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Bounty For Booting XP on the Intel iMac

Posted by CmdrTaco on Tue Jan 24, 2006 08:58 AM
from the what-a-waste dept.
Operating Systems Software Businesses Apple
An anonymous reader writes "The race is on. You can try to get the bounty for booting Windows XP on iMac. At this moment there is $2773 waiting for the winner. However several people have brickified their iMacs when playing with EFI." I imagine those tech support calls are hysterical ;)
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Bounty For Booting XP on the Intel iMac 50 Comments More /

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  • Charity Suggestion: (Score:3, Funny)

    by TripMaster Monkey (862126) * on Tuesday January 24 2006, @08:59AM (#14547817)

    From TFA:
    If it is determined impossible to boot Windows on the Mac by March 23, 2006, all donations will be donated to a charitable cause (please send suggestions to charity@pintmaster.com).
    Here's a suggestion for a charity...how about a charity for all the poor saps who've hosed their iMacs trying this stunt? ^_^

    • I suggest the Free Software Foundation (Score:5, Funny)

      by ettlz (639203) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:09AM (#14547885) Homepage Journal
      in a twist of irony. Or the EFF.

        • Re:I suggest the Free Software Foundation (Score:5, Insightful)

          by HuguesT (84078) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:30AM (#14548016)
          > Shouldn't it be illegal for a computer vendor to force you to only use a
          > particular OS on your computer?

          Apple isn't forcing anybody to run OS/X. I'm quite sure people buying Macs do it of their own volition. Furthermore I'm pretty sure Linux will be booting on these machines quite soon, this should answer this worry.

          On the other hand there is no requirement on hardware manufacturers that their machines must be made to boot Windows, just because they have an x86-compatible chip inside.

          • Re:I suggest the Free Software Foundation (Score:5, Informative)

            by linuxfanatic1024 (876800) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @11:36AM (#14549026) Homepage
            On the other hand there is no requirement on hardware manufacturers that their machines must be made to boot Windows, just because they have an x86-compatible chip inside.

            EXACTLY!!! Most people don't get the idea that two computers can be completely different even if they have the CPU in common. Some examples:

            - Z80: Game Boy, Game Gear, TI graphing calcs, and CP/M machines all have the same processor but totally different architectures.

            - Motorola 680x0: Classic Macs, Amigas, and 68k-based TI graphing calcs are all different

            - PowerPC: Power Macintoshes and PREP machines are incompatible.

            Perhaps the x86 Macs are PC-compatible, but nothing says they HAVE to be. Just look at history.

            • Re:I suggest the Free Software Foundation (Score:5, Insightful)

              by JonathanBoyd (644397) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @10:41AM (#14548529) Homepage
              When did they remove BIOS? Macs have never used BIOS. People haven't bought a computer that Apple have come round and pulled a chip out of. They designed a computer that doesn't use BIOS... just like all the other computers they've been designing. In what sense can they be said to have removed something that was never there in the first place?

        • Re:I suggest the Free Software Foundation (Score:5, Insightful)

          by SteveAyre (209812) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:30AM (#14548018)
          More like the choice of using unleaded petrol or diesel in your car, or a particular tire size.

          You can use the other if you like, just don't expect it to work as well anymore if at all.

          The fault is with Windows AFAIK not supporting the hardware anyway, which is hardly surprising when it was written several years before Apple announced that they'd be moving to Intel.

  • I'm sorry (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:01AM (#14547827)
    Who would want to boot Windows XP normally?

  • Brickified? (Score:4, Informative)

    by SpooForBrains (771537) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:02AM (#14547832)
    Not to be too picky, but the correct word, I believe, is "bricked". Although whether there's an actual dictionary definiton of the word in this context I do not know.

  • Bricks are useful too (Score:3, Funny)

    by FullMetalAlchemist (811118) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:06AM (#14547866)
    [...]However several people have brickified their iMacs when playing with EFI.

    Aha, but don't worry, just ask these nice people [netbsd.org] to add bricks to their existing set of architectures [netbsd.org] ;-)

  • Don't they have this backwards? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SlickCow (196542) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:07AM (#14547871) Homepage
    What I want is to boot MacOS on my PC. How about a bounty for that?
    • Absolutely. Booting windows on a mac is sort of like booting OS/2 Warp on a mac. An interesting exercize, but of doubtful usefulness.

