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No Full HD Playback for 32-bit Vista
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:26 AM
from the get-what-you-pay-for dept.
from the get-what-you-pay-for dept.
snafu109 writes "Pity the Vista user with a 32-bit CPU. Senior Program Manager Steve Riley announced today at Tech.Ed Australia that full HD content shall only be played at the full resolution where only signed drivers are used — only in the 64-bit version of Vista. From the article: '"Any next-generation high definition content will not play in x32 at all," said Riley. "This is a decision that the Media Player folks made because there are just too many ways right now for unsigned kernel mode code [to compromise content protection]. The media companies asked us to do this and said they don't want any of their high definition content to play in x32 at all, because of all of the unsigned malware that runs in kernel mode can get around content protection, so we had to do this."'"
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Media companies are ruining innovation (Score:5, Insightful)
Free Windows Admin Tools [intelliadmin.com]
Re:Media companies are ruining innovation (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Media companies are ruining innovation (Score:5, Insightful)
I expect that most people who wind up getting Vista will get it on new computers. These new computers will most likley be 64-bit computers anyway.
In the end, the only people who will care are geeks. Everyone else will assume that it's a problem with their old computer. I can already here the meme coming up, "oh, 32-bit isn't enough for HD, you need 64-bit to do HD!".
The vast majoriy of people will assume that 64-bit computers are required for HD content due to some techy reason they don't understand. They won't believe that someone would intentially criple their computer.
Parent
Re:Media companies are ruining innovation (Score:4, Funny)
Dude, he didn't even use the term "here" correctly, and you're arguing about "meme"?!
:)
Parent
Cheap beats stupid, any day of the week. (Score:4, Insightful)
When getting something that normally costs money for free is on the line, never doubt the ingenuity of the Average American. (Or average person from many other countries, I suspect.) I know lots of people who can open a new port in their firewall, because they need to do that in order to download pirated movies off of Kazaa/Bittorrent/Gnutella/whatever. Or who can install Divx, because they need it to watch the AVIs they download.
I could keep going. The point is, the average person has the bare minimum computer skills they need to do what they want. They might seem like complete morons when it comes to doing something that we geeks think is important but they don't give a damn about (e.g. security, encryption), but when free shit is up for grabs, suddenly everyone and their brother wants to be an expert.
The real question here is "Will the average user care about watching HD?" if the answer is yes, and VLC or some other non-MS tool provides that ability (preferably for free), people will download and install it. They might not have the foggiest clue what they're downloading and installing, or how it works, and they probably won't care, but they'll do it if that's what's required to save a buck.
Parent
Re:Media companies are ruining innovation (Score:4, Interesting)
3-10 per cent of the population has always carried the civilization for the mute and disinterested majority, same as it always has. I really don't care about what the majority cares about. (Star Search, or some other "reality" show, isn't that the focus of the age?)
Parent
FSF are ruining innovation (Score:5, Insightful)
Much like the FSF "dictates" what some of it's users can do with its code.*
*Or to quote Linus, "he who writes the code, dictates the license". And to borrow another slashdotism. "If you don't like the license, don't use the code".
Parent
Re:FSF are ruining innovation (Score:5, Insightful)
You got modded troll, but you are actually really insightful.
It's somewhat sad that you are as insightful as you are, I would expect this to be common sense.
If you don't agree with the movie industry, don't support them. If you don't agree with the music industry, don't support them. By extension, that means all the electronic companies out there trying to screw you for them by proxy.
it's quite simple really.
Parent
Re:FSF are ruining innovation (Score:5, Insightful)
Except that FSF produces and thus owns the code it writes. The media companies do not produce computers or operating systems, and yet they try to dictate rules to the companies that do. See the difference? When Richard Stallman is able to strongarm Microsoft into removing all DRM from Vista, then your comparison will make sense.
Parent
Re:Media companies are ruining innovation (Score:4, Informative)
See http://mythtv.org/ [mythtv.org] and http://www.pchdtv.com/ [pchdtv.com]
Enjoy! I can do soooo much more with my myth box than a cable or sattelite provided pvr. I can store to DVD, I can watch from multiple networked locations, etc.
