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Google Denies Data In Brazil Orkut Case

Posted by kdawson on Sat Sep 30, 2006 04:31 PM
from the whose-laws? dept.
mikesd81 writes, "The AP reports that Google filed a motion in response to a Brazilian judge's deadline to turn over information on users of the company's social networking service Orkut. An earlier AP story gives the background: 'On Aug. 22, Federal Judge Jose Marcos Lunardelli gave Google's Brazilian affiliate until Sept. 28 to release information needed to identify individuals accused of using Orkut to spread child pornography and engage in hate speech against blacks, Jews and homosexuals. Google claims that its Brazilian affiliate cannot provide the information because all the data about Orkut users is stored outside Brazil at the company's U.S.-based headquarters. Google maintains that it is open to requests for information from foreign governments as long as the requests comply with U.S. laws and that they are issued within the country where the information is stored.'" Eight million Brazilians, about a quarter of the country's Internet-using population, are members of Orkut.
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[+] Google Brazil Pressured to Give Up Names 263 comments
Kordau writes "Google Brazil is under pressure to release user info from Orkut, relating to a child porn investigation by the Brazilian government. Google Brazil maintains that the info officials want is held on US servers and if they want the info, they should talk to Google USA."
[+] Your Rights Online: Google to Give Data To Brazilian Court 182 comments
Edu writes to mention a Washington Post article about Google's olive branch to the Brazilian courts. Despite previously refusing to reveal search information to the U.S. government, the company has announced they'll be releasing information on hate groups to the Brazilian courts. The move is intended to allow the Brazilian government to identify users associated with homophobic and racist groups. From the article: "Orkut pulls objectionable words and pictures from user sites, but Google stores content it feels could be useful in a lawsuit. Orkut is especially popular in Brazil, which accounts for 75 percent of its 17 million users. Legal and privacy experts said that Google had no choice but to comply with the court order. 'From the law enforcement perspective, if the records are in the possession of the business, the business can be compelled to produce them,' said Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Washington-based Electronic Privacy Information Center."
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  • Interesting (Score:3, Insightful)

    by B3ryllium (571199) on Saturday September 30 2006, @04:34PM (#16261025) Homepage
    That's going to be quite a kerfuffle, I would imagine.

    Kudos to google for protecting user's rights, though.
    • by flooey (695860) on Saturday September 30 2006, @04:38PM (#16261051)
      That's going to be quite a kerfuffle, I would imagine.

      Kudos to google for protecting user's rights, though.


      And kudos to you, sir, for using the word kerfuffle.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      I think Google isn't protecting any rights, but just being legally right. From TFA: "Google maintains that it is open to requests for information from foreign governments as long as the requests comply with U.S. laws and that they are issued within the country where the information is stored.'" So, no kudos from me!!
      • So, you posit that in order for Google to comply with its "don't be evil" motto, they have to grant their users more protection than they're granted by law?

        Or, to put it more precisely, you think Google should fight for their users's right to privacy even when it is illegal for them to do so?

        Would you care to explain this to me in some more detail?

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      Yes kudos to Google for protecting criminals. If the story is right (granted it's a news item), the Brazilian police have identified accounts that are being used for the crimes, and wants their IP addresses so they can track them down.

      Also Google isn't defending the users rights, they are simply saying "Send the request to Mountain View, not to our local affiliate," whether they are doing that as a delaying measure or not remains to be seen.

      • Re:Interesting (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Korin43 (881732) on Saturday September 30 2006, @04:51PM (#16261161) Homepage Journal
        I think the point is that Google isn't going to give away information to just anyone who asks, they have to fill out a form and stand in line just like everyone else.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        Yes kudos to Google for protecting criminals.

        The morality of their actions is open to opinion. So-called "hate speech", for example, is not only not illegal in the US, but is actually protected by the US Constitution. While Brazilians obviously aren't governed by US law, it still shows that Google "protecting criminals" isn't necessarily a bad thing.
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          Yes because obviously the US Constitution is the best constitution there is.
          • It may not be the "best" - not that I know how to quantify that - but it certainly seems to have better free-speech protections than Brazil's.
          • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

            Good point. Many of the recent wars and political stand-offs have been driven by a sense in infallibility in American politics. They need to realize that even if leaders imply action is based on American principles, these principles may not be good enough to impose on other people.

            Some level of maturity needs to be applied though. I'd hand over the logs if serious crimes were committed, but some data must have gone past Brazilian ISPs before google. Why aren't they made to respond first?
            • Actually, the US constitution is not really relevant to this discussion except for the 1st Amendment "Right to Free Speech". The US has one of the least restrictive governmental policies in the world on freedom of speech, so I'm not sure what the complaint would be.
          • more to the point, the U.S. Constitution is the one that governs Google HQ, and thus this information.
          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            > Yes because obviously the US Constitution is the best constitution there is.

            Considering that it's kept us democratic and free for 219 years, without a single military coup in history, I'd say it's a darned good one.
            • How do you know? Seems your election procedures are not open lately.
              • Maybe and maybe not, but either way, we do have a re-election coming up soon, you know?

