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Beware Your Online Presence
Posted by
Zonk
on Sun Mar 19, 2006 06:21 PM
from the watch-what-you-put-out-there dept.
from the watch-what-you-put-out-there dept.
Mz6 wrote to mention an article in the NY Daily News stating that an increasing number of employers are Googling their prospective employees during the interview/hiring process. From the article: "'A friend of mine posted a picture of me on My Space with my eyes half closed and a caption that suggests I've smoked something illegal,' says Kluttz. While the caption was a joke, Kluttz now wonders whether the past two employers she interviewed with thought it was so funny. Both expressed interest in hiring Kluttz, but at the 11th hour went with someone else."
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The moral of the story is... (Score:4, Insightful)
RTFA! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:RTFA! (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/401069p-33
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RTFBlog! (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.myspace.com/comeoncolleen [myspace.com]
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Simple to avoid. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Simple to avoid. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Simple to avoid. (Score:5, Insightful)
You really can't expect to control anything but your own actions.
Seems to me the better solution is to google for yourself once in a while, and if you see anyone posting anything troublesome that includes you, contact that person directly.
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Re:Simple to avoid. (Score:5, Funny)
At the first interview, I make up a story about how I'm in the Witness Protection Program.
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Re:Simple to avoid. (Score:5, Insightful)
I am pretty sure, I am not the only one this has happened to.
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Re:Simple to avoid. (Score:4, Informative)
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What is "good stuff"? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's quite simple to prevent this from happening to you. Post "good stuff" under your real name, perhaps linked to a professional-sounding alias, and post other crap under another alias that you never link to your real name.
As others have already pointed out, it's difficult to make sure that every person in the world who has a photo of you won't post something that isn't very flattering. But even ignoring that for the moment, what consistutes "good stuff" in your mind is likely to change. Suppose you are a first-year student in grad school and you post something under your real name stating that your dream is to become a professor. Very noble, very "good stuff". Fast-forward several grueling years when you are burned out. Your goals have changed and academia doesn't sound so great. You start interviewing for companies and tell them during the interview that you have a strong interest in tackling today's technical problems.
After you leave, the people you interviewed with start googling around to see what they can dig up on you and come across this thing you wrote many years earlier. Now there's doubt in their mind. Are you looking at an industrial position because you didn't get a postdoc? Are you just looking to make some big bucks in the private sector for five years before returning to what you love -- academia? Maybe I trust you and realize that your priorities have changed. How do I know they won't change back? You wrote so eloquently about the fact that your life-long dream was to become a professor a few years ago. How much do I want to bet that you won't dream this way again?
And what about posting your politicial, philosophical, or personal beliefs on the web? You write a well-thought-out essay about a woman's right to choose and your pro-life potential-employer finds it. You may think that's "good stuff" but your employer sure doesn't. You're making this way too simple. The article brings up a very good point. You are unwise to dismiss it as "someone else's problem" so easily, my friend.
GMD
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It's an example of a more general problem (Score:4, Interesting)
I've been arguing for a long time that completely free and effectively unaccountable speech on-line, particularly when made anonymously, is not necessarily a good thing, and on balance it may do a lot more harm than good. The principled people tend to shout/mod me down, but on this one I think it's the pragmatic view: freedom of speech is not an absolute right, and with that freedom when it does exist must come responsibility for what is spoken. As long as anyone can post anything about anyone on-line without so much as offering any right of reply, never mind (in practice) being subject to the usual legal comebacks in more serious cases, there will be abuses, and the consequences can be very serious, even life-changing. You can argue that the Internet is not a reliable source of information and people shouldn't trust random information for important decisions as much as you like, but in practice it will always cause problems, as we see here.
I've also argued for a long time that archiving of everything on an opt-out basis, as with things like the Wayback Machine and Google Groups, is not necessarily as much in the public interest as the advocates would have us believe. Again, while there is clearly merit in having a record of the general state of the world and useful content that might otherwise be lost, there is also scope for a lot of abuse. Perhaps more seriously, there can be a lot of accidental damage, maybe due to out-of-date information being assumed to be current, maybe because information that was never correct was posted at some stage and later retracted, but the archive didn't pick up the later correction. Of course, it would be best if some information were never on-line in the first place -- quite a lot of it, these days (ask the CIA ;-)) -- and archives that help themselves to content without permission exacerbate this problem, too.