      Hey honey, guess what? Our Mac is now vulnerable to the Kama Sutra worm! Aintcha proud of me?

    • Re:Don't they have this backwards? Here you go (Score:4, Informative)

      by mobby_6kl (668092) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:28AM (#14548000)
      Installing and booting OSX on PCs. [profit42.com]
      I expect to receive my rightfully earned $2500 by midnight.

    • No, because... (Score:4, Informative)

      by daveschroeder (516195) * on Tuesday January 24 2006, @10:39AM (#14548518)
      - there is no legal way to do it (there is also currently no way to buy a standalone copy of Mac OS X for Intel, even if you choose to ignore the license agreement)

      - the Mac OS X license agreement specifically states that Mac OS X can only be installed on a single Apple-branded computer

      However,

      - the Windows license agreement allows for this

      - it is legal to purchase a license for Windows and use it on any machine desired, including an Intel-based iMac

      Microsoft is a software company. Apple is a hardware company.

  • No EFI backwards compatibility module on iMacs (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Randall311 (866824) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:12AM (#14547903) Homepage
    Therefore getiing XP to boot natively won't happen. There is still a chance at booting Windows Vista though, as it supports EFI. The only thing to overcome is the ACPI requirement that Vista has. The intel chip and mobo inside the iMacs stupport ACPI, but of course it has been removed from Apple's version of EFI. Find a way to get ACPI support onto the Mactel's EFI, and you should be able to have a dual boot config with Windows Vista.
    • Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only part of XP that needs the BIOS is the bootloader.

      So, only one of two things need to happen: Either someone rewrites NTLDR for EFI systems, or someone needs to create a fake BIOS enviornment. The LinuxBios people had a way of faking a real BIOS to boot XP, so going EFI -> Linux -> Windows might be possible also.

  • UNBRICK your Intel iMac (Score:5, Informative)

    by Knytefall (7348) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:13AM (#14547907)
    From Dave Schroeder, posted to http://nak.journalspace.com/?cmd=displaycomments&d cid=407&entryid=407 [journalspace.com]

    By following these steps, the iMacs that had difficulty with certain EFI modules appear to have been restored to a functioning state:

    1. Disconnect the internal hard disk
    2. Disconnect the iMac from AC power
    3. Plug in AC while holding the power button
    4. Power up the iMac and zap NVRAM (cmd-opt-P-R)
    The hard disk can be reformatted and the operating system restored.

      • Re:Plug in AC while holding the power button??? (Score:4, Informative)

        by daveschroeder (516195) * on Tuesday January 24 2006, @10:58AM (#14548659)
        Um, I'm one of the people who originally was left with an Intel-based iMac that would no longer boot. Both the blog's owner (Nakfull Propaganda) and one of the other posters in the comments also had the exact same issue when attempting to load EFI modules that presumably were unsupported by, or otherwise disagreed with, Apple's EFI implementation.

        The steps I posted apparently reset something related to the NVRAM or firmware in the machine, and allow the machine to be revived (albeit after formatting the hard disk). Considering my contact information is everywhere, and I posted all of my contact details in every blog post I made, it's ridiculously easy for people to contact me and/or see who I am and what I do.

      • Re:UNBRICK your Intel iMac (Score:4, Informative)

        by daveschroeder (516195) * on Tuesday January 24 2006, @11:15AM (#14548815)
        Um, you don't.

        Sorry the instructions weren't more specific.

        After you plug in the iMac while holding the power button (at this time that appears to be the equivalent of the old PMU/motherboard reset) and zap the NVRAM (probably not required after the reset, but I included it because that was in the series of steps I performed), you can reconnect the hard disk. You can then boot from the DVD installation media, reformat the drive, and restore the OS.

        You don't disconnect or reconnect the hard disk while the machine is running.

  • Xen and Vanderpool (Score:3, Interesting)

    by affinity (118397) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:19AM (#14547946) Homepage
    Does the "Core Duo" processor include the Vaderpool virtualization extensions.
    And if Xen is able to use Vanderpool to transparently support WindowsXP/2003 then, would using Xen be the best way to go, with out having to deal with the Boot issue.
    • 1) domU instances don't get access to the graphics hardware. If you want hardware video acceleration, virtualization is currently not an option. There's a chance that you can do it in a case where your system has multiple video cards, but so far there is no solution for concurrent access to the same video card.

