost. No you have providers like L3, Comcast, SBC, and Verizon who specialize in the user side of the equation, and have various mechanisms in place to dissuade content hosting.

      By this very nature, they will wind up receiving far more traffic than they send. Now, these pipsqueaks (in the ISP world, they are small) are causing a fuss, wanting to get paid for all this extra traffic that is being put on their network, far more than they are putting on others networks. But what about the flip side? These ISP's are Leeches writ large, sucking other users content while providing non of their own. They charge clients $$ for access to the internet, then want to charge the internet for access to their clients.

      Bad stuff is coming. This will be fought amonst the smaller Tier 1's, and it will be a bloodbath.

      • Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by bigpat (158134) on Monday October 31 2005, @01:11PM (#13916600) Homepage
        They charge clients $$ for access to the internet, then want to charge the internet for access to their clients.

        Yes, this is what the middleman always tries to do, in the case of communications services that is why we impose government regulation, which in turn creates a whole new set of middlemen but this time with guns.

        Really what this fucker, Edward Witacre, is saying that his customers need to pay him twice for access to other people's content which his customers themselves go out and request. If he was talking about Spammers only, then that might be an acceptable point, but he wouldn't exaclty be looking out for his customers if he took kickbacks from spammers. So , really we are talking about content that his customers want and are already paying the content providers to receive. And apparently he is charging those customers enough money to make a profit already, so his "need" to charge the other end of the communciation to be able to respond to his customers requests is purely based upon greed not neccesity or any reasonable notion of equity and fairness.

        Also, we should beware QoS (Quality of Service), it is the ISPs way of charging for differentiation of services. If the ISPs have their way they will delay packets that haven't paid a QoS tax. Far from being a way of providing better service to those that need it, it is a way of getting those that need lower latency (and can "afford" it) to pay more. So, those that have money (businesses, rich individuals) will get screwed by having to pay more for Internet Access and those that are paying less will get screwed when their packets are queued up for whatever arbitrary amount of time will squeeze the most money out of people. QoS will kill the Internet as a flexible communications platform. QoS is the DRM of networking.

        • Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by electroniceric (468976) on Monday October 31 2005, @01:55PM (#13916959)
          in the case of communications services that is why we impose government regulation, which in turn creates a whole new set of middlemen but this time with guns.
          ..and the government at least has a charter to represent the public interest. When regulation is done properly, it means the regulators strike a balance between consumer interests (public as consumer) and business interests (public as worker and investor). The problem is that for 20 years there have been no serious efforts to make any forward reaching regulation, under the various arguments that "regulation always makes things worse", and "the government can't keep up with the market". There's some truth to these criticisms, but AFAICT the main problem has always been that we continue to allow vertical integration between a competitive market (carrier services) and natural-monopoly public infrastructure (phone lines and bandwidth). The minute we separate them, we can deregulate the carrier market all we like, and it will promptly commoditize. Telephone lines can be kept either a a government-provided service (which would probably make their quality work at at about the level of roads), or go back to utility-style control of the maintenance providers.

          This CEO says he "owns" the pipes. Fine, let's get the government all the way out of this venture. I want a reckoning of much money local, state, federal governments have put into the building and maintenance of those pipes. And if SBC's going to "own" them, they'd better cut those governments some big ass checks to compensate them for their investments, and the government can plow that into making the communications market competitive again. Otherwise, I hope the state AG's start looking hard in SBC's direction...
  • Empty Threat (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Godeke (32895) * on Monday October 31 2005, @11:40AM (#13915769)
    The comment is interesting, but an empty threat. The *customer* is paying for the pipes. The companies that the customer contacts are not using the broadband pipe except on behalf of the customer: any downstream transmitted across that pipe is paid for by the customer. As a specific example, I can pay for various downstream speeds with my cable company and DSL is ordered with a speed for upstream and downstream. That price breakdown makes it clear that the broadband payment I'm making is for both upstream and downstream, otherwise why would my upstream remain constant but my downstream increase if I throw more money at the cable company?

    On the other side of the fence the "Internet Upstarts" are paying for *their* pipes as well. Even the pipes "in the middle" are indirectly paid for, although that process can sometimes breakdown (as Level3 and Cogent are proving). It isn't like there is some magic way to get access from point A to point B "for free". The costs are just bundled in your access bills. What ticks off a telecom is that the prices for packets are so darn *cheap*. It makes land line voice look expensive, which is driving the adoption of VOIP.