                If this were not a functional democracy, that would not be the case. Then again, it's not over till the fat lady sings and all that.
            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              > Yes because obviously the US Constitution is the best constitution there is.

              Considering that it's kept us democratic and free for 219 years, without a single military coup in history, I'd say it's a darned good one.

              Well, there was the small issue of a civil war, so i reckon there's probably a couple of constitutions with a beter track record.

              The part about democratic is also flawed: i suggest that investigate "gerrymandering" to see how politicians make sure they get reelected whether or not they do a

            • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

              We call those people the Klu Klux Klan. Let's confivt them of their crimes and let them be assfucked by gay niggers in prison.
      • Re:Interesting (Score:4, Interesting)

        by MightyYar (622222) on Saturday September 30 2006, @04:58PM (#16261227)
        Yes kudos to Google for protecting criminals.

        Ah, but "criminals" are different in each country, aren't they? From the article:

        Google insisted it already had complied with court requests to identify individuals accused of using Orkut to spread child pornography and engage in hate speech against blacks, Jews and homosexuals.

        In the US, child pornography is illegal, but you can say anything you want about blacks, Jews, and homosexuals. It's not going to win you any popularity contests, but you can be as much of a racist bigoted anti-semitic prick as you want to be. Frankly, it is frightening that you can be arrested for stating your opinions - no matter how despicable. This is why the "Madonna potentially getting arrested in Germany for offending Christians" news item got so much play state-side.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        Methinks Google is trying to avoid wasting a precious evidence (ips of the offenders) on processual grounds. Someone could try to defend himself challenging the way the evidence was obtained.

        Also, they can't release user information stored in USA without a proper court order (eg. an US court order). If they do so, they are risking themselves to lawsuits. I guess Google wants the evidence gathering done in a perfect (legal) manner, protecting users rights (according to US law), rather than protecting the cri
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      If you want open just 'only a marketing office' at foreign countries, you really need obey the foreign contries laws. If you not agree with this, pack your stuff and go out. well, about protecting user's rights, exist a list with exact names to be show. There's not the entire orkut or the entire brazilian database at orkut.
      • Re:Interesting (Score:5, Insightful)

        by russotto (537200) on Saturday September 30 2006, @05:19PM (#16261341) Journal
        I see. So if AT&T had an office in Saudi Arabia, they should comply with Saudi requests for phone records concerning Americans who had made remarks disparaging to Saudi Arabia, if those records were requested in accordance with Saudi law? Opening an office in a country shouldn't subject your entire opetation to that countries' laws.
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          almost right.
          So if AT&T had an office in Saudi Arabia, they should comply with Saudi requests for phone records concerning SAUDI who had made remarks disparaging to Saudi Arabia.
          • Re:Interesting (Score:5, Interesting)

            by MightyYar (622222) on Saturday September 30 2006, @06:01PM (#16261587)
            So, in your opinion, is it better for AT&T (or Google) to not do business in Saudi Arabia (or Brazil), or for them to resist the authorities and get closed down? I'm a little torn on this issue, so I like to hear from people about this. In this case, Google would have had to refuse to do business in Brazil because Brazilian free speech laws are more repressive than in the US. I don't know if I agree with that. If American firms refused to do business in all countries with more restrictive free speech rules than the US, there would be virtually no US presence overseas. Or, more likely, there would hardly be any company based in the US.
              • I don't think you understand American law. You can say whatever you want about "homos" or blacks. You cannot go to jail, and no one does go to jail for what they say. Child pornography is illegal, however. I didn't say that I thought the US was "the best", just that speech is freer here. The only restrictions on free speech are immediate danger (such as yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater) and calls for violent action (such as "Everyone meet me outside the courthouse so that we can burn it to the ground!").

          • Right, and the issue is that this doesn't have anything to do with the actual local office in Brazil, or didn't you catch that part? If our government got sneaky and had a foreign power put pressure on a local office in their country to hand over the search data that the department of (in)justice wants so badly but has been refused, that would be undermining OUR local laws. Understand how that could be used against you now?
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        I don't know what country you're from, but I do know that one of the rights many countries bestow upon their citizens is that of due process. The proper process for this is to have the police or the judge make the government request the info from Google's head office.
  • Google are acting the political entity they are complete with foreign policy and juridical independence.

    Google is no longer an ongoing enterprise, folks.
  • by bigdavesmith (928732) on Saturday September 30 2006, @05:53PM (#16261555)
    If Google kept their servers in space, or on the moon, or somewhere where no country really has claim, could they just ignore any request by any government to hand over data?
  • Who owns the data? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by cryfreedomlove (929828) on Saturday September 30 2006, @05:56PM (#16261567)
    If Google owns the data then one option they have is to simply destroy it. No government can compell them to hand over something they no longer have.
    • This worked well for Enron. You just get in trouble for destroying evidence.
    • If Google owns the data then one option they have is to simply destroy it. No government can compell them to hand over something they no longer have.

      That would generally be called obstruction of justice, which would expose individuals inside Google to the possibility of spending some time in a Brazilian jail. If a court of law has asked you for information, it's illegal to destroy it.
      • Brazilian courts have asked for the data. I live in the USA. I'll destroy the data and Brazil can cry in their beer.
        • Brazilian courts have asked for the data. I live in the USA. I'll destroy the data and Brazil can cry in their beer.