      2) dom0 instances (generally considered the "host") OS actually run under Xen too. Apparently (according to the Xen mailing lists) dom0 OSes actually need more modifications than domUs. Thus, it
  • 1.Walk it into any Apple store or Apple authorized repair shop.
    2. Tell them your mac stopped working.
    3. When they ask you for the symptoms, tell them it showed a spining ball in many colors, like a rainbow. Then it beeped. Then it told you to reboot in many languages.
    4. When you rebooted it, it refused to power up.
    5. The proper answer to any probing questions is "uh, I don't know."

    Under any circumstances are you to give the impression that you know more about macs than the guy taking your repair order. If the contents of the drive are an issue, take the drive out, connect it to another machine and delete the partitions. Check out the "user installable parts" document for your mac, it will tell you the exact procedure for pulling a drive without voiding the warranty. For the first generation iMac G5 it even tells you the color of the 3 screws that you need to remove, I bet that has not changed with the Intel version.
    • Wrong. There is no warranty-safe user access to the iMac HDs. You can't get past the iSight cable or something. All it allows is memory under warranty, which is actually less than my iBook allows (memory+AirPort)
    • Yes, lets advocate fraud. Good one.
    • Or alternatively, you could call them and tell them what actually happened. That way they can diagnose the fault, and fix it. In the event that the person you talk to is someone who reads Slashdot and is therefore convinced that someone experimenting with different commands on their computer is actually doing something illegal, immoral, or just "against the Man(tm)" and that Apple is perfectly within their rights to not honour a warranty under such circumstances, you ask to speak to their supervisor.

      There is no reason why typing commands at a prompt should completely brickify a computer. Result in data loss? Yeah. Mean you have to reinstall the OS? That's fine. But render a computer utterly incapable of being restored to a usable state by the user? Absolutely not. We're not talking about plugging the AC cable into the Firewire slot here, or dropping it from the top of the Empire State Building, we're just talking about experimenting with the subsystem that boots the computer in order to try to, legitimately, boot another operating system.

      This isn't a slam against Apple here. I suspect these machines do, indeed, have a by-pass somewhere in them to restore the firmware (there's already a supposed fix circulating which may actually be the solution), and there are plenty of companies that also make it relatively easy to brick their systems (would it be too fucking much to add a $5 ROM to your $800 laptops that contains a "good" version of the firmware in case there's a problem with the flash?); far from it: I have great difficulty believing Apple would refuse to honour a warranty over such an issue, and I suspect, ultimately, they'll have a KB article up soon enough ensuring users can fix the issue themselves. In the event they do not, I'd be surprised if they're not seeing this as a design flaw, rather than a user issue.

  • OH NO, The slashdotters cometh. (Score:5, Funny)

    by colin_n (50370) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:20AM (#14547957) Homepage Journal
    I just got a message from a friend of mine saying I have been /.ed . Now my life is complete

  • Tech support brickfied call (Score:5, Funny)

    by digitaldc (879047) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:24AM (#14547974)
    However several people have brickified their iMacs when playing with EFI. I imagine those tech support calls...

    UserX: Hi, is this Apple tech support?

    Tech Support Operator 213453098: Yes, how can I help you?

    UserX: Well, I was trying to win a contest by booting Windows XP on my iMac and then totally brickified it.

    Tech Support Operator 213453098: Oh that's too bad, can you please start from the beginning?

    UserX: Okay, I had XP copied to a disc, I put it in the iMac and fiddled with the EFI a bit to boot XP and all of a sudden I had a screen with a bunch of letters and numbers on it. I tried to hardboot it and get back OSX, but it failed...so I brickified it.

    Tech Support Operator 213453098: So you corrupted your iMac to the point will it will not boot at all?

    UserX: No, I got so mad I just threw a brick at it - now it's just a pile of sparking wires and smoking plastic.

    Tech Support Operator 213453098:     Please hold, let me transfer you to our anger management department. You estimated wait time is... thirty-five .... minutes. Have a great day, sir.

  • Bounty & booty (Score:3, Funny)

    by Conanymous Award (597667) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:42AM (#14548118)
    I actually first thought the topic was "Get booty for bounting XP..." Now there's a challenge for nerds!

  • "I imagine those tech support calls are hysterical (Score:4, Funny)

    by Caspian (99221) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:43AM (#14548123)
    ...you insensitive clod!

  • Pirates want in on this (Score:4, Funny)

    by digitaldc (879047) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @10:00AM (#14548247)
    A bounty for booty ye say?