    If they decide that paying for your pipes (both directions) doesn't give you access to the services you want, the only option is to impose filtering. If they decide to filter, block or otherwise prevent the customer from unhindered access to Internet products they will be in violation of the common carrier provisions. Which is fine if they want to then make a stab at blocking *all* bad stuff the Internet contains. However, I suspect that's not where they want to be, as without common carrier status they become liable for anything they *fail* to block.

    Frankly, all this comment proves is that they are desperate for revenue and yet know they can't raise rates on telephone services (thanks to regulation) so they are flailing around for anything they can think of. Legal probably sent him a "memo" right after that comment got back to them though, as I'm pretty sure *they* understand the ramification of the implied threat.
    • Re:Empty Threat (Score:5, Interesting)

      by AviLazar (741826) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:52AM (#13915903) Journal
      100% agreed. Google is not transmitting on XYZ's pipes on their own initiative...the customers are and they are paying for this. They are asking google to send them information - something they ask of ANY website out there. That's how the internet works.

      I hope ma bell actually tries to do this "Sorry you cannot access GOogle because they will not pay us a fee"...then the customer leaves the DSL company for the cable company. Also, this guy doesn't realize that internet transmissions piggy back all the time...so someone could make the same argument against this baby bell. "Yea one of your customers wanted to access XYZ website and because of this their ip route passed through our pipes...pay up or your customers won't get access".
      • Re:Empty Threat (Score:5, Interesting)

        by rk (6314) on Monday October 31 2005, @12:14PM (#13916143) Journal

        'I hope ma bell actually tries to do this "Sorry you cannot access GOogle because they will not pay us a fee"...then the customer leaves the DSL company for the cable company.'

        And what of the rumors (confirmed or not?) that Google has been buying up scads of dark fiber? Does this guy really want Google to decide to become a common carrier and eat his lunch too? What are they putting in the water on the executive floor these days?

        I give any company who tries to deny users access to internet services because the content providers won't pay them about 6-12 months to live. They need to come to grips with reality that information transmission has become a utility, and that people mostly just want to buy packets in and packets out. Denying the transmission of information when that's your only product is pretty damn stupid. If SBC tries this, I will buy puts on SBC so fast I'll make their heads swim.

        Well, not really, 'cause I'm a little fish, but you get my meaning. :-)

        • by ozbird (127571) on Monday October 31 2005, @02:26PM (#13917222)
          What are they putting in the water on the executive floor these days?

          Greed, which is a bad mix for their existing psychopathic tendencies. They need a commonsense and ethics infusion, stat.
    • by woodsrunner (746751) on Monday October 31 2005, @12:23PM (#13916210) Journal
      There is software that can detect VoIP traffic and even identify the carrier. Telcos use this to *protect their networks*, but it can also be extended to protect their profits.

      While it is illegal for Witacre to drop all VoIP traffic, it doesn't mean he won't be identifying this traffic and providing it with highly degraded service with added noise, especially if the call's destination is one of his clients. This way he can do his best to maintain his customer base since the average customer will believe that using VoIP is like talking through a tincan.

      Sure in the end the buggywhip tech of the old Ma bell will loose out, but it will be a prolonged fight. Witacre rebuilt ATT, he's pretty shrewd. -- the guy just single-handedly overturned one of the largest anti-trust cases ever. I don't think he's going to be easy to presuade with some little "laws".
    • Re:Empty Threat (Score:5, Interesting)

      by billn (5184) on Monday October 31 2005, @12:34PM (#13916314) Homepage Journal
      From http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/baitads-gd.htm [ftc.gov]:

      "Sec. 238.0 Bait advertising defined.1

      Bait advertising is an alluring but insincere offer to sell a product or service which the advertiser in truth does not intend or want to sell. Its purpose is to switch consumers from buying the advertised merchandise, in order to sell something else, usually at a higher price or on a basis more advantageous to the advertiser. The primary aim of a bait advertisement is to obtain leads as to persons interested in buying merchandise of the type so advertised.

      Sec. 238.1 Bait advertisement.

