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A National Archive Moves to ODF

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Mon Apr 03, 2006 04:22 PM
from the real-time-case-studies dept.
Software
Andy Updegrove writes "The National Archives of Australia (NAA) has announced that it will move its digital archives program to OpenOffice 2.0, an open source implementation of ODF. Unlike Massachusetts or the City of Bristol (which announced it would convert to save on total cost of ownership), the NAA will deal almost exclusively with documents created elsewhere in multiple formats. As a result, it provides a "worst possible case" for testing the practicality of using ODF in a still largely non-ODF world. If successful, the NAA example would therefore demonstrate that the use of ODF is reasonable and feasible in more normal situations, where the percentage of documentation that is created and used internally is much larger."
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  • I'm wondering if this will be the start of the use of Open Source in more business applications. Most companies use M$ Office, since it is mainstream, even with it's large cost. Maybe the Government's example will be the beginning of the revolution.
    • I'm wondering how long before the FUD starts vomiting forth from Redmond, and how much longer after that that we start to see mysterious political pressure to try to snuff these plans. Napoleon Gates and Stinky Ballmer will poison the well in every way they can to make sure their monopoly isn't harmed by a competing standard.
    • Re your sig: super as a prefix doesn't mean "very", it means something along the lines of "above" or "beyond", as in "superscript".

      For a more on-topic note, I'm not sure why an office format would be the best thing to use for archives of final documents; why not use something like pdf? Readers are widely available, it will always produce the same results when printed, and it's been around for a while. Plus it's very straightforward to produce a pdf from absolutely any document that can be printed on at le
      • I'm not sure why an office format would be the best thing to use for archives of final documents;

        ODF is an electronic document format, not an "office" format, whatever that means. Its advantage in this context is that any document in ODF can be dissasembled ito its component parts easily. Text, images and formatting can all be extracted and used separately if needed. PDFs are hard to convert back to the raw data.

        • What I mean by an "office" format is probably more correctly termed an "intermediate" format: one that's designed to be edited again. Intermediate formats usually aren't guaranteed to look and print exactly the same on all systems. For example, one system might have a different version of fonts installed that would be slightly different in size and mess up the formatting. Or a different program (in ODF's case, say, koffice vs. openoffice) might render a table differently. If the file was well-constructe
      • A couple of years ago I went on a tour of the West Australian archives & they said that computer generated documents were their bane.
        They had 150 year old documents going back to wherever but they had trouble reading 25 year old floppy disks in weird formats and converting them to the raw text-only format they used back then.
        If they standardize on an XML based format like the ODF ones and convert all of their old stuff to this it will make archiving the current documents much easier. It may even in a
  • As a result, it provides a "worst possible case" for testing the practicality of using ODF in a still largely non-ODF world.

    Wouldn't this sort of test be a more or less good test case for switching to ODF and dealing with non-ODF outside documents? Maybe I just misunderstood the comment.
    • That's the point. The real world plethora of formats is the worst case. If ODF can handle the worst case, it would be a testament to the robustness of the format. The worst case test for interchangeable file formats would demonstrate that ODF is viable.

    • Re:Worst Possible Case? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by MrPower (687654) on Monday April 03 2006, @05:08PM (#15053782)

      What I think they meant to convey is that this will be a worse case scenario they can use for testing the practicality of using ODF in a non-ODF world.

      But I don't actually think so...

      Whereas I think this will be great for ODF, as the NAA will have to produce heaps conversion software to convert many formats to ODF but because they are an archiving operation, they won't ever have to convert back. Instead, I imagine that the common document format for outgoing files from of the archive will most likely be PDF...

      This scenario won't test the ability for ODF in collaborative work among entities, something that I would see as the worst case scenario needed to test the practicality of using this format.

      Having said all of that - to hell with everyone else - I have been using non Microsoft formats (first Star Office formats and now ODF) for five years now and rarely come across a problem. Then again, I am a simple user so I wouldn't expect too much grief. From my experience advising other people I can see that the true hurdle is not the file format, rather the application. Word and Excel are automated from so much business and scientific software that people just expect the results of their query or analysis to be dumped directly into their spreadsheet or word processor. So until Quicken or MYOB support something other that MS software, or until alternative software is produced that does, business will largely use MS.

