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AllofMp3.com Breaks Silence
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Tue Jun 06, 2006 08:32 PM
from the other-side-of-the-coin dept.
from the other-side-of-the-coin dept.
An anonymous reader writes "The controversial Russian music site AllofMp3.com has fired back a return salvo on legality, royalties, and the WTO." From the article: "The entertainment industry however claims the service is flat out illegal. According to the IFPI (International Federation of the Phonographic Industry), AllofMp3.com fails to pay artist royalties - contrary to AllofMp3.com's assertions."
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News: AllofMP3.com May Hinder Russia Joining WTO 419 comments
gitana writes "The New York Times is reporting that American trade negotiators may demand the shutdown of AllofMP3.com as a condition of Russia joining the World Trade Organization." From the article: "Music industry officials say AllofMP3, which first came to their attention in 2004, is a large-scale commercial piracy site, and they dismiss its claims of legality. "It is totally unprecedented to have a pirate site operating so openly for so long," said Neil Turkewitz, executive vice president of the Recording Industry Association of America, who is based in Washington ... AllofMP3.com says on the site that it can legally sell to any user based in Russia and warns foreign users to verify the legality within their countries for themselves. The site features a wide selection of Russian music, but is written in English with prices listed in United States dollars."
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Politics: UK Recording Industry Wants Allofmp3 An Issue at G8 248 comments
alveraan writes "According to a the BBC, 'the UK recording industry is urging the foreign secretary to raise the issue of Russian bargain music download website allofmp3.com at the G8 summit'. British Phonographic Industry (BPI) chairman Peter Jamieson wants Margaret Beckett to 'urge the Russian government to take action against the operators of the site by insisting that it is removed from the internet'. Allofmp3 has insisted in the past that it is operating in compliance with Russian copyright laws."
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The British BPI say its illegal (Score:5, Informative)
and you will be breaking the law by downloading from there
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5051826.
Re:The British BPI say its illegal (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:The British BPI say its illegal (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:The British BPI say its illegal (Score:5, Informative)
Rubbish. You've been able to "buy" copyrighted material for as long as the idea existed. I have thousands of items of "copyrighted material" that I most certainly have paid for and own. Note: I own the ITEM; not the copyright. If you want to publish copyrighted material, you need to make arrangements with the copyright owner. Not if you want to read, view or listen to it yourself; or even make exerpts from it in certain cases.
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law-abiding? Not always! (Score:5, Insightful)
This remembers me about the book 'Bush: president of good and evil', in which the moral and ethical sense of Bush is analysed, and found it is stuck at the level of a 13-year old. (which, in fact, is not as uncommon as one would believe, for many adults are). The sociological and psychological roots of this behaviour would lead me too far, but I'll simplify by saying that there are several levels of 'ethical priciples' which are quite universal (thus, apparant through all times and cultures).
The ethic behaviour of a teenager between 10-15 years is often very stringent; the law is the law, and rules are rules. He does not yet possess the ability to understand thatrules for the sake of rules are useless, and that exeptions can and should be made on personal evaluation of the rules, not merely because society has put them there. To the surprise of the reseachers, many adults continue to live in that mindset, and never evolve to a more nuanced ethical view in which to look at the world. Your argument above hints at the same kind of mentality.
Thus, let me be clear: no, it's not because something is a law, that we should obey it. And while 'not liking it' is on itself not sufficent case to break a law, it DOES give a first indication and a ground to look closer at that law, and see if it is in harmony with itself (are there internal contradictions?), with other laws (which supercedes which?) and your own basic values (is it acceptable within my own ethical value-system?).
If you do not do that, and merely accept you have to follow a law, because the law is there, then one would sooner or later be confronted with unethical behaviour (even from oneself), even though one is following the law. If a law is passed that would put all niggers apart from white people, would you agree to it? If you're argument is that the law is the law, and you should obey it, then the answer would be yes. If you take the principles I just mentionned, then the answer could well be; no - EVEN if the law says something else. And mind you, a democracy is not immune to such unjust laws; it's just a matter of 'the dictatorship of the majority'.