Parent
Re:Media companies are ruining innovation (Score:5, Interesting)
You see, the article is talking about HDCP DRM protected content, specifically blue ray and HD-DVD. To the best of my knowledge, there are no Blue Ray or HD-DVD players for linux, or OS-X for that matter, so even if windows only supports them on 64-bit CPUs, that will still be better support than any other OS has at present.
Parent
Yep (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Media companies are ruining innovation (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Media companies are *driving* security innovation? (Score:5, Insightful)
100 million individuals can be easily ignored because they produce white noise when speaking, but a dozen individuals with hundreds of millions of dollars can speak with a very clear voice and wind up with veto power over Microsoft. They have decided that everyone must upgrade their computers to watch HD content. (It's time to purchase shares in Intel, the top PC component suppliers, and the top 10 PC makers -- they'll all be selling more stuff as a result of this.)
The security needs of the individual consumer will continue to be largely ignored, except where they happen to overlap with the needs of really big clients like the entertainment industry. It's not clear how to aggregate those little voices to speak with one, loud and clear, voice, particularly as they don't know, on an individual basis, what to say or even that they need to say anything at all. I suppose if enough people start switching to Mac OS X or Linux, and cite security concerns as a primary reason, that might get attention in Redmond.
Parent
HDCP already has been cracked! (Score:5, Informative)
And working devices to "erase" HDCP from a video stream have already been produced and sold, e.g. this one: http://www.engadget.com/2005/07/21/the-clicker-hd
The "smart" part about HDCP is that it allows content manufacturers to revoke keys, so that new discs won't play on hardware whose key has been compromised. However, it seems fairly unlikely that manufacturers will actually do this, given that they'll break the hardware of thousands or millions of users every time a key actually gets revoked! Furthermore, as the cryptanalysis shows, it'll be fairly easy to create new working keys, so it's an ineffective defense anyway.
Conclusion: HDCP is leaky as a sieve. My bet is that it won't be long before there's a hassle-free open-source program that will simply remove it from content transparently, just as libdvdcss does for DVDs right now.
Parent
The good news... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The good news... (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Perhaps this is so that...... (Score:3, Interesting)
niiiiice (Score:5, Funny)
Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Because if Microsoft had said no, then the Media Companies would all have just jumped ship to Linux, thus destroying Microsoft's monopoly once and for all.
Seriously, in Microsoft's position they don't have to do *anything* they don't want to - I suspect large amount of money or other "incentives" changed hands here.
Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
(And screw them, break the partnership, be found with suspiciously similar IP, get sued, and then just grind everyone down with lawyers and stalling -- they do that by reflex, I gather.)
Parent
Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Funny)
Interesting - after all, thats precisely the line Apple uses about the DRM in ITMS songs.
Just another way MS is copying Apple
Parent
Re: Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
> Interesting - after all, thats precisely the line Apple uses about the DRM in ITMS songs.
At least we know who their real customers are.
Parent
For real? (Score:4, Funny)
an opening for competition against Media Player (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like an opening for competition against Media Player. If WMP is shipped brain damaged, what's to stop 3rd party apps from doing full HD payback instead?
VideoLan anyone? http://www.videolan.org/ [videolan.org]
Re:an opening for competition against Media Player (Score:5, Insightful)
This, combined with needing a new 3D card and new monitor - or a new TV - and having to splash out £500 for a player seems like just another nail in HD/Blu Ray's coffin before it's even started.
Parent
Yep (Score:5, Insightful)
So, I say what I say in relation to everything HD-DVD or Blu-ray: Boycott it. Don't buy it, just stick with DVDs. Doesn't mean you are shut out of HD content entirely, there are people doing some un-DRM'd HD stuff online (remember this new stuff doesn't mandate signed drivers for anything HD, just for anything with AACS, meaning HD-DVD and Blu-Ray). If HD-DVD and Blu-Ray fall flat, but regular DVD keeps going strong and new un-DRM'd content starts picking up, the media companies will have little choice but to drop it.
Parent
Umm. (Score:3, Interesting)
What hurdles will they have to get HD content on non DRM'd to death systems? Or am I off on a technological tangent which is impossible?