      On the other hand I strongly recommend to people to use OOo at home and with the ever increaseing compatability that OOo has with MS formats, this is not a bad option.

  • Bristol, UK? If so, I missed that.

  • Novell has great success with this (Score:5, Informative)

    by Sir_Jordan (819187) on Monday April 03 2006, @04:38PM (#15053578)
    Years ago when Novell switched over to Linux operating systems, one of their largest fears was the trouble integrating their documents in a Microsoft stardard based world. It turns out that Open Office was more than adequate concerning reading/writing various document standards.
  • OOo is slow because it's still largely impelemented using a Java VM-based architecture with bytecode and all that entails. I really think these guys should reconsider. MS is moving toward an XML-based file format which shouls be open enough for anyone. And MS Office is a client app written completely in optimized Windows assembler code. That should help with performance hemi-dramatically.
    • You must be kidding OpenOffice.org is almost all C++ code, it's slow to start because it calls to many files on startup, it has certain parts of it which use java like the Base and some templates.

    • Re:OOo shows how bad Java can be (Score:5, Informative)

      by LWATCDR (28044) on Monday April 03 2006, @05:00PM (#15053726) Homepage Journal
      "OOo is slow because it's still largely impelemented using a Java VM-based architecture with bytecode and all that entails."
      No it isn't. I just ran OpenOffice writer V2.0 and checked my task list. No java was running at all!
      OOo uses java for some functions but it in not "largely impelemented using a Java VM-based" anything
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenOffice.org#Java_c ontroversy [wikipedia.org] is a list OpenOffices use of Java.
      OpenOffice is mostly a C++ or C program.
      I have not run a profiler on OOo so I can not tell you 100% what makes OO slower than Office but I would guess that part of it is the XML format that OO uses.
      Just from my own experence I have found that you can write a fast XML parser and you can write a "safe" XML parser. But a fast safe XMP parser is very hard.

      • Yep. Speed is the main advantage of binary formats (since we now compress the textual ones). But I'd like to add that I'm using OOo for a few mounths now without ever needing to enable the java functionality (you can disable java at the configuration window). Almost all of it is written in other languages.

      • The slowness of the XML parser doesn't matter much if you don't save and reload the document with every modification.

        Actually, OOo is so slow because they don't use a widget set. The display is hand-drawn by a bunch of monks in Germany, because the project started before Qt or Gtk.
        • Well Qt wasn't an option because of the closed nature of Qt for Windows. The next version of Qt should solve that issue. GTK for Windows wasn't mature until very recently. What gets me is when none programmers start spouting off about how java is slow, or how this or that feature of bug would be so easy so the programmer is an idiot.
          I have never noticed OO.org was slow except when saving or loading a file.
          I have worked with XML parsers and find them really slow when dealing with a file with a few hundred th
      • Turning off java does speed up Openoffice considerably.

        So does increasing the memory settings.

        However it still takes about 3 or 4 seconds to start up on my desktop. As far as I remember from when I still used Windows this is not all that different from MS Office on XP on similar hardware. Does any one else who has done the same tweaks differ?

        However Abiword or Lyx starts instantly. I mostly use Lyx (which I find more productive) and Gnumeric (faster, with some nice features) rather than OO.
        • Correction. "OOo is slow" AND "it's still largely impelemented using" C and "C++ with all that entails."

          There is certainly no reason to believe it is slow BECAUSE C++ was used. One can write a slow app in any language. It is just a bit easier to do in an interpreted language like Java than in a compiled language like C++.

          P.S. Don't tell me that Java compiles to bytecode. That just means that Java compiles to an interpreted language instead of a native language.

    • I don't think so. My understanding is that it uses java to enable macros.

      If you turn off java, the entire program is tons faster and all you lose are macros.

    • Like the others have said turn off the java stuff if you don't need it.

      My question for OpenOffice guys, why have this turned on by default?

      Those who would need it can turn it on but I always thought OpenOffice was a dog because of this.