In my own country, for instance - a most democratic one, more so then the rather doubtful two-party system - there has been talk lately about creating a law which not only criminalyzes immigrants, but also ALL people who help them (for instance, by taking them in their homes, giving them food, etc.). Without wanting to invoke the nazi's, that's rather a disturbing trend. If people offer that help freely, out of empathy, are they being wrong? According to the law (if it gets passed), they are, but I say: bullocks to that law. One should not follow unjust laws, whether they are created by due democratic processes or not.
One could even say that laws, which are generally just, still have to be measured by a persons own value. At least, that's what I do. For instance, I can agree, that stealing is, in general, a 'wrong' thing. When some rich western bloke would steal a television, I would agree with the law: punish him. And yet, if a kid stole food because he was starving, I would not think the same, and would not cooperate with 'the law'. Certainly, these cases are not always easy to spot and to know what is the best thing to do, but it does not absolve you from doing it, and making that personal evaluation.
Following laws just because they have been made is the ultimate stupidity.
Parent
Re:The British BPI say its illegal (Score:5, Insightful)
They don't claim to have rights in the UK. They don't have a presence in the UK. The credit cards are run through Holland. Are they obliged to check your location before completing a sale? It's the customer's obligation to ensure what he buys or imports (if this can be counted as an import, which is not clear) is legal where he lives. allofmp3 is acting unlawfully...
If they're acting unlawfully, how is it that Amazon and hundreds of other online dealers who cheerfully sell across international borders, regardless of market segmentation, are not? Corporations are all in favour of globalisation when it cuts costs for them, but demonise it when it cuts their profits.
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The RIAA's response (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The RIAA's response (Score:4, Informative)
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Time to Change Tactics (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Time to Change Tactics (Score:5, Funny)
That's selfish. Make the copy of the $20 bill available as a torrent, and send the RIAA a link to it.
Parent
Re:Time to Change Tactics (Score:4, Interesting)
Because when I produce a creative work, my employer gets the rights to it, and I may or may not have a right to license it for my own use. So I want my paycheck, and the employer might get some of it if I decide to invest in them.
But when I buy music online, I get a copy of the music, and the only right I have is to listen to it on that device and make a backup copy. Even if I buy on a CD, I only get those rights. So why shouldn't I send them a copy of my money that they can look at and feel rich, but not give to anyonle else?
Quid pro quo.
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Re:Time to Change Tactics (Score:4, Insightful)
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Pay attention record labels (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Pay attention record labels (Score:5, Funny)
Probably when they stop smelling ass due to the location of their heads.
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When will the *AAs learn... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:When will the *AAs learn... (Score:5, Insightful)
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AllofMp3.com fails to pay artist royalties... (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah,,,, (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, they're worried about how much money the artists make. Right. That's their casus belli right there.
Re:Yeah,,,, (Score:5, Informative)
Of course not. The RIAA doesn't care a hill of beans about whether the individual artists are ever paid for their work. They just want to make sure that the major record companies get paid.
Parent
No permission, fine, but is it legal in Russia? (Score:5, Insightful)
Allofmp3.com is not a legal service either in Russia or anywhere else.
then:
The site claims to have a licence from ROMS, a Russian organisation that claims to be a collecting society. Yet ROMS has no rights from the record companies whatsoever to licence these pieces of music. ROMS and allofmp3.com are well aware that record companies have not granted authorisation for this service.
So is it legal under Russian law at the moment, or isn't it? If it's legal, then it's the Russian gov't at fault, not the site at all. If AllofMp3 is legal now, and they changes their business practice by the time the law changes, then it seems like they're being unfairly characterized as criminals.