Scariest part ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
x32? (Score:5, Insightful)
Shocked! (Score:3, Funny)
Oh... wait... Never mind.
Malware? (Score:5, Insightful)
No HD? News to me... (Score:5, Informative)
Will it play DVDs? CDs? (Score:4, Insightful)
What I don't understand at this point, is why *anyone* would be interested in upgrading to Vista. Is it me or does it just seem like XP with bigger hardware requirements and more annoying "are you sure?" dialogues?
Re:Will it play DVDs? CDs? (Score:5, Interesting)
I honestly have not heard anything that makes Vista seem appealing, at least from a feature standpoint.
The only motivators for 'upgrading' to Vista seem to be the lock-ins. Take for example directX 10 being only for Vista. This means that I will have to buy Vista to play newer video games. And of course this is not because there is something inherently better about Vista - it is simply an artificial constraint.
The one technology that had me interested was the databasing file system, but it was announced that this was pulled from Vista long ago.
It's as if Microsoft is an automobile manufacturer from whom you must by the newer model car to be able to use the newly built highway. Not because the new car is better, any safer, or indeed really any different from your current car. But simply because it is a Microsoft brand.
I wish I could believe that the consumer will not stand for such blatant charades - but technology is merely magic to the lay, so they have no choice but to accept what they are told, and they will buy Vista because they 'need' it to watch new movies, and I will buy it because I 'need' it to play new games.
Parent
these people are nuts (Score:3, Insightful)
The future of Windows is not for me... (Score:5, Insightful)
When the computer I'm using ceases to be my tool for handling data of my choice, it instead becomes a box where I have to ask permission, and it even goes so far as to prevent grey are usage (new console emulators with disc readers, remixing content, memory editors, No-CD checks for games I own, etc.), then I'd rather not use that kind of system. It is no longer convenient for me.
Now, the question is, how do you convince 'average' people that the new limitations will no longer be convenient for them? Or will it be too late for some forms of content when Vista and other DRM systems are completely mainstream?
Ryan Fenton
Microsoft is the media's bitch (Score:3, Funny)
"Thank you sir may I have another?"
- Bill Gates
Another Brick in the Wall (Score:5, Interesting)
And, while I have an AMD64 machine, for the most part, I don't see that a 64-bit OS buys me anything except problems with older drivers, and possibly software, too, I don't know.
So, why do I want to upgrade to a Blue Ray or HD-DVD again? I have a nice collection of DVD's, the resolution looks just fine on my LCD monitor, and they play in Linux as well as Windows XP. Vista (a.k.a. "Windows DRM Edition") issues aside, it seems to be that the movie studios are killing both HD formats with their greed and paranoia.
You know what they say: "Pride cometh before you're eaten by the lions". Or something like that.
The worst lie ever... (Score:3, Interesting)
haha this is the worst lie i've heard these days...
any body should understand "AS our X64 platform doesn't sell very well , we hope by discarding 32 bit market to boost 64bit server and os shares..."
just my 2 cents...
Easy solution in C/C++ (Score:4, Funny)
Whose interests do MS products serve? (Score:4, Insightful)
And your customers (neither the users nor the EOMs) did not. Forces other than market forces are at work here.
And it occurs to be that Microsoft shareholders probably didn't ask for this either. Now would be a good time for Microsoft shareholders to ask Microsoft management for an explanation as to how telling customers "fuck you, we don't care what you want" is a reasonable strategy for maximizing the value of Microsoft's stock.
Only for WMP? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm sure the CEOs thought for a good three seconds on whether or not to try and fight this. One CEO probably opened his mouth to yawn, and before it was even half open the media industry had whipped out a big fat check.
Vista keeps looking more and more worthless. I think once (if ever) XP becomes useless to me, I'll just upgrade to Linux.
Sad. (Score:4, Funny)
MS and their nonsense (Score:4, Insightful)
It's like the secret agreements they have with computer manufacturers like Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. If you look at any IT or technology magazine, you'll notice that every advertisement for every computer states something to the effect that "HP/Dell/Lenovo/[Insert company name here] Recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional." I would be willing to bet that these companies don't actually recommend anything, but are required by their secret agreements with MS to make this statement, in order to qualify for their "discount" -- or else they'd be paying $299.99 for every copy of Windows they install on every computer, which would price them right out of the market.