I suspect that in the long run, the abuses will become so great that the fundamental nature of the Internet will have to change. Anonymity will simply not be allowed, with countries not prepared to play along being excluded from the network. Archiving will have to become opt-in. Cross-border regulation will be created to enable people to defend their reputations much more straightforwardly than is the case at present.
It's a shame, but the simple truth is that while the unregulated nature of the Internet has been an advantage in developing it, it has also led to serious problems that, at current rates, will bring about its demise just as fast. I'd rather accept putting my name to my words and standing by my comments than the continued and increasing presence of viruses, spam e-mails, phishing, websites offering incorrect (sometimes dangerously so) information, major crimes like fraud and identity theft being carried out behind the Internet's shield of anonymity, sickos distributing kiddie porn, and all the rest of it. Ultimately, you're never really anonymous on-line anyway, it's just a lot of effort to work out who you. Why continue with the delusion when it does this much damage?
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Re:It's an example of a more general problem (Score:5, Interesting)
Whether it's a "good thing" is completely irrelevant: there simply is no reasonable way of preventing unaccountable speech from happening in a free society. This isn't even a new thing, it's been true since long before the Internet.
I'd rather accept putting my name to my words and standing by my comments than the continued and increasing presence of viruses, [...]
That's simply not the choice we face. The choice we face is the kind of world you are advocating, a fascist, totalitarian world in which ordinary citizens are deprived of the ability to discuss controversial issues freely and openly, but in which viruses, propaganda, manipulation, and crime continue to thrive, and the status quo, a messy mix of anonymous speech and accountability.
The day people like you win the argument will be the end for democracy. It will probably happen sooner or later (as it has in many other kinds of democracies), but I hope I won't be around to have to endure the consequences.
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Re:It's an example of a more general problem (Score:4, Insightful)
But you most certainly can't speak in public without being held accountable, since normally anyone can see who you are.
You miss my point entirely. In general, I am heavily pro-civil-liberties. In this case, however, the "liberty" is illusory, and I think the price is too high to pay for a pretend benefit. There isn't really any anonymity on the Internet; there never has been. It's just a matter of how much effort is required to track you down.
Moreover, I don't know where you get the idea that holding people accountable for their actions is somehow fascist and totalitarian, but apparently you need to go back and study politics from the beginning again to learn what the long words mean. Indeed, holding people accountable for their actions seems to be one of the hallmarks of civilised society, and the foundation of every legal system in the modern world. Why do you think the Internet should be available as a tool for those who would seek to circumvent the normal rule of law?
Society will be much better if we discuss controversial issues freely and openly, rather than in secretive groups behind closed doors. That is what ultimately leads to many of the problems society has faced historically, and continues to face today. And people should support the causes they believe in, loudly and vocally, so their voice actually counts for more than an anonymous mark contributing to a tally in some so-called representative's log book.
All this messing around with pseudo-anonymity doesn't really help: the few people in the world who might benefit in theory, and who are often mentioned by advocates of on-line anonymity around these parts, rarely have the freedom to speak freely that those advocates think they do anyway. Meanwhile, several of the most damaging crimes that exist today are increasing dramatically in frequency, thanks to the shield provided by the Internet and in particular its international scope.
Would you claim that any state that has a police force to enforce the collective will of the people, as expressed through a reasonably representative political system, is totalitarian and fascist? If not, why do you think the Internet should remain essentially outside the law?
On the contrary. Democracy is already dying, courtesy of Bush, Blair, and their ilk. The only way to restore the balance of power to the people of their countries is to conduct genuinely open debate among the people, to have them inform and educate their peers where they can, and to promote an honest an exchange of views. That'll never happen until people who care have the courage to put their name to what they believe in, no matter how many almost-anonymous posts they make on the Internet.
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Re:Simple to avoid. (Score:5, Interesting)
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Maybe it's just the name. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Maybe it's just the name. (Score:4, Funny)
Sure, he works on our Microsoft Windows Security team.
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Who wouldn't? (Score:5, Insightful)
This ain't news (Score:5, Insightful)
The larger problem is that not everyone realizes that the internet is *public*, not private, and that what you post online has the potential to stay around for a very long time.
If you don't want it googled, don't put it up. If your friend puts it up, tell them to take it down.
On the other hand, any employer who would refuse to hire someone based off of humorous content in a blog or on a personal webpage (or even due to radical political/religious views) is probably ignoring a large pool of good employees. A smart employer will realize that even clever, hardworking people look stoned sometimes.