Re:No permission, fine, but is it legal in Russia? (Score:5, Insightful)
Considering that the Russian police have investigated them before and not filed any charges, it seems to imply that the Russian authorities feel that it's legal. Now, whether it's legal for people outside Russia to purchase music from there is something I haven't seen a lot of discussion about either way, but AllofMP3.com's business certainly appears to be legal to the extent that Russian law covers.
Parent
The most amazing thing about this (Score:4, Insightful)
US trade office is willing to cut off trading relation with Russia over some lousy MP3s? So lets look at this again. What's more profitable and logical? Russia in WTO and suck down RIAA and dumbdown copyright for tit sucking MP3s? or Kick Russia out of WTO and threathen with sanction?
All that in the name of MP3s??? Are we that fucking insane to the point of mental retardation? Oh wait, we are talking about RIAA and politicians.
I think they've got the right idea (Score:5, Insightful)
This is probably legal (Score:4, Interesting)
The music industry is bothered by international sales. If Russians sold music to each other, then there'd be no problem. The objection to the business model comes when U.S. buyers make overseas purchases for pennies on the dollar. The site allows foreign citizens to overcome their regional price hike. A good example of this is U.K. movies and music... often much more expensive than U.S. versions of the exact same content. This is the only valid reason why DVD movies and video games continue to be region locked.
Keep in mind, this is the same industry that sues old women who've never owned computers for downloading songs over the Internet. They can be wrong, are often wrong, and should be looked upon with the most analytical and skeptical mind. Considering the amount of money involved, they have a vested interest in coming out on top.
As an AllOfMp3 customer (Score:5, Insightful)
You buy more music if its cheap.
A year ago, I hadn't spent a dime on music for over 5 years. I spend about $50/month now. Why? Incentive. More music for your money. The same amount of music would end up at (roughly calculated,) $520 to buy the actual CDs.
They see it as they are LOSING $520/month in sales on me alone, when they don't realize that it is BECAUSE OF the low prices that I'm spending anything AT ALL - because I couldn't afford it otherwise.
It's a "something is better than nothing" mentality that they should be focusing on, and not the "make as much as humanly possible" kind of thing.
Weird (Score:5, Funny)
Re:This is scary. (Score:4, Insightful)
Ease up on the hyperbole.
Parent
Re:This is scary. (Score:5, Insightful)
There are many kinds of war, including political and economical wars.
Not all wars are military ones.
If you consider those other kinds of war, the possibility doesn't sound so far fetched anymore, does it ?
Parent
Re:This is scary. (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:This is scary. (Score:5, Insightful)
I can almost imagine that there are fat purple elephants flying around in the sky, but it doesn't mean that it's true.
Ease up on the hyperbole.
Yeah, 'cause the United States has never gone to war to protect its business interests.
Parent
Re:This is scary. (Score:5, Funny)
Somewhere, this thought is giving an **AA exec a hard-on that even Viagra couldn't achieve...
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You are almost correct (Score:5, Insightful)
The global music market is only worth $32 billion [ifpi.org]. That's chicken feed really. Even assuming that US companies were making 100% of that revenue (they aren't) and that AllOfMP3.com could eliminate 100% of that revenue, it *still* isn't worth playing this kind of hardball. I'll bet EU restrictions on GM food cost US companies more money than that (please note, I am not advocating hard ball tactics over EU GM food restrictions).
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Re:It's Hardly Scary (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:It's Hardly Scary (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:It's Hardly Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
If you dom't realize that the United States went to war to protect its economic interests several times in the last century and has already done so once in the young current century you are fooling yourself.
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Re:It's Hardly Scary (for an Imperialist) (Score:5, Interesting)
- Hawaii
- Mexico
- Nicaragua
- Dominican Republic
- Iraq
- Spain for Cuba, Puerto Rico, Phillipines
- Cuba
- Native Americans (so many times it's too hard to itemize)
These all were commercial motivated to some degree or another.Russia is way too big and has too many things that go boom to risk a war with and the copyright thing is probably too minor, but if this were a smaller nation with few friends who knows. Of course it would be over terrorism or for "liberation".