      Maybe a pop-up window or something...
    • Ah. That'd be the...er..."Open Standard" XML format? The one MS let's you write but won't tell you how to read it?

      Good idea! Sounds much more open than this silly ODF format....

      Apologies for sarcasm, but even if you're not into the political and social reasons for Open Standards, a closed, pervasive document format is A Bad Thing(TM). And when you get past the poor PR attempts, Office XML is still a closed, soon to be pervasive format. Hence it's A Bad Thing(TM).

  • Small experience (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anne Honime (828246) on Monday April 03 2006, @05:20PM (#15053849) Homepage
    Back in the Uni, I was in charge of merging some 20+ articles from various authors into a single document. The target was to give the publisher a uniform document which he would then transform into a book.

    All documents were made with a flavour of Word or another, from word for MacOS 6.0 to the latest (at the time) word XP for windows. As you'd have already guessed, the only word processor able to make sense of all the documents at once was Openoffice.org. Of course, I faced issues (bulleting appearing "funny", for instance), but as I was applying a style I created, that was not a problem as long as the text was there.

    No single version of word in my possession was able to open all the documents, some documents even crashing word XP with thunder and lighting.

    • I switched to star office 5, which emachines had bundled with my computer when my copy of office 95 and publisher 97 refused to open the new word 2000/XP files and rather than warez it i gave star office a shot, this was back before OOo even existed so i was very happy with it back then and have used SO / OOo ever since

  • Questions here (Score:5, Informative)

    by countach (534280) on Monday April 03 2006, @05:49PM (#15054016)
    I wrote the original version of the National Archives software that does the conversion. The current version of the software is available here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/xena [sourceforge.net]

    If anybody wants to ask any questions here I'll try and answer.

  • OOo2.0 is just one facet (Score:5, Informative)

    by digipres (877201) on Monday April 03 2006, @08:48PM (#15054925)

    Our use of the OpenDocument format will be quite important, but it's only one facet of what we do. The Xena software has been developed with a plugin architecture that lets us use various external helpers to 'normalise' or convert to open formats any data objects in our care. For each data object, we use Xena to create a base64 encoded copy so that we can embed some metadata with it, and separately for a conversion to an open format. Much of the data ends up as XML, while images for example are png or jpg. We're currently investigating open audio formats. Xena is also used to 'present' data objects that it normalises.

    Until now, Xena has made use of OOo 1.1.x for the normalising of office documents into flat XML. Other development priorities have kept the move to OOo2 in the background. I must stress that we have not yet released Xena with OOo2 support, there is more testing to be done and we feel that the release must be accompanied by good user and developer documentation.

    The 'current' binary of Xena available at sourceforge is waaaaay out of date and will shortly be replaced by a much sleeker and more intuitive version. For the curious, anonymous cvs is pretty up to date. If you have a java 1.5 sdk and apache ant, check out a pile of modules and go nuts. Anyone who wishes to become involved in the development effort is more than welcome.

    For anyone else, keep an eye on the http//xena.sourceforge.net/ [slashdot.org] for the upcoming binary release.

    • Doesn't exist? (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Which of these applications [wikipedia.org], exactly, don't exist?

    • Re:OpenOffice.org 2.0? (Score:5, Informative)

      by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) on Monday April 03 2006, @04:46PM (#15053634)

      Note: Said software doesn't exist.

      Get with the times. That hasn't been true for a while. The current list includes: Abiword 2.4, eZ publish, IBM Workplace Documents 2.6+, KWord 1.4+, NeoOffice 1.2 Writer, OpenOffice.org Writer, Scribus 1.2.2+ , StarOffice 8 Writer, TEA text editor , TextMaker 2005, Visioo Writer 0.6, and Writely for the word processor portion of the format, with similar lists for the other components. There are a lot more that have announced support on the way.

      • One should not copy and paste without citing the source. List of applications supporting OpenDocument [wikipedia.org] seems to be where you got that form.
      • Don't forget ajaxWrite [ajaxwrite.com]!
        • run on Microsoft Windows operating systems (so that they don't require re-buying hardware)

          I don't get it - since when did you have to re-buy hardware to slap a new OS on it?

