Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments
Search

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

Rat Brains Fly Planes

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Tue Dec 06, 2005 06:46 PM
from the bummer-of-a-support-job dept.
Technology Science
An anonymous reader writes "According to The Age newspaper, scientists at the University of Florida have created neural cell cultures capable of flying an airplane using rat neurons. No actual planes are involved (yet), but the disassembled bits of rodent are already capable of level flight when hooked up to a simulator of an F-22."
+ -
story
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.

Rat Brains Fly Planes 50 Comments More /

 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.

  • Just What We Need (Score:5, Funny)

    by susano_otter (123650) on Tuesday December 06 2005, @06:48PM (#14198300) Homepage
    A rat that can smart-bomb your rat-trap.

  • Think of the possibilities (Score:3, Funny)

    by Scarblac (122480) <slashdot@gerlich.nl> on Tuesday December 06 2005, @06:48PM (#14198302) Homepage

    Rodent brains may seem small, but think of where we can go if we can ramp this technology... One day we may have humans flying planes!

  • Good lord no! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Raul654 (453029) on Tuesday December 06 2005, @06:49PM (#14198309) Homepage
    Given this news, I can only imagine what the next round of layoffs at American Airlines will bring...
    • Makes one rethink those years of pilot training...
          • I'm failing to understand why it makes any sense to make a biologically-based self-levelling system when you can accomplish the same function with fully mechanical systems. If you add computers, you don't even need humans for the majority of the flight. Why put a rat brain on a plane if good aerodynamic design will accomplish the same purpose? Any relatively modern plane (as in the last 50 years) will tend to stay level on all axes if properly trimmed.

  • But can a rat brain post dupe stories? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Colonel Sponsz (768423) on Tuesday December 06 2005, @06:49PM (#14198314)
    What do you know - it's a triple! [slashdot.org]

    At least it's 2 months old this time and not still on the main page...

  • Training (Score:3, Interesting)

    by 920714 (920714) on Tuesday December 06 2005, @06:49PM (#14198315) Journal
    All they said was that they hooked it up to electrodes and a computer to train the brain cells to fly the plane in simulator. Is this basically the same as training an artificial neural network or is there some more complicated biological factors involved than the just shocking the cells when they veer off course?
    • Yeah, I'd really like to know how they "train" these neurons to fly. How do they know what to do, how do they know how to control the plane? Also, when they do badly, how do you punish them? Give 'em a shock? Since it's nothing more than a simplistic brain, I don't see how that would do anything. When they do well, how are they rewarded? Toss in a bit more Nutra-Grow into their formula?

        • Re:Training (Score:5, Funny)

          by susano_otter (123650) on Tuesday December 06 2005, @07:28PM (#14198583) Homepage
          But would one want to own a quasi-intelligent PDA that runs off rat neurons?

          You're asking the wrong question.

          The real question is: Would anyone not want to own a quasi-intelligent PDA that runs off rat neurons?

    • Re:Training (Score:5, Informative)

      by TheOtherShoe (714516) on Tuesday December 06 2005, @08:28PM (#14198931) Homepage
      There is some more information about how they trained the brain cells in this article: http://www.worldhealth.net/p/394,6110.html [worldhealth.net]. From the article,

      But how do the neurons learn how to fly the thing? That's done by electrical pulses into the dish through one of the electrodes. That in effect tells the neurons when they are doing the right thing to keep the plane on course. High frequency, or rapid pulses, stimulate the neurons and enhance the connections between them.

      Simply put, by stimulating the neurons the researchers tell them they're on the right track, so they continue to adjust the plane's elevator to keep it from plunging toward the ground during a downdraft, for example. When the plane levels off, the simulator reduces the frequency of the pulses, and the neurons back off from that control surface, allowing the plane to remain on course.

      After just a few minutes of that kind of training, the "brain" takes over completely, sending signals to the plane's control surfaces, and using feedback from the simulator to know just which signals to send.