Passive Anonymity (Score:5, Insightful)
Any employers will find that I had an interest in fixing an
I'm a firm believer in passive anonymity. I won't go to great lengths to hide who I really am, and have no problem with people I'm conversing with knowing my real name, but I make sure that any comments of mine end up archived under a pseudonym. Considering HR people are looking for applicants with 15 years of experience in Windows XP, I don't really trust them to do the mental math necessary to establish that the questionable rant of mine from 1995 they've taken issue with, was posted by me while I was still in middle school.
Be Glad Of Your Online Presence (Score:5, Interesting)
On the other hand...
I recently hired two guys based primarily on their online presence.
I was looking for a couple of people to do support. Both of them applied. I googled them. They both had blogs. Their blogs demonstrated that a) they could write well (their jobs involve providing support via email) b) that they had a bit of personality and c) that they were smart people, passionate about Linux (which is our focus).
I hired both these guys without ever meeting them face-to-face. Being able to google them, see what projects they've been involved in, get a feel for how they deal with other people (e.g. in mailing list posts, etc) helped me start getting a handle on them. These guys got their jobs over dozens of other candidates who had great resumes, but were 'invisible' on the web.
--
We're hiring Linux geeks [rimuhosting.com]
Re:Be Glad Of Your Online Presence (Score:5, Interesting)
Having said this, it is a good idea to use aliasses for crap like myspace, political forums and mmorpg's, using your name for these kind of things can only work against you. Just use some common sense.
And no, I don't need a job, but thanks for the offer ;)
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Not likely. (Score:5, Insightful)
Or did you put a link to your profile in your resume?
Here's an idea: If you're wondering why an employer decided not to hire you, you could try asking them instead of Slashdot. I know it's hard to believe, but there might actually be more qualified people applying for the same jobs. It sucks getting passed over, and occasionally there could be illegitimate reasons, but for the most part you win some and you lose some. In the long run, the most productive course of action is probably to just keep looking, and tell your friend to take down the picture if you're paran^h^h^h^h^hconcerned.
Lucky Me (Score:4, Insightful)
Unless you have a very unique name or you're dumb enough to put your full name in your public myspace profile, you probably don't have a lot to worry about.
Added credibility (Score:5, Funny)
1000+ articles posted in my area of expertise.
Google itself links me to some seriously fun stuff. First link just happens to point to my Amazon profile. I consider that as VERY lucky as that's a page I can modify as I see fit.
Here is you will see when you search for "Knyshov" on Google:
Amazon.com: Profile For Leonid Knyshov: ReviewsLeonid Knyshov "World-class computer expert" (Fremont, CA USA) (REAL NAME)
www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ A3P7EVPCSMPGI6?_encoding=UTF8 - 66k - Cached - Similar pages
Amazon.com: Profile for Leonid KnyshovLeonid S. Knyshov is a computer genius who is typically employed as a Sr. Network Systems Security
www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3P7EVPCSMPGI6 - 43k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.amazon.com ]
A few links below that, however, I am linked to insecure.org which shows my HP-UX exploit from 1997. That can be good or bad. Good - shows that I knew how to find original exploits 9 years ago. Bad - I don't actively advertise that. Overall, I consider that as a good link.
Then there is a link that connects me to the SF Raves community. That again can be good or bad. Good - I can modify that page as I see fit and it shows that I am not a bookworm. Bad - it links me with nightlife of San Francisco, which may provoke questions about possible recreational drug usage, which I do not do.
Overall, that's basically the key. If the information you post is good, it definitely enhances credibility. I tell my clients to look for me on the Internet. For some reason, my 1994-2000 newsgroups history is not visible, which is not necessarily a bad thing
NET = Not Entirely True (Score:5, Insightful)
net presence that would make any employer jump to hire you.
If course it's all fiction, but with the proper links and all
you could make it pretty believable.
Enterprising individuals could do this for you for a fee.
So for the employers who think they are being so crafty,
there's a way for the unscrupulous job seeker to keep one step ahead.
My girlfriend played Wow.... (Score:5, Interesting)
My girlfriend played Wow and got a little too cozy with another player. With a little bit of Real World knowledge about him I was able to find out quite a bit about him and his immediate family.
Even dug up a picture that might be of him, she wasn't pleased when I said that as she had never been sent a picture. Seems they weren't that cozy after all.
I'll leave it up to the reader to determine what one can do with such information.
In this case i dumped her, and sent him a message in Wow telling him he should feel free to meet up with her. I've got no interest in her now anyway.
