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Korea's Online Aggression a Taste of the Future?
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:41 AM
from the smart-mobs-redefined dept.
from the smart-mobs-redefined dept.
DerGeist writes "Imagine your life ruined by an organized mob that convicts with scant, unreliable evidence. Fueled only by hearsay and rumors, an invisible horde of your fellow citizens begins bombarding your snailbox, email, phone, work, school and family with threats, insults and general harassment. You are forced to drop out of school and quit your job as a result of constant attacks. You are shunned and ridiculed in public as anywhere you go, you are instantly recognized. Although it may seem to be just a second-rate Hollywood nightmare scenario reminiscent of "The Net," this sort of "organized mob" justice is being dealt out freely in South Korea where net usage is booming. So freely, in fact, that almost 1 in 10 of 13-65 year-olds has felt its sting. Could this trend hit the U.S.? Will policing net behavior eventually become necessary?"
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It could never happen here (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It could never happen here (Score:4, Interesting)
One could suggest that South Koreans really need to get out more.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.google.com/search?q=steve+bartman&start =0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozi lla:en-US:official [google.com]
Re:It could never happen here (Score:5, Insightful)
The U.S. citizen has lost all notion of public shame.
On the contrary, we've inverted public shame, turning "innocent until proven guilty" into "trial by public opinion." We're usually shaming the wrong people. Take this break in the JonBenet Ramsey case -- turns out it wasn't the parents, but some nut-job ex-teacher. But back 10 years ago, they were hounded by the media and public opinion was decidedly against them. True, they didn't make themselves look good, but the fact is people were browbeating them, hoping they'd confess.
The fact is, we have a "pile on" mentality here in the US. Once something is out in the open and there's even one piece of information that can be flogged (or blogged) to death, people jump on the bandwagon without using any critical reasoning skills. So yes, this could happen here, but to the wrong people, for the wrong reasons.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
-dave
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Normally I would say "yes," but if you've seen the videom the guy confessed. Now I don't know about you (and IANAL), but when you confess to a crime, doesn't that usually count as an admission of guilt?
Re:It could never happen here (Score:5, Insightful)
Confessions are never taken at face value by any judge or jury worth its salt, nor should they be. I've been reading a lot about this guy over the last day (almost impossible not to, with the news coverage) and he sure seems like a guy who's been obsessed with the whole case for a while and also has been convicted of sex crimes in the past. He's obviously not all there in the head. Doesn't mean he didn't do it, but it's looking more and more like a big hoax to me: http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/08/17/D8JI9JDG
His ex-wife also seems to have an alibi for him, saying he was with her in a different state when this murder occurred. Now, it seems to me that if your ex-wife is giving you an alibi when you're already a convicted sex offender, she's probably telling the truth. What possible motive could she have other than to just see justice done? (Which in this case would mean catching the right guy, not just some guy who says he did it.)
We'll see. But I think a lot of you here are proving the point of the original article in this thread - you're jumping to conclusions about guilt when right now, there is more saying this guy is innocent than otherwise. (And anyway, you're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty in this country, in part because of things like false confessions.)
Parent
Re:It could never happen here (Score:4, Insightful)
We'll see. But I think a lot of you here are proving the point of the original article in this thread - you're jumping to conclusions about guilt when right now, there is more saying this guy is innocent than otherwise.
The problem is -- his confession challenges his innocence. In essence, he's saying "I did it" and expecting everyone to agree. For the prosecutors and the police, the hard part becomes turning their way of thinking around and going "how can we prove this guy isn't guilty?" Guilt or innocence defined by law sometimes has little to do with guilt or innocence in fact or deed.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It could never happen here (Score:5, Insightful)
I must be old fashioned. I generally don't believe in convictions until a Jury has heard the case.
The ex-wife of this teacher has now stated that he was with her in alabama when the killing occured, and another witness said he was obsessed with reading reports on the Ramsey killing as well as some another girl who died in california.
While he's said some things which weren't public, he's also said some things which contradict the evidence.