      As I understand it, one or more of the electrodes function as correctness feedback for the brain cells. These electrodes become more active when the simulated plane is flying level and in the right direction. More activation in these electrodes causes more activation among the brain cells, and when activation is higher the brain cells form stronger connections. So when the brain cells are doing what they are supposed to their behavior is reinforced.
  • Ultra-intelligent spam filters. //yay!

    • Re:Next step... (Score:5, Funny)

      by vertinox (846076) on Tuesday December 06 2005, @07:20PM (#14198540)
      Ultra-intelligent spam filters. //yay!

      Hrm... You've given me an idea for an expiriment. I'll put a keyboard in a mouse cage with a full view of my monitor:

      If he jumps on the delete key and deletes a spam message, he'll get a peice of cheese.
      If he deletes a legitimate peice of email, he will get an electric shock.
      If he hits ctrl+alt+del, I'll be using him as tech support.

  • Exploiting poorly designed editors (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Michalson (638911) on Tuesday December 06 2005, @06:53PM (#14198350)
    Now people aren't even bothering to camouflage it when they troll Slashdot by taking advantage of the laughable editorial standards.

    Todays date: Dec 6, 2005
    Article date: Dec 6/7, 2004 (7 in the text, 6 in the URL)

    So, I'm guessing we'll be seeing a few dupes of this (though I'm sure it was on Slashdot last year too, so technically it's already a dupe), followed up by someone fooling the editors into posting a blatent advertisement or an update on the number of FireFox downloads.

  • ... already has a mouse. Next story?
  • the disassembled bits of rodent are already capable of level flight when hooked up to a simulator of an F-22
    ...right into the ground.
  • "When we first hooked them up, the plane 'crashed' all the time," Dr DeMarse said. "But over time, the neural network slowly adapts as the brain learns to control the pitch and roll of the aircraft. After a while, it produces a nice straight and level trajectory."

    Straight into a mountainside?

    I am sorry, but I do not want to be on a plane and suddenly hear a tone and, "Hello, this is your neural cluster speaking."

  • My thoughts (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 06 2005, @06:58PM (#14198390)
    I think it's significant that they chose a flight simulator instead of a more traditional "game" to teach the newly formed brain.

    Here's a couple of points to remember:

    The difference between the makeup, function, and behavior of a given type of cells between one species and another is so insignificant (remember, we're talking on a cellular level) that they can generally be ignored. You can almost always assume that a given cell type in one organism will behave identically to a parallel cell in another. The species that the cell came from is all but insignificant.

    Brain cells, (in humans and in other species) are amazingly versatile. While capable of specializing (vision centers, speech centers, etc.), these cells seem to be capable of taking on any function necessary for the benefit of the organism. For example, humans brains in which a specific part has been damaged (such as the vision center) have actually re-mapped other cell groups to take over that function. They do what they have to to survive.

    Brain cells are cooperative in nature: if placed in proximity to eachother, they'll work together for their common good (read: survival). They'll "instinctively" form a structure similar to how they're pre-designed to work. They'll form a brain--as fully functional as the situation permits. It doesn't necessarily matter how you arrange them, the brain cells can sort those details out--somehow.

    Brains look for order. We've known that for ages. Finding order is how a brain learns, it's how the brain separates relevant details from the background noise. The ability to identify order is the whole basis of intelligence. Every sense, every stimulus, every aspect of the brain has order-seeking overtones. This feature of brains is so absolutely universal that it must be deeply ingrained into the neurons themselves.

    Put those details together, and you end up with the following scenario: if you take neurons out of an organism and place them together, they'll form a brain. Probably not as complex or capable a brain as you started with, but a brain none the less. Actually this is the ideal brain to study, as you're starting "from scratch": there's no evolutionary specialization involved. Each cell will attempt to make sense of its neighbors, and as a result, the organism as a whole will attempt to make sense of its environment (brain processes are the ultimate in emergent algorithms). The brain will follow this behavior as if it were necessary to the brain's survival.

    Which brings us to the flight simulator. If you instead had the brain play with a chessboard or a clock, the results would probably be unimpressive. But a flight simulator--that's really the perfect environment. There's the potential for the brain to actually order its environment: there are equilibrium points that the brain will eventually find where it has greater control over its inputs. Assuming that flying too hight or too low creates a more chaotic state, you can likely expect the brain to learn to avoid it.

