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Professor Michael Geist on Vista's Fine Print
Posted by
Hemos
on Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:35 AM
from the peering-into-the-dark-legal-innards dept.
from the peering-into-the-dark-legal-innards dept.
Russell McOrmond writes "With Microsoft's Vista set to hit stores tomorrow, Michael Geist's weekly Law Bytes column (Toronto Star version, homepage version) looks at the legal and technical fine print behind the operating system upgrade. The article notes that in the name of shielding consumers from computer viruses and protecting copyright owners from potential infringement, Vista seemingly wrestles control of the "user experience" from the user. If you are a Canadian and think that the owner of computers should be in control of what they own, rather than some third party (whether virus authors or the manufacturer/maker), then please sign our Petition to protect Information Technology property rights."
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News: Study Says P2P Downloaders Buy More Music 158 comments
An anonymous reader writes "Michael Geist posts to his site about a study commissioned by the Canadian government intended to look into the buying habits of music fans. What the study found is that 'there is a positive correlation between peer-to-peer downloading and CD purchasing.' The report is entitled The Impact of Music Downloads and P2P File-Sharing on the Purchase of Music: A Study For Industry Canada, and it was 'conducted collaboratively by two professors from the University of London, Industry Canada, and Decima Research, who surveyed over 2,000 Canadians on their music downloading and purchasing habits. The authors believe this is the first ever empirical study to employ representative microeconomic data.'"
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That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Funny)
All three of them? I wouldn't have thought that three people makes a stampede, no matter how fast they run.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It's not the speed of the running, it's the weight of the runners...
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Funny)
"...Developers! Developers! Developers!..."
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, do look at FairPlay (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, look at it. Its dominance is forcing the record labels to consider abandoning DRM altogether (see prior Slashdot article). And it's from a company who said early on that they weren't a fan of DRM and has refused to license it.
Let's put it this way - less DRM means more iPods sold. The iTMS is just infrastructure to sell iPods, not a massive source of revenue. And they could make good money licensing FairPlay.
Maybe I'm wearing rose-colored gl
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Interesting)
There is just no reason to go to the junk that is called Vista. I hope WinXP will still allow me to do the few things I need to in MS Windows for the next 3-5 years, then I can see what the OS landscape is like.
As for others saying Apple is just as bad as MS when it comes to restrictions and DRM, they are clueless. I never had to do any "activation" on my two Intel Macs. The only DRM I have found is with iTMS, so I just don't use it or buy music. I did buy a few TV episodes from iTMS, however when I couldn't burn them to DVD to watch on my big TV, I stopped that as well. OS X is just far better than anything from MS. I get the juicy *nix that I love and a very good user experience for me as well as an easy to use experience for my wife.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Informative)
Amazon Software Bestsellers (January 29 12:45 PM ET)
2 Microsoft Office Home and Student 2007
4 Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Upgrade
5 Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Upgrade
12 Microsoft Office Professional 2007 Upgrade
13 Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Full Version
14 Microsoft Office Student and Teacher Edition 2003
15 Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Full Version
Microsoft has twenty titles in the top fifty.
I'd say these numbers suggest that Vista is going to do just fine in the domestic consumer market.
Parent
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Funny)
Amazon Software Bestsellers (January 29 12:45 PM ET)
2 Microsoft Office Home and Student 2007
4 Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Upgrade
5 Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Upgrade
12 Microsoft Office Professional 2007 