The major record labels are representations of capitalism at it's worse. Their demise might actually bring about a more efficient industry that meets the needs of consumers and artists better.
AllOfMP3 is what these companies deserve after their manipulation of copyright laws and buying congress for the DMCA.
Parent
Re:It's Hardly Scary (Score:5, Funny)
I can live with that.
Parent
Re:It's Hardly Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, right. Like with the availability of cheap (free) software programmers lose their incentive to create, too. The only trouble with your argument is that it's not true, and never was.
So, which "multi-billion dollar industry" company do you work for, hmm?
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Re:Pirates: Think about the people you're hurting (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Pirates: Think about the people you're hurting (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Pirates: Think about the people you're hurting (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Pirates: Think about the people you're hurting (Score:5, Insightful)
To be fair, however, I think the following are more contributing factors to your store's demise than piracy:
* eBay
* half.com
* amazon.com
* Best Buy
* WalMart
* Direct Artist Sales/Websites
* iTMS
Parent
Re:Pirates: Think about the people you're hurting (Score:5, Insightful)
If your big enough, or know others in your industry in the same boat as you and can join them , set up a commercial web site. If iTunes does not carry the rare stuff you do, you may have a market online for your material. The musicians want to sell it online, your clients want to buy it.
You probably only have a few years left. Get moving now while you have a customer base and cash. Step 1 is realizing that selling CD's is a dead end. Period. Gas Stations don't make any money selling gas. They realized that and now virtually every station has a (profitable) convenient store attached. Records stores don't make any money selling records. The big chain stores have already converted half their floor space to DVD's, MP3 players, electronics and accessories. They only carry CD's to attract browsers who buy profitable items. How much revenue do you make selling MP3 players? memory cards? CD accessories? DVD's? You do sell those, right? Because your customers trust you and are intimidated by the big box stores?
You have a lot of options. Music isn't going away. Quit whining and get to work....
Move with the market or get run over.
JON
Parent
WWJD? (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Pirates: Think about the people you're hurting (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Just an opinion (Score:5, Insightful)
For example, the studio's expensive equipment is not nearly as expensive as it used to be. Recordings made today with a little firewire preamp and a copy of garageband sound better than recordings made in the old magnetic tape based studios.
And all that advertising and shoving the music down peoples' throats? Look at how viral advertising on the interweb has made phenomenon out of the silliest crap. Make something enough people genuinely enjoy, and it has a good chance of making its way around the 'net.
More and more small bands are learning that they can get their music heard without bending over and getting fucked by the RIAA. This is great news! The only major hurdle at this point that's blocking non-RIAA bands from going mainstream is the strangle hold the RIAA has on the radio industry. Thankfully, thinks like podcasting are negating even that need.
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Re:Just an opinion (Score:5, Insightful)
Contrary to popular opinion, artists do not have a Natural Right to profit from their work. In fact it is the opposite: the natural state of creative works is to be "owned" by all of society, because (unlike real (i.e. physical) property) they can be freely shared and duplicated.
Now, because Jefferson and the other writers of the Constitution realized that enhancing this information sharing (through the Public Domain) was a Good Thing, they decided to construct a mechanism by which artists and inventors would be encouraged to create. So, they wrote a clause into the Constitution that gives creators an oppertunity to profit from their work, in the hope that the lure of profit would inspire them.
However, profit was only means to an end, not the end itself. The express purpose of copyright is "To Promote the Progess of Science and the Useful Arts." Copyright is not a right (despite the name); it is a construct of law -- a "social contract," if you will -- and as in all contracts, it requires concession from both parties. The artist concedes to give his work to the Public Domain, and the public concedes to grant him a temporary monopoly over distribution of his idea.