          Except for the fact that obstruction of justice is one of the crimes covered by the US-Brazil extradition treaty. Are you willing to stake your freedom on the United States government caring more about you than their relations with the largest country in South America?
      • That would generally be called obstruction of justice, which would expose individuals inside Google to the possibility of spending some time in a Brazilian jail. If a court of law has asked you for information, it's illegal to destroy it.

        They would have to prove you distroyed it interntionally. You know, hard drives crash, backup routines fail for mechanical and human error reasons... /me hides gasoline can
  • by reflector (62643) on Saturday September 30 2006, @09:09PM (#16262555)
    ...that's a lot of orkut users!
  • the problem is: the Brazilian prosecutors subpoened Google's Brazilian office.

    the Brazilian office doesn't have access to the data stored in the servers, based in the USA. Google's brazilian office is a law firm, probably there are no techies there.

    when the brazilian prosecutors present their request properly to Google in USA the data will be handed over. It has been done before:

    http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?com mand=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9003739&intsrc=new s_ts_head [computerworld.com]
  • First, I have no pity for the child porn distributors. Theoretically it could be very borderline material, but it is probably terribly vile stuff that requires long prison sentences.

    The hate speech issue on the other hand is very serious. What is determined to be hate speech in this situation? Is it calling for the genocide of a particular group or is it an offensive joke? Who gets to make a call on this? If someone from Brazil states that affirmative action should be overturned, are they committing a
    • Racism and child pornography are crimes in Brazil.
    • The subjects who the Brazilian goverment are after are in Brazilian territory.
    • Denying this information so the Brazilian police can prosecute these criminals is obstruction of justice, which is a crime.

    So no, they are not preserving user rights, they are preventing the investigation to go forward.

    • Without a doubt if Google loses here it will set a precedent for other governments to invade our privacy.
    • by GigsVT (208848) on Saturday September 30 2006, @05:53PM (#16261549) Journal
      pedophiles and racist hatemongers. I think we can all get behind throwing such people in very small cells with no windows and melting the key down as they watch.

      Pedophilia isn't a crime, and neither is hating someone. So, no, not everyone wants to live in your Orwellian fantasy where thoughtcrime is a common reason to throw someone in jail.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        Amen to that! Hating someone may be immoral. (I certainly think it is.) But hating someone is *not* a crime. Crime is in the action, or at least attempted action. Wanting to hate someone or rape someone or kill someone or blow up a building, etc. is *very* different from actually doing any of those things.
              • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

                > I wonder if you have a wikipedia article that supports that outrageous claim that criminalizing anything is just wrong

                First, not "criminalizing anything" but "criminalizing possession".

                Second, Wikipedia is no place for opinions, including right/wrong values.
                Incidentally, "outrageous" is also a value judgement.

                Third, the AC reply (post #16264725 [slashdot.org]) presents a good case.

                > where does this viewpoint come from?

                Thinking about the society we live in and, analyzing where it is headed, talking to various peopl
        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          And just in case anyone is wondering, the Federal Government can (and does) codify by regulation that some people "must...be of good moral character" [akamaitech.net]. Pedophilia is really an issue of morality. So, while pedophilia is not explicitly prohibited by law, it is explicitly not protected from discrimination.

          Anyway, that's just my take on the CFRs. I am not a liar^H^H^Hawyer.
    • Umm I may stand corrected, but while Google has agreed to block some content for China. I am quite sure they have maintained and stuck by their policy of not providing any Data to China, something Yahoo and other companies have done.
    • And just how are you going to melt the key while they watch, if their cell has no windows?
      • Actually I think being a pedophile is legal most places. It just becomes illegal if you act on those urges.
        At that with the USAs freedom of speech it must be fine to talk about molesting kids or dressing up young looking adults as sexy children.
        Speech is Speech whether talking hate or sex.
         
        • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

          At that with the USAs freedom of speech it must be fine to talk about molesting kids or dressing up young looking adults as sexy children.
          Speech is Speech whether talking hate or sex.


          Within the past week [thehometownchannel.com] a woman in my state, PA, was indicted by federal authorities for posting sexual stories online that included sex with children. My personal feelingis that as long as it was just words she shouldn't have been indicted, but the feds pretty much get to do whatever they want.

          LK
    • I was on Orkut during the Brazilian invasion. They made a concerted attempt to take over the service, posting in Portuguese everywhere, even on communities that were marked as English language. The English-speaking users left by the thousands, and Orkut basically became a Brazilian system. I haven't logged in in months; last time I did I got a bunch of Brazilian spam and that was it.
        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          Slashdot is a place to discuss technology, politics, and the philosophy of living.....not for being a racist dumb*ss... I use Orkut. I talk to my Brazilian friends. I have no problems. As for being arrogant and self-righteous, it is apparent that you have never talked to a Brazilian. They are some of the warmest, kindest, and open people on the globe. Perhaps that's why they share great relations with every nation. Yes even some of our enemies, but let's not get into our own 'flawless' foreign policy and a