        • Re:OpenOffice.org 2.0? (Score:5, Informative)

          by Noksagt (69097) on Monday April 03 2006, @06:13PM (#15054158) Homepage
          which apps on the list 1. run on Microsoft Windows operating systems (so that they don't require re-buying hardware)
          Those which run under Linux probably wouldn't require new hardware either. That being said, here are the windows apps (which are most of them):
          ODT
          • Abiword
          • EZ publish
          • IBM Workplace
          • Scribus
          • TextMaker
          Writely is web-native, so you could use that too.Kword might work in cygwin (I really don't know--I know you can run some KDE apps).
          ODS
          • Gnumeric
          • IBM Workplace
          Same note on KSpread.
          ODP
          Same note on KPresenter as on KWord
          ODG
          • Scribus
          2. are promoted in print or on television across North America or across Europe?
          What does this have to do with anything? I have seen relatively few MS Office, OO.o, or Corel WordPerfect ads either. People giving away software usually don't spend money to ensure you'll take it from them.

          • Those which run under Linux probably wouldn't require new hardware either.

            Find me a Linux driver for my paid-for yet unsupported [sane-project.org] Microtek Scanmaker 4850 flatbed scanner, which was purchased long before I thought of switching this computer to Linux, and I'll believe you. Unless you are working with a computer that was built from the ground up for Linux, including buying a printed copy of a distribution's hardware compatibility list to carry with you to the computer store, I am 90 percent sure that you w

              • Or, better, bring a Linux LiveCD & actyually try it.

                Oh, that sounds like fun. I'm going to take a Knoppix DVD with me the next time I go to Best Buy. Just imagine how the salespeople will freak out when they think I've reinstalled the OS on one of their display machines -- and then I can watch their heads explode as they try to get their minds around the idea of a LiveCD.

        • Thanks, Mnemonic.

          I have just sent a letter to Episoft's Chief Software Architect and offered him venture capital. I tell ya, this is all going to make us richer then the Sultan of Bahrain.

    • Re:OpenOffice.org 2.0? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Distinguished Hero (618385) on Monday April 03 2006, @04:46PM (#15053636) Homepage
      Wikipedia begs to differ [wikipedia.org].

      Some highlights according to wikipedia:

      .odt: AbiWord, KWord, Writely
      .ods: KSpread, Gnumeric (incomplete)
      .odp: KPresenter

      Plus StarOffice (maybe that's cheating), and IBM Workplace Documents (never used it)

    • KOffice?

      Not that that makes it a myriad, but there are also a few lesser-known programs that do, and I would guess that many others will implement support for it soon. AbiWord didn't last time I checked, but they did support SXW (StarOffice/OpenOffice.org Writer 1.x format), so it wouldn't surprise me to see them implement ODT. Actually ... oops ... I lied, looks like it does now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_applications_ supporting_OpenDocument [wikipedia.org]

      Anyway, the OpenDocument Alliance also has a lot of

    • Taken (Score:2, Informative)

      by tepples (727027)

      OK why is the little o included in the name? Its just Open Office. OOo is a website that Has OO. I don't get it.

      If this Wikipedia article [wikipedia.org] is to be believed, then the name of the web site, project, and product is "OpenOffice.org" because "OpenOffice" was taken.

    • I almost thought you were joking about the templates, because what you described is pretty exactly what some people have done. It's called OOextras.

      I don't think they match up to the beauty of (some) MS or Corel templates , but StarOffice has some templates you could steal from I bet. Would those be freely distributable under their license?

      Anyway, http://ooextras.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]

      that's the
    • If I were trying to archive something, I'd store it in many formats.

      First, open it in the original app. Use "Save As" to export the file in every possible way. (txt, rtf, ps, pdf, html...)

      Second, open the original in OpenOffice 2. Do as above, for every format that OpenOffice can create.

      Third, open the original in KWrite...

      When done, save the data on many different types of media. Be sure to use long-term-stable storage formats like GNU tar with GNU zip. Be sure to choose media from different manufa

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