    In fact, I'd be very much surprised if you didn't actually see the brain cells start to specialize. Some cells will become responsibe for directly manipulating the flight controls based on the inputs from the brain. Some will attempt to maintain aircraft equilibrium in absence of any other input from the brain. Others will control the aircraft as a whole, their location in the network giving them a better overall picture of the situation than, say, the cells near the controls. Furthermore, I fully expect some cells to not participate at all: cells that are "out of the loop", so to speak, will proably cease most activity to avoid disturbing the overall process.

    I, personally, have been waiting to see this very experiment conducted and see the results. I think this is very exciting science
    • You wrote:

      The difference between the makeup, function, and behavior of a given type of cells between one species and another is so insignificant (remember, we're talking on a cellular level) that they can generally be ignored. You can almost always assume that a given cell type in one organism will behave identically to a parallel cell in another. The species that the cell came from is all but insignificant.

      Further you wrote:

      Brains look for order.

      Is it more productive to say brains filter out noise and

  • ah, Cordwainer Smith comes alive.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by elmegil (12001) * on Tuesday December 06 2005, @06:59PM (#14198403) Homepage Journal
    Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons are next.

  • Distracted? (Score:3, Funny)

    by autophile (640621) on Tuesday December 06 2005, @07:00PM (#14198409)
    "Alpha Charlie one niner coming around to two seven niner. Setting altitude to thirty two thousand. Alpha Charlie -- oh, look, a bit of apple!"

    --Rob

  • While it's true that an F-22 Raptor is a different bird to the docile Cessnas and Pipers that I trained on, for most planes "straight and level" is the default.

    Like when you let the steering wheel go in a car (DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!) your wheels castor so that the car stays straight ahead (and in most cars, slightly away from the oncoming traffic).

    If the rat brain could land a plane in a crosswind - then I'd be impressed!

  • What could possibly go wrong? (Score:5, Informative)

    by teneighty (671401) on Tuesday December 06 2005, @07:01PM (#14198421)

    Great. Not only are they immortal [slashdot.org] and fearless [slashdot.org] - now they can fly fighter jets too.

    What could possibly go wrong?

  • This isnt news, John Travolta has been flying planes for years...
  • Ratty Brainee Flee Planee
    1! 2! 3! 4!
    Ratty Brainee Flee Planee
    1! 2! 3! 4!

    Rodent wants a black helicopter
    Hover the sticky paper
    Raiding the larder

    Ratty Brainee Flee Planee
    1! 2! 3! 4!

    I want be one
    You want to have some
    With little a 'dungee
    They've gone past the bungee

    Ratty Brainee Flee Planee
    1! 2! 3! 4!
  • did you read the article at newscientist.com about rats singing (actually mice, but the author claims that his rat was a diva)....i get it in print, but it's now online - at newscientst, search for the article "romantic rodents"..."Tim Holy and Zhongsheng Guo of Washington University School of Medicine in St Louis, Missouri, recorded the vocalisations of male mice when they were presented with female pheromones and found they were far more complex than expected." and of course, rats are much more complicat
  • ...all this time we've been worried about sentient, super-intelligent machines taking over the world.

    What if it turns out that sentient but really, really stupid machines are a greater threat to humankind?

    Time to call James Cameron. I can see it now: "Terminator 4: Whoops, Wrong Button"!

  • How about... (Score:5, Funny)

    by eyepeepackets (33477) on Tuesday December 06 2005, @07:06PM (#14198458)
    ...a culture of rat brain cells which can detect year-old dupes on /. Now that would be both news _and_ considerable progress over the current method, which is most likely a culture of Cowboy Neal's brain cells in dire need of a vacation, a blonde and a bottle of diet Coke.

  • How about a cluster? (Score:3, Funny)

    by antdude (79039) on Tuesday December 06 2005, @07:25PM (#14198575) Homepage Journal
    Maybe a cluster can fly the space shuttle?

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2009 Geeknet, Inc.