    ARRRRRRRRRRR!

  • Article: Will Macs boot Windows? (Score:5, Informative)

    by DECS (891519) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @11:24AM (#14548903) Homepage Journal
    EFI isn't the only problem for the new Macs to run Windows. I wrote an article that looks at a range of problems: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/Jan06.IntelMacsWin1. html [roughlydrafted.com]

    • Re:BartPE (Score:5, Informative)

      by TheRealMindChild (743925) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:07AM (#14547867) Homepage Journal
      No, it shouldn't. You apparently either have no idea what BartPE is, or ou completely failed to even read the article summary.

      BartPE is simply a custom version of XP that can boot from removable media. The EFI rom on the MacTel machines seems to forbid booting an El Torito volume.

      • Re:BartPE (Score:3, Insightful)

        by larkost (79011)
        Change "forbid booting" to "not have support for". Apple has not done any work to support booting, that means they don't include things that they don't need, but might be needed for Windows. they are not hindering you from booting Windows, just not helping you either.
    • It's to prove you can. Just like the people who hack IE to run on Linux in WINE, there's a lot of geek credit (and 15 minutes of fame) to be gained by doing this. If I had a mac, I'd try for it.

      Short answer: Because you can.

    • For the last time... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by copponex (13876) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:14AM (#14547914) Homepage
      If I could have a dual core machine with a really nice graphics card, and the machine was also cool, quiet, and attractive for $1300, and I could boot any OS I wanted on it (OS X, Linux, XP), I think I don't qualify as perverse. The iMac is a compact and powerful machine, and there's nothing available like it at the moment. Furthermore, give me the choice between carrying around two laptops or one (especially for developers or on-site technicians), can you possibly guess which one would be less expensive?

      So, please, just drop this joke. It's been told a million times. If you don't have anything useful to say, just save your breath.

    • Re:Why? Seriously (Score:5, Insightful)

      by LurkerXXX (667952) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:27AM (#14547989)
      Right, because no one else has other software needs than yours.

    • Re:Why? Seriously (Score:5, Insightful)

      by NutscrapeSucks (446616) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @09:32AM (#14548033)
      Turn your argument around. Nobody really "needs" a Mac in the first place. We could get everything we need to get done on a standard Windows PC, but instead we buy Macintoshes because we *want* to, not because we need to.

      Surely you will admit that there are some very popular Windows packages that have not been ported to the Mac. As well about a million inhouse and vertical software packages designed for Windows. A lot of people in the Mac community see this as something that would be legitimately useful to them, and not just "because it's there". They're doing this because they think it would add value to their Mac system.

    • Wine? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by millahtime (710421)
      Now that macs use an intel chipset and the backend is BSD based, can't one just use wine to run their MS apps? Just like in freebsd/linux/unix? When I get my MacBook that is one of the first things I will be taking for a spin.

    • There are many reasons. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by pavon (30274) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @11:10AM (#14548766)
      If you do webdesign, you need to check your pages in Explorer.
      If you do application software, and your users are on windows.
      If you do embedded software, and the dev kits are windows only.
      If you do electrical design, you will probably need to run OrCAD.
      If you do drafting, you will probably need to run AutoCAD.
      If you teach and your school requires a specific application for grades.

      Since MS Office was ported to the Mac, most business people will probably be able to get by without using windows. For graphics work, all the professional tools are also on the Mac, so they can get by just fine as well. There are also many good audio tools as well, although most professionals use a mix of Mac and Windows software (plus that one that boots up without a seprate OS).

      However for many people, they really don't have that option. Even if there are replacements apps on the Mac that are as good or better than the windows based industry standards, compatibility with others pretty much forces you to have a copy around.
    • That'll probably have to wait until Apple is selling an Intel-compatible version of OS X. At the moment they sell machines with one loaded, but they only come with recovery disks, not full installers. (And the recovery disks are probably locked to that particular model, which limits your options when you hack.)

      The next version of OS X will have it on the DVDs, and that is when the real hacking will commence...

        • Re:the opposit (Score:5, Interesting)

          by Golias (176380) on Tuesday January 24 2006, @10:52AM (#14548621)
          The "restore" DVD contained a normal Mac OS X 10.4 installer

          It has recently been established that the "normal" Mac OS X 10.4 DVD which comes with the new iMac will not work on other Macs.

          I believe that's what the grandparent post wast bitching about.

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