So you'll forgive me if I don't convict him in public. Think maybe I'll wait for the police to investigate and go from there.
Parent
Re:It could never happen here (Score:5, Interesting)
The Japanese hostages in Iraq were treated much more harshly by public opinion than American or European hostages were in those countries. Keep in mind that they were aid workers who had gone to help the Iraqi people but the Japanese public were quite hostile to them after their rescue, and they had to apologise to the public for the trouble and embarrasment they'd caused the government. (News story here) [nzherald.co.nz] (blog post here) [ito.com]
This despite the fact that the deployment to Iraq was itself unpopular, and most people opposed it. I think the hostages were seen as embarrasing the country with the attention they were getting, and seeking fame for themselves.
What you describe is just people leaping to judgement of who commited a murder, which happens in every society.
Parent
It has already happened here (HERE, meaning /.) (Score:5, Insightful)
I can think of several examples where spammers' personal info was posted to Slashdot, and the (alleged) spammer was subjected to harassment in virtually all of the ways described in the article.
Parent
Re:It has already happened here (HERE, meaning /.) (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:It could never happen here (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Yes, it can happen here (Score:5, Insightful)
Or you can pose as other people saying nasty things about that person and make it sound like a large number of people hate this person.
Using anonymous proxies (or remailers on USENET) will make you increasingly resistant to being discovered and punished; but even if you are, that person will still have to clear their name with employers and such that don't know the "rest" of the story (such as, it's all a lie and perhaps their attacker is now in jail). The thing is, employers would rather not hire people mired in that kind of drama; so even if God tells them the truth, that only bolsters their decision not to hire the victim of such online malevolence.
This has all the elements it needs to be the next wave of domestic terrorism in America: anyone can do it, and the damage can be overwhelming. Plus, law enforcement is typically too slow and unconcerned with dealing with people who do this, and when this wave of terrorism hits its stride, civil courts will be crushed by all the thousands - or millions - of court cases, as every Tom Dick and Harry in the world takes advantage of what will be seen as the most powerful weapon of mass defamation in history.
I say "in history" because it's super cheap (free), super easy, super effective and super devastating, if the harasser knows how to do it right in the correct forums where information will propagate far and wide.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe this would even let people judge others by their actions and not their image in public
ah, the ostrich syndrome (Score:3, Interesting)
I can make that scenario I described happen in 5 days flat. I've actually done all those things to online bullies before. There's a guy in Illinois who can't get a job because he threatened to sodomize a USENET poster's kid and I posed as him reposting his remark at local web boards and even had someone post his remarks on paper on a few telephone poles.
Yeah, he got an attorney, and yeah, I offered to fly out and answer to libe
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If you do port 24 hacking then I am the President of the US. That's port 25, kid. Don't talk big about stuff when you can't even get your story right, blowhard. Defamatory USENET
Nope... (Score:5, Funny)
No, because every smart admin trys to block all IPs from Korea!
Oh do you mean could rumors and shit started by people in the US hit hard here? They already do. People are always into drama, especially online. They are hiding behind their computers and believe they are anonymous.
There's really nothing better than receiving threatening e-mails at work and home as well as subscriptions to gay magazines, threats of violence against your home, family, and dog just because you locked a thread on a forum.
It really makes the Internet fun.
Re:Nope... (Score:4, Insightful)
They believe they are anonymous on the highways in their cars! Look at the assholes cutting people off, tailgaiting, passing on the shoulder, cutting people off, etc..
Our fellow humans do not act civilized unless you can reach out and smack them... Then they act civilized.
in a car, online, they act like assholes. Always have and always will.
Parent
If it's legally harassment, sure (Score:5, Interesting)
Sure beats North Korea's online aggression (Score:3, Funny)
But technology changes SO quickly! (Score:3, Funny)
Nope, they've seen the latest Norwegian research [com.com] and are moving up to ip-packet-carrying birds. The good news is that you can disable that network with a 20-gauge shotgun, and in a pinch, those pigeons are actually edible. Pheasants (which originate in Asia) are better eating [uplandlife.com], but don't home as well, and t
The news media are far worse (Score:5, Interesting)
Who needs the net to ruin lives when you have the traditional media? Ask the parents of JonBenet Ramsey or Richard Jewel about having your life ruined by false accusations. Do you think CNN will ever have to pay for either spectacle?