Now, just as with any contract, if one party breaks it then the other party is no longer bound by it. By bribing Congress the "content industry" has effectively caused copyright to become perpetual, which means that the artist (or rather, the entity the artist sold his rights to) effectively concedes nothing, at the cost of the public. Therefore, the social contract is null and void, and it is perfectly reasonable for citizens to ignore it.
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Re:Just an opinion (Score:4, Insightful)
The second half of my point is that Jefferson et. al. -- the guys that created copyright law as we know it -- would also disagree with you about its purpose. Although your interpretation seems to promote "fairness" (from a particular point of view), it also creates a monopoly and an entitlement -- and the Founding Fathers hated monopolies and entitlements. Instead, they explicitly rejected "fairness" as a basis for copyright law, and instead created it on the basis of being good for society as a whole.
In other words, you're entitled to your opinion, but if I'm "full of it" then Jefferson was too!
Parent
Re:Enough of the FUD, here are some facts. (Score:4, Interesting)
only if the AMA has been going around suing the manufacturers and purchasers of over the counter medications (specifically mothers, grandmothers, and little kids) because their manufacture, trafficing, and purchase of said over the counter medications is "stealing" from doctors.
only if they had laws passed making it illegal to do the above, and forcing many companies and unions to pay kickbacks to doctors because their newer and safer working conditions are also robbing doctors of valuable revenue they would have had in the archaic times before OSHA and unions.
maybe then there would be an analogy, otherwise we're looking at apples and oranges.
ROMS only legally and ethically represents Russian artists under Russian copyright law. Russian copyright law only applies to Russian residents.
in this case.. it applies to russion firms, which may sell anywhere they choose, and so long as they stay on russian soil only russian law applies. the recording industries of other nations could petition ROMS and have themselves added to the list of those compensated, but they don't want to.. they want iron fisted control to which they should not be entitled, but which our whores.. err political representatives.. have given them since 1998.
Because
replace allofmp3 with "the makers of the vcr", and you get the same argument, would you say using a vcr is piracy too?
Allofmp3.com is essentially the same as if one of you setup a site where you ripped CD's you owned or had borrowed and put up the rips songs for sale. The difference between your service and allofmp3 is that you would be arrested for piracy because you do not live in Russia or operate your business out of Russia.
ok true, but this is perfectly legal in russia, therefore it's only piracy in your opinion according to your morality.
Also, notice the russian recording industry is doing just fine in a nation which by our standards is "rampant with piracy".
ask yourself why we need these laws when theyre doing just fine without them?
Parent
Re:Enough of the FUD, here are some facts. (Score:4, Insightful)
Record companies invest money first, then sell a product to recoup their investment.
Come on buddy, this is capitalism: investment failed--game over. It's not the government's job to legally ensure anyone profit in any market. Protection of "intellectual property", while not forbidden by the US constitution, is not gauranteed by it either.
Copyright is a bargain that the government makes on behalf of the public. It buys art and other intellectual property from artists by spending our freedom. With the help of copyright, publishing was once made sustainable. We've witnessed, however, that thanks to sites like allofmp3.com, that copyright protection is no longer a useful nor necessary foundation for the distribution of music.
Artists are not gods; they are not entitled to monetary rewards for their efforts. Neither are publishing companies. If they can manage to turn a profit, good for them--if not, ask if anyone cares. Lots of markets die, lots of industries go under. Cry me a river.
Times are changing, and artists will adapt. If music weren't so profitable, we'd probably see better music. Just as Free software has given us an example that self-motivated programmers can produce fantastic programs, self-motivated musicians can create amazing and wonderful music.
Also, we notice that many people who develop Free software actually make a decent living, and they're getting paid fairly. That's because there's more to making money than state-enforced manipulation of the distribution of information.
Lots of people scream at Free software and say it's not possible, that it isn't true, but that doesn't stop it from flourishing. Lots of people will scream at IP-free art. They can scream until they're blue in the face.
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