Now I don't know if this is still the case, but it was a few years ago: MS also had, in those secret agreements, a clause that these computer manufacturers could not also install MS's competitor's OSes on the machines (Linux, for example). This was "proven" by then Be, Inc.'s then CEO "JLG", who offered BeOS for free to any computer manufacturer, to include free on any computer they build. Nobody took his offer. Now, you say that Be was not a competitor to MS, with only .0000000001% of the market at its peak? Then why did MS cite Be as a competitor in court, to prove that MS doesn't have a monopoly?
It is this monopoly power that allows MS to do what it does best: Crush its competitors and blackmail its customers (in this case, the computer manufacturers) with agreements that could not possibly exist if MS did not have a monopoly.
And here is where the above comes into the range of the topic: Since MS has a monopoly, they can now also blackmail those who write drivers. "Oh, you write drivers for Linux/Mac OS X, too? Well, then, we won't sign your Windows drivers." Which means that 90% of the market won't buy this piece of hardware, or they will return it to the store when they realize that it doesn't play full HD, even on 64 bit Vista, since the driver is not signed. Which means that you can expect the major graphics card vendors to stop producing drivers for other systems.
Blackmail. Where do you want to pay us against your will for software you don't want today?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Since you already have the DVD why should you pay just for a new format. You have a license to watch the movie or show so why should the resolution matter?
Re:Get a Mac (Score:4, Insightful)
Dude... no where in this discussion is there room for Apple. This is a Microsoft sucks because... well... they just suck conversation. Apple hasn't even released a machine that can play HD-DVD or BluRay Content yet. But... really it is a moot point because when Apple does include one, they will require you to buy a new Mac to use it. So, if a 64 bit OS is required for Apple, you would probably never hear about it because it would be your only choice. The right answer from Microsoft would of been to prevent OEMs from selling any more 32 bit copies of Windows 6 months ago.
alt.binaries.hdtv "posts" do not figure into this conversation as well.
and for the record... I am a diehard Apple fan, but I also know that they have a history of not supporting new hardware on older machines.
Parent
Re:Media companies are ruining innovation (Score:5, Insightful)
Keeping the HD hardware from running on the machines that most people have, would really be the nail in the coffin of legitimate HD distribution.
It's like they want to guarantee that people find illicit ways of obtaining HD content. First, they're going to make the players incompatible and obnoxiously expensive, by failing to agree on a single format for physical distribution. Then, they decide that the only kosher way to play back legitimately acquired (which implies DRMed) HD content, is with new hardware and software.
Excuse me if I'm not impressed. What does this leave the average person who wants HD to do? Well, you just download it illegally. It's pirated content, distributed in un-DRMed formats, that's going to be most people's first taste of HD on their computer.
The DRM will always be broken: somewhere inside that cable box or LCD monitor, is an unencrypted digital signal. With the right test equipment, somebody will figure out how to get it back into a computer and record it. From there, they need only to compress it with one of the many HD-capable codecs and video formats available and playable right now (H.264 inside an AVI or Quicktime container), and dump it onto the P2P networks.
This smacks of what we saw happen with MP3 music a few years ago. The music companies feared it, and hoped that they could kill MP3 by using proprietary formats instead (anyone remember ATRAC3?). Instead of buying the legitimate, overpriced garbage that the recording industry tried to foist on them, consumers ignored it and got their MP3s illegally instead. By ignoring demand, the music companies gave up billions of dollars in revenue and created a generation of buyers who got used to getting music for free.
The movie and video companies, together with electronics manufacturers, have an opportunity now to not repeat history. If they give the market what it wants -- HD movies without onerous restrictions, playable on the hardware they already have (which by-and-large is technically capable of the task), sold at a reasonable price -- they could start making money immediately. Instead, I think they'll probably resist the inevitable outcome as long as possible, and waste millions (or billions) of dollars in misplaced technological development and make criminals out of their would-be customers in the mean time.
Parent