Re:The news media are far worse (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't place 100% o the blame on the cook when the customer orders a pile of fried shit.
Honestly, this case and many like it should have never made national media level attention.
Parent
This really isn't anything new (Score:5, Insightful)
Small towns used to be this way (and still are) where every small little thing get talked about and blown out of proportion.
In the town I grew up in merely having a young males car parked outside a young females house while he goes and visits another young male across the street will spawn all kinds of rumors and anger.
Television has been doing this for quite a while, just take the recent developments in the Jon Benet Ramsey case. I can't even remember at this point why everyone threw so much anger at the parents.
Until people stop hating at first site this won't go away.
Reminds me of a funny joke (Score:5, Funny)
Mildred, the church gossip, and self-appointed monitor of the church's morals, kept sticking her nose into other people's business. Several members did not approve of her extra-curricular activities, but feared her enough to maintain their silence.
She made a mistake, however, when she accused George, a new member, of being an alcoholic after she saw his old pickup parked in front of the town's only bar one afternoon.
She emphatically told George and several others that everyone seeing it there would know what he was doing. George, a man of few words, stared at her for a moment and just turned and walked away. He didn't explain, defend, or deny. He said nothing.
Later that evening, George quietly parked his pickup in front of Mildred's house ... and left it there all night.
Parent
Re:This really isn't anything new (Score:4, Insightful)
I can't even remember at this point why everyone threw so much anger at the parents.
Because parading a child on stage dressed as a cheap whore is no way to treat a 5-year-old.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Policing net behavior eventually become necessary? (Score:4, Insightful)
US media does it for us.... (Score:2, Redundant)
print version (Score:2)
http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/artic
OK, umm... (Score:3, Insightful)
While an amusing image, I'm having a hard time believing it.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
From TFA: one guy has his life ruined from net->reality hostility.
Also from TFA: "A poll taken in November showed that nearly one of 10 South Koreans from 13 to 65 said they had experienced cyberviolence."
Whatever the hell that is.
Thanks, editors.
Let me do my share: the editors are jackasses. There now they have all suffered cyberviolence, too. Just like the single dude in this article.
Could we start tagging articles a
We already have the necessary laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Damn Koreans... (Score:2)
Gang Warfare's (Score:2)
We're still in the wild West days of the web (Score:2)
Things are still being figured out. I think the powers that be will finally conclude one day that John and Jane Doe cannot be allowed to access the Internet without being identifiable to law enforcement. Hopefully we can convince the politicians not to let that happen, but seems like every other week there's a new ignorant Internet law on the table.
Gangstalking (Score:2, Informative)
Reminds me oddly of this:
http://www.gangstalking.ca/ [gangstalking.ca]
Also, watch the video:
http://www.eharassment.ca/videos.htm [eharassment.ca]
It's already happened here... (Score:3, Interesting)
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/21/00552
What do you mean with "COULD happen"? (Score:4, Interesting)
And let's not even get close to afternoon TV and other forms of "entertainment" that resemble a freak show more than anything.
Could it be worse? Would "online mobbing" be worse? Hardly. Online only means that more people learn about it, but 99.9999% of those don't care at all. They don't know you, wouldn't even recognize you if they met you on the street. What matters is your peers, and it is fairly easy to tell them about whatever you did supposedly do or say, with or without the 'net.
If you really want to mob someone to the point where he loses friends and family, you don't need the net. You only need gullible people, and they are running free in our streets.
Don't Mess with Korean Superstars (Score:5, Interesting)
Certain participants are so popular, that if a not-so-popular star insults a popular one (even during a game called "Dangyon Haji", or "Of Course", where the OBJECT of the game is to insult the other person until they quit), that not-so-popular one will get bombarded with hate e-mail, hate-posts, and sometimes they even get bombarded by physical objects! Their popularity drops dramatically. Some stars have been known to lose intentionally to avoid earning the wrath and ire of the "fans."