      No advertisement containing an offer to sell a product should be published when the offer is not a bona fide effort to sell the advertised product. [Guide 1]

      Sec. 238.2 Initial offer.
              (a) No statement or illustration should be used in any advertisement which creates a false impression of the grade, quality, make, value, currency of model, size, color, usability, or origin of the product offered, or which may otherwise misrepresent the product in such a manner that later, on disclosure of the true facts, the purchaser may be switched from the advertised product to another.

              (b) Even though the true facts are subsequently made known to the buyer, the law is violated if the first contact or interview is secured by deception."

      If an ISP (as in P stands for Provider), they can't filter/block access to anything and still sell 'Internet Service.' To do so means they become a Publisher, since they're controlling what you can access (I think AOL fits into this role in certain aspects), and that's a bundle of liability to make many companies tread lightly. If I buy service from a company offering 'Internet' access, I have a reasonable expectation that any IP based technology will work with it, be it software I run on my computer, or an off the shelf consumer device designed to work with the Internet. Companies providing bundled services need to step lightly on this subject. Selling me 'Internet' access, blocking VOIP transit, and offering a comparable VOIP service (for a fee, of course), is asking for trouble.
      • Re:Empty Threat (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Random832 (694525) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:56AM (#13915956)
        and they'll be dealt with in a similar maner how monopolist in operating system market where dealt with...

        with a slap on the wrist?
      • Re:Empty Threat (Score:5, Informative)

        by Tmack (593755) on Monday October 31 2005, @12:13PM (#13916131) Homepage Journal
        But if there is only one (is there more?) Internet backbone

        There are several "backbone" networks. The tier 1 orgs mentioned in the submission (Level3 and Cogent) are just 2 of them. Each has a network that spans a large geographic region and peers with many smaller networks and other tier 1 networks. This network of networks is the collective internet backbone. One could go away completely, and a good bit of the internet would still be around, just the customers on only 1 upstream provider would be on a network to nowhere, and would be unavailable to the world until their ISP got a link to a different tier 1. Though Level3 is playing like a monopoly, they are not, and got reminded of that with the result of their Cogent dispute.

        tm

        • by squiggleslash (241428) on Monday October 31 2005, @12:36PM (#13916340) Homepage Journal
          FYI, symmetric is not the same as synchronous.

          Synchronous means that the two bit streams (sender and receiver) are synchronized, so there's no necessity for breaking everything into bytes with start and stop bits.

          Symmetric, which is what you were actually refering to (as was the GP) is where one side is capable of transmitting at a faster bit rate than the other side.

          Nowadays, most serial modems simulate asynchronous operation at the RS232 port, but transmit data as LAPM packets over a synchronous connection, under V42 and its successors.

          Asymmetry in modems predates V34 BTW. There were a myriad of 9600+bps modems made in the mid-eighties where one side was clearly faster than the other, as modem manufacturers adopted various proprietary ways to squeeze more and more bandwidth out of the phone lines.

          In terms of ITU standards, the V23 standard (1200bps from content provider to you, 75bps back) was very popular in some parts of Europe, notably Britain where it was the basis for BT's Prestel system. Very suspectable to line noise, but it generally worked, and, being frequency modulated like V21, was cheap to implement with the techologies of the time.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 31 2005, @11:40AM (#13915770)
    Why should they be allowed to use my pipes?

    Because the customer is paying for them there pipes. Last time I checked, yip billed yesterday, I paid for my phone line, cable TV with broad band and if you want to include the cell phone, that is mildly broadband, then that too. Now Polyester Ed, if you are paying for my bills then you can say what can and can't go over the line; you want to regulate the neighbors line then you'll have to pay for that one too. I bet Google has some kind of leased line also but I doubt you can pickup their bill though; you'll have to ask them as I think they have some kind of business model or some other buzz word that will confuse you.

    Now I believe Poly Ed is talking about the backbone network infrastructure that becomes a little shady. Does it make sense to pay 7 cents a minute to cross these main backbone lines? I wouldn't push a $100 billion gorilla too far; you may find that they'll replace your lines with something they own and then you'll be paying them.
  • by the arbiter (696473) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:40AM (#13915774)
    Better question: Why the hell should I use SBC's pipes if they're going to be such dickheads about it?

    Now I feel better.
  • by dsginter (104154) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:41AM (#13915782)
    Better yet, why should we continue to subsidize a dying business? First, you bitch when municpalities try to install subsidized internet for the masses, then you bitch when people try to use a monopoly connection to eliminate your services.