It was rather revealing to toss out information which she knew, but had no idea how I could have found out about. She probably thinks I trolled through all her email, but she seemed really curious as I suspect most of the information passed between them was via Ventrilo (voice chat).
Re:My girlfriend played Wow.... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Creeeeeeeeeppyyyyyyy.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Next, "you dumped HER" (I'm really hoping for her sake that this is a lie and she had the sense to dump you), you messaged the other person (who you give no indication of knowing personally) to say that he can have her (leaving the two of the them with a good story about her crazy ex to bond over), and then you post something showing how much you glory in the private information you collected about her behind your back by spying on their conversations.
I honestly pity any girl that you next set your sights on. Get help. Get serious psychiatric help before you hurt somebody or leave yourself doomed for a serious of failed relationship because you have a serious combination of trust issues, possessiveness, and vindictiveness combined with a lack of empathy to see how your actions would affect another person.
(Posting AC because the last thing I want is some crazy, vindictive stalker after me.)
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GOOGLE YOURSELF (Score:5, Insightful)
He said "go to myspace, google. yahoo, MSN, hotjobs, anything that a potential employer may use, and make sure that anything that shows up is accurate"
If someone online is posting false info on you, then call the service and demand its removal, hire a lawyer if necessary.
I wouldn't have hired her (Score:4, Informative)
Comments from her myspace [myspace.com]:
obviously (FTA): "hi, i'm colleen kluttz and i just smoked the. best. weed. everrrrrrr..."
"Best host ever! I like the part when you shake your boobies."
"pot brownies, colleen! POT BROWNIES!!!"
"if you lived here, i would have to quit my job and become a full time hang over nurse."
"i'd like to report that i just opened my purse at work and found a can of PBR inside. livin' large!!!" - PBR being Paps Blue Ribbon beer by the way
"chris's eyes = patriotic. stoned white and blue. come visit."
And the profile picture she picked herself that has her giving the finger to a camera doesn't help either.
If the incident in question (someone posted a pic of her looking high) was isolated, an employer might overlook it. But these comments suggest a heavy drinker/pot smoker. I personally don't care if someone drinks/smokes weed while not on the job, but these things in conjunction with the attitude that is expressed on her myspace is something more.
Interesting past, future problems... (Score:5, Insightful)
Without going into details, (but I know the slashdot crowd can find it, just with a whois on my domains) I was once accused of being a VAMPIRE in a court of law.
Cute, stupid, and it didn't really work for the defendant in the case.
The media had a blast with it. I was on CNN's legal section... I made "News of the odd" The Fax News, several papers, and Fark.
The problems began when a local reporter found my personal website, and went hunting. She found a list of "Pagan buttons and bumpersticker" joke that I thought were humorous and posted them out of context in the article.
Imagine my (very religious) grandmother looking at the paper and finding out that
1) I was pagan (admittedly, my grandfather who was a preacher knew, but asked that I never tell her)
2) I was a Vampire (at least according to some people)
and 3) That I was apparently a fan of throwing Christians to lions! (not true)
Problem is, it never goes away. Someone will ask about it from time to time, it comes up in interviews, and just in places I never expect it.
It is somewhat amusing for me... but can you imagine what would happen if someone were to link your name to something really nasty?
I wrote an article on the need for a "media blackout" type of period in regards to recent child porn arrests, where alledged child porn was found on someones machine by a 3rd party.
Inevitably the media learns of the situation (happened with a Best Buy tech who was snooping someones machine in Tennessee)and reports a name and the fact of the arrest.
Whether the individual is guilty or innocent no longer matters at that point. His (or her) name is indelibly linked to "(insert name) arrested on child porn allegations".
Your life would be OVER.
Now I think people who deal with that stuff are sick and need help and I am not defending them in any way! But I do think we are not far from a period where people are going to start suing to have their name scrubbed from certain places on the net. Good luck to them, because getting something off the net is like getting pee out of a pool.
Or was it "Un-ringing a bell"?
Tattoos and MySpace: Regrets in the making (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm thankful that the trends of my youth involved only bad haircuts and cheesy clothing.
Happened to me, definitely! (Score:5, Interesting)
What happened was, I used to run a very popular computer bulletin board system. Almost 10 years ago, it was seized by the FBI under suspicion of copyright infringements occuring on it. After all of my equipment was held hostage for *2 years*, they decided to drop the whole case and give me everything back. A rather sheepish-faced federal agent actually came by my house after work with his station wagon filled up with all of my CDs, computers, monitors, etc. etc. and dropped it all over in my living room - apologizing for the whole incident (but still making me sign some type of waiver promising to absolve them of all responsibility, so I couldn't sue later). I thought this story was worthy of mention on my web site, since to this day, people occasionally ask me what ever happened to the BBS, etc. etc.