I don't think this has anything to do with the fact that they "teched-up" rapidly before online etiquette was formed. This has more to do with emotion-driven Korean culture. The word "fan" comes from "fanatic," and that is what some of the "fans" really are!
Re:Don't Mess with Korean Superstars (Score:4, Informative)
I don't have a link, but maybe 2 months ago I read about a similar story in China where an online mob seriously harassed a married woman and a man she was supposedly having an affair with before it became known that the woman's estranged husband made up everything just to get back at her and none of it was true. I'd say it's really an Asian thing as opposed to a Korean thing.
Parent
My uncle is experienced this last year (Score:4, Interesting)
You see my uncle is a lawyer who is a giant question mark in the mainstream media & the general public and it doesnt help his name shows up in a lot of court decisions posted on our government's Supreme Court website. For the curious by-stander who just happened to have a casual interest you would automically assume my uncle was truelly that "evil" seeming he was mentioned in so many contraversial Supreme Court cases. I do not blame people making such brash assumptions seeming court documents are long, wordy & use very legalistic terms that would cause any non-lawyer to scratch his head and make wild guesses. It is far easier to trust a female celebrity guesting on the local equivalent of the Oprah who bashes my uncle as the devil than to make the effort to get the whole unvarnished truth through court documents.
Because of these lengthy legal papers people automatically think all the things the ex-lover said was true, that he was a real monster.
If only people took the time to read the legal papers they'd see that the ex-lover was manipulating them. It pisses me off that the ex-lover had to dredge up our family feud & shame that legally ended with a Philippine Supreme Court decision back in 1991. I will probably never forgive her for that.
I can relate to the Korean fellow whose reputation was tarnished because of very malicious rumors & half truths spread by those who make assumptions.
I know a lot of people dont like lawyers but please, no taste-less jokes that lawyers deserve this kind of flack. I also know by not including links my post doesnt pack the punch that would really make the discussion & I apologize.
Old News (Score:4, Informative)
I couldn't help thinking that Poe (others too, probably) already thought of this 150 years ago, specifically in Some Words With a Mummy [eserver.org] , written in 1850.
Already happens (Score:4, Interesting)
Even though it was probably some 'script kiddie', this kind of stuff being emailed to nontechies can be mortifying.
Re:Already happens (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Today in America... (Score:3, Insightful)
/b/ is the next level up. All forced anonymous. They've brought moronic commercial services like Habbo Hotel, Furcadia and Second Life to a halt, overloading servers and disrupting legitimate users. The
Now, when tens of thousands of these people are concentrated in one small country, they seem to reach mass and their actions spill into the real world. They also become shielded from internal conscience. When the legions of American vigilantes want blood they tend to restrain themselves from crossing into real world criminal behavior, and a sane few have shown they can temper the mania of the masses. In America, cliques of vigilantes are seperated and mingle little. Single system administrators like SA's Lowtax, YTMND's Max, or 4chan's Moot can kill their isolated mobs. South Korea seems to present a more united front - hell, even their search portals name the most popular target/victim of the day. Their culture isn't strikingly different from American online culture. Their fanatic individuals are far more common, however, and their offensive actions are coordinated across servers, while voices of reason are fractured and lost.
Extremely old news (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not so true now...but years ago, a person had to be very careful what they said online. You'd never know what unhinged lunatic might see your words, take them personally, and then decide to do something about them.
Barn door. Horses. Futility. (Score:3, Informative)
I assume that we're ignoring the fact that it's usually nigh-impossible to find the people who started the whole rumor mill going or that it's impossible to sue EVERYBODY involved in mob harrassment or that you may have actually done what you're accused of like the woman who was infamously harrassed for letting her dog poop in a subway car and refused to clean it up, etc.?
Well, the main problem is that suing people can take years and is basically closing the barn door after