    Stop whining and change your dying business model.
  • by SillySnake (727102) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:41AM (#13915783)
    I knew that slashdot was going downhill, but why are they posting stories about CEO drug use? Who really cares who uses which pipe to smoke thier stuff in. It's all about puff puff pass people!
  • by sycodon (149926) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:42AM (#13915797)
    You installed these pipes while you were part of a regulated monopoly, using public right of ways.

    • by Beatbyte (163694) on Monday October 31 2005, @12:00PM (#13916003) Homepage
      Exactly.

      Next thing you know, some county somewhere is going to charge Amtrak for driving through without paying.

      How about this... We give anyone who wants to be an upstart the same access to putting fiber in the ground as SBC and see if they like that.

      rant: Eliminating any monopoly in the United States of America has been impossible for some time now (see: campaign contributions). Personally, I think the telecommunications industry is one of the first that needs to be seized and freed back up.
  • Now you know... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Noryungi (70322) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:43AM (#13915803) Homepage Journal
    ... why google has been buying tons of dark fiber in the past couple of years.

    One of these days, this jerk^W typical CEO will realize -- too late -- that he has painted his company in a corner with that type of statement. By then, it will be too late to save SBC, but not too late to grant himself a huge, last-minute bonus.
  • by MDMurphy (208495) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:48AM (#13915851) Homepage
    What a moron.
    What the hell does he mean by people using his "pipes" for free? I pay every month for my access. And I'm not paying for wires strung to my house, I'm paying for bandwidth, for the ability to get packets in and out of my router. Nothing free here, I paid for it.

    Yes, there's someone on the other end making money on this and the greedy bastard thinks he should get "his share". Does he want that to apply to every transaction?

    I called and ordered a pizza for delivery last night. Do they get a cut?
    I checked my bank balance and paid a couple bills this weekend. Do they get a transaction fee?
    I do work from home some days. Do I need to give them a portion of my pay when I do that?

  • by Gumber (17306) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:50AM (#13915878) Homepage
    This sort of mindset is exactly why Google is dabbling in setting up WiFi networks and why Microsoft has been investing in community mesh networks. They need a credible alternative to DSL & Cabel internet access, or the providers of last mile connectivity will start looking for a share of revenue of everyone who delivers services over IP for access to "their customers" That's right, they want to charge you for the pipe on one end, and turn around and charge the people you are connecting to, on a per transaction basis, if at all possible.

    Don't think they aren't determined to find a way to do it.

    What's needed is enough competition to make it impossible for them, and that is going to take more than a choice between the cable company and the phone company, even better if some of that competition has ways of turning a profit beyond simply gouging for connectivity.
  • It's about VOIP (Score:5, Insightful)

    by quentin_quayle (868719) <quentin_quayle&yahoo,com> on Monday October 31 2005, @11:52AM (#13915896)

    In context, he is talking about VOIP.

    In effect, SBC is providing the means by which VOIP providers are competing with SBC's phone line business. That's what bother him.

    But he has to understand, if SBC is going to offer generic internet service, they have to tolerate customers using it for whatever they want. What Whitacre and his ilk would like is to regulate what customers can do with the service. This would start with shutting out competition and progress to charging for each protocol, port, destination, etc..

    We have to preserve the common carrier principle in internet access.

    • Re:It's about VOIP (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Control Group (105494) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:56AM (#13915954) Homepage
      He may think he'd like that, but he's wrong.

      If he starts regulating the content of data on his wires, he loses common carrier status. Now he becomes liable for every snuff/rape/bestiality site that crosses his wires in the US. He's liable for every pipe bomb HOWTO, every warez download, every mp3 stream, every alt.bin.illegal.stuff post, every pedophile in an IRC channel, et cetera, et cetera.

      At that point, SBC either goes out of business or spends truly profligate amounts of money - even in comparison to current business spending on Capitol Hill - to try and get common carrier redefined.
  • by fallen1 (230220) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:54AM (#13915924) Homepage
    since the American people subsidized them through TAXES and SURCHARGES WE FUCKING PAID. How about we, The People, take back the part of those pipes WE paid for and then you, "the corporations"*, can pay The People for using OUR pipes that you're making money off of. That way we, The People, can choose who WE want to be in control of the pipes. Just so long as Google stamps out an iron-clad privacy policy where they don't frigging data mine everything on the pipes I'd give all my pipes to them in exchange for fast access (something along the lines of 10mb/10mb would be nice) and the ability to host my own servers.

    *Please note that corporations are lower-case and should be treated as such. They should not hold the same status legally as The People (we're mentioned in the Constitution, not them). Period. I'm all for the "American Dream" but not at the total expense of We, The People.
  • Coming soon.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by JWW (79176) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:55AM (#13915939)
    Wow after comments like these I can almost feel the next article coming on about how far the US is lagging behind the rest of the world on broadband.
  • by Alain Williams (2972) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:57AM (#13915965) Homepage
    By any chance: did Edward Whitacre work in the music industry ?

    Pretty much sounds like it: trying to defend a business with an out of date business model by attempting to 'regulate' rather than trying to compete and give their customers what they want.

    It may take a few years but unless he changes business tactics his company will slowly die, just as the dinosaurs did when conditions changed and they did not adapt fast enough.

  • by Irvu (248207) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:59AM (#13915985)
    What's your approach to regulation? Explain, for example, the difference between you and Verizon in how you are approaching regulatory approval for Telco TV [digital-TV service offered by telecoms].

    The cable companies have an agreement with the cities: They pay a percentage of their revenue for a franchise right to broadcast TV. We have a franchise in every city we operate in based on providing telephone service.

    Now, all of a sudden, without any additional payment, the cable companies are putting telephone communication down their pipes and we're putting TV signals. If you want us to get a franchise agreement for TV, then let's make the cable companies get a franchise for telephony.

    If cable can put telephone down their existing franchise I should be able to put TV down my franchise. It's kind of a "what's fair is fair" deal. I think it's just common sense.


    Clearly this is a man who is comfortable with the idea of monopolies being granted to him (and not his competitors) and uncomfortable (even angry) about anyone figuring out how to compete with him. My read on this is that, given a choice between innovation and staying in a monopoly world where he is king he'll choose the latter.

    Welcome Back Ma Bell, we haven't missed you!
  • by jjeffries (17675) on Monday October 31 2005, @12:17PM (#13916170)
    I work for a small CLEC/ISP...

    In the circuit-switched telephony world, carriers exchange CABS (Carrier Access Billing System) records, which are redeemed for cash at the end of each month. For example, you call your Uncle Zed long-distance for one minute and are charged six cents or whatnot by your phone company for the privilage. Well, Zed's phone company will charge CABS to your phone company, and at the end of the month, Zed's phone company will get a check containing a cent or two in payment for completing your call. It's not a lot of money but the volume is very, very high, and a phone co. can make some decent cash if they terminate a lot of calls (think dialups.)

    Pretty obvious now where this guy is coming from, eh? Too bad the internet doesn't work like that! The best they will be able to do at this point is to work on screwing up peering agreements in their favor.

    IMHO, the big telcos will be the first with their backs up against the wall when the revolution comes.

  • by tobybuk (633332) on Monday October 31 2005, @12:39PM (#13916355)
    The guy who supplies a cable to your house has fixed costs and variable costs associated with supplying it.

    The fixed costs are the physical line, maintenance, exchange equipment etc.

    The variable costs are basically the calls, or are they? It costs them a fixed amount for the infrastructure to enable you to make calls. Once the mainly fixed costs of providing the infrastructure is met then profit starts. I know this is a simplistic description but it mostly hold water. So in effect the business is built around mainly fixed costs.

    However if you take away the revenue associated with the making of calls then something has to give to meet these costs which remain largely the same.

    This can either be reduced profit, reduced costs or an increase in the fixed charge.

    Reducing profit is something companies are unlikely to want to do. In SBC's case their profit $1.2 billion from $10.3 billion represents 11% profit. Not bad and they can afford to lose some from that. But get much below say 6-7% and alarm bells will start ringing. Not least they won't be keen on investing speculative money on a high risk, low margin business like say next gen. ADSL.

    Reducing costs. I dare say there could be some of this going on in a business of this size but after not too long they would have to reduce their infrastructure costs. And reducing infrastructure costs would eventually mean reducing service.

    The third option is to move the fixed costs onto the fixed costs the customer pays. IE The line rental and the Broadband supply.

    Doubtless there are other ways of looking at it but any way must address the issue of fixed costs being paid for.
  • by Atryn (528846) on Monday October 31 2005, @01:06PM (#13916569) Homepage
    Ok so I was about to post a gut response and then I went back to RTFA and thought it through again...

    Let's try the legacy Ma Bell perspective:
    You make a phone call to Joe. You initiated the transaction but both you and Joe pay for access to the network. Even further, in the wireless phone world both you and Joe likely pay per minute for the call.

    Now let's try a cable perspective:
    You want subscribers who will pay a monthly access fee. To get them, you need the best available content. You MUST get networks such as ESPN, CNN, ABC, NBC, MTV, etc. into your content package. You don't charge ESPN for access to your "network"...

    Similarly, newspapers:
    You need subscribers. You pay content creators (reporters, comic authors, etc.) for the content necessary to attract and retain subscribers.

    It seems the battle is which model does the data backbone (the Internet, if you will) fall into? Is it simply a network by which people and organizations can communicate with no guarantee or claims as to the quality of that content (a la the phone network) or are you selling end-subscriber access to a content service (a la cable TV or newspaper)?

    I think for SBC the answer is "yes". It's both. They have end customers who want access to the Internet FOR the content that's there. They also have customers who just want a communications network for data. Here is another way to look at the power of the organizations involved:

    Could a major Internet content/service provider (Google, CNN, Apple iTunes, Yahoo, etc.) approach a network provider (SBC, Comcast, AOL, etc.) and threaten to cut off those network's subscribers unless the network provider PAYS them for their content?

    This would be the true coup de etat in the industry. When a single content or service source becomes so demanded by end consumers that it MUST be available on your network to keep those subscribers. I don't know that any website is yet that important... Maybe Windows Update could be, if anyone used it. :)

  • "[T]here's going to have to be some mechanism for these people who use these pipes to pay for the portion they're using. Why should they be allowed to use my pipes?"

    Maybe because the more compelling bandwidth-intensive apps there are, the more demand there will be for bandwidth (i.e. "your pipes")?

    Vonage isn't stealing from you, they are selling your product! You can't use Vonage without a broadband connection. And if customers get used to running several apps like Vonage, they'll find that they have saturated their cheap $19.99/month DSL plan, which means they'll start wanting to bump up to the pricier plans.

    Nothing sells a platform like apps, and if you're the phone company or the cable company, you're the platform. You want to encourage the growth of these apps, not shut them down.

    • Re:so? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by meringuoid (568297) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:42AM (#13915795)
      makes sense to me.. what's the problem?

      Problem is that they're already paying for the use of the lines. What do you think your monthly ISP fee is doing?

      Seems he now wants to be paid twice.

    • by meringuoid (568297) on Monday October 31 2005, @11:48AM (#13915852)
      Broadband providers have never, as far as I can recall, provided bandwidth free of charge to their customers; nor would I expect them to. What am I missing here?

      Your man here runs a phone company. His customers pay him for voice service, and also he gets paid by broadband providers for the right to run internet connections over the same line (or possibly he sells broadband himself - I don't know exactly how it's done in this particular case).

      He has now noticed that some people are using the broadband connection instead of the voice service. There go his profitable long-distance and international charges! He charges a nontrivial amount per minute for a call to Tokyo, but these people are rolling it all into their modest monthly broadband fee! Aargh!

      The words 'buggy whip manufacturer' spring immediately to mind.

      • 1. The majority of lawmakers utilize the internet at home. Many of whom pay attention to the bills they pay at home, even if they are willing to spend 40k on a toilet seat at the office. Most adults do not allow their child to *call* overseas, but would think nothing about allowing them to visit an overseas website. If there were suddenly surcharges for every node hit along the way, the internets usefulness for the majority would suddenly decrease dramatically.

        2. The US is not the only country that provides access to (or content on) the internet. Lobbying the US govt. for the right to bill website owners will not fly. If the EEU says "No, we don't agree", what would the US government do in retaliation? Fortunately, congress does not have the power to legislate communication billing methods for the globe.

        3. Connection fees are already paid by parties at each end of any transmission. So, technically, there is already a double billing going on. What they are looking for is a third (and fourth and fifth...) helping.

        4. Monopolies are illegal in the US (and Canada, and probably most of the other big trade countries. Haven't checked tho). "Ma Bell" will never again be a monopoly. The law isn't the only reason, either. People are more informed today about the impact that monopolies have on prices and availability of service. We expect choice, and will not tolerate a single vendor option.