Well, the college apparently googled my name, found my web site, and read everything on it. (My BBS story wasn't exactly "top level" material on my site, so they had to click through at least 2 levels of menus and read 4 pages about it before they hit that part.) They were concerned about the incident, despite no charges ever being filed - and denied me employment based on it! (Only 2 days after the phone call telling me they were "reconsidering" hiring me, I got the standard rejection form letter in the mail, signed by the very guy I had just spoken to on the phone!)
Extremely irritating - because while, sure, I could just censor this info - I think it's a story worth telling. And furthermore, I'm not so sure I want to work for an employer who is that paranoid over something that speaks more about government's inefficiency and blundering than my own character.
But in the end, I was hired as I.T. Supervisor of a business paying considerably more than this community college anyway, so maybe everything happens for a reason after all.
This is so utterly not on time! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Use an alias. Do not post your last name on... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Use an alias. Do not post your last name on... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Use an alias. Do not post your last name on... (Score:5, Insightful)
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I don't think so. (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Even if you don't link to your real name. (Score:4, Informative)
However, under some circustainces I can understand the use of a credit record. For example if you are going to be handling sensative information or you are going to be doing finanaces, then it makes sense check the credit record. However, if there is no criminal record or even the hint of fraud exclusion because someone has a bad credit record would not be fair -- just because someone fell on hard times (there is no way telling why their credit record may be bad) means they won't be a good employee.
Frankly, I don't care if a potential employer knows information about me -- I don't have anything to hide. If they don't like my political views, my credit history, medical history, etc., then oh well. It probably isn't exactly the job for me in the first place. If they want the information, then they can ask me, and I'll provide it, freely.
(To any future employer, feel free to ask me the information you want and I'll give it to you straight up.)
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Re:Even if you don't link to your real name. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Maybe he *was* smoking something (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Nothing 'bout the net, dude... (Score:5, Funny)
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Check out her site! (Score:5, Insightful)
And good Lord! Have you been to her MySpace site [myspace.com]? Take a look at some of those pictures of he flipping the camera off or "partying hardy". He site probably only "sealed the deal" on a decision already made 5 minute into the interview.
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Re:Nothing 'bout the net, dude... (Score:4, Funny)
Somebody has to edit the NAMBLA newsletter.
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Re:Maybe he *was* smoking something (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, suppose you've been good about keeping your name off the web, but there's another person with the same name who has a bad reputation. How's the employer going to know that it's not really you, if there's not enough details to disprove it?
So background checks are one thing; using Google is completely different in terms of reliability.
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Re:Actually... (Score:4, Funny)
I think this by itself might suggest that they were in fact a dope smoker, and it had severely impacted their ability to judge rationally.
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Re:Everyone. (Score:4, Interesting)
This is a very valid point that I haven't heard anyone else mention. Most people tend to use the same (or at least similar) alias wherever they go on the internet. Often times a little digging can provide correlation between a name and online alias. It is sometimes quite amusing what people like to say when they think they are being anonymous.
For example, Googling for my real name will reveal some rather off-color comments about Linux (or Linsux as i called it) as well as many unprofessional rants and raves on mailing lists and usenet. Most of this was from 1998-1999. After that my real name dropped off of the net. Once I realized that these comments could come back to haunt me, I quickly moved all posts under my current alias. Fortunately doing a Google search on my alias returns more hits for a british comic book character than anything I've written with this name. If any employer is willing to go through hundreds of pages of results they can find things that i've said. However, i NEVER put any reference to my alias on any resume, ever.
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Re:So what? They will anyway. (Score:4, Informative)
Court records are another matter. If your psychiatrist made a report to the court concerning your progress in a shoplifting matter, that might be part of public record if the judge didn't have it sealed. But in that case, your criminal record is going to be a much bigger deal than the psychiatrist report.
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Re:Feel free to link to an article... (Score:4, Insightful)
ummmmmmmmm... if I was a employer I would look at myspace, prolly the best way to get to know someone really.
People control their own myspace page, so if you have pictures of yourself looking high on marijuana on your myspace page then it's your own fault for leaving it up there.
You can delete any comments people make about you on your own page, so if i saw someone's page and it had comments about them getting high I would assume they want the entire world to know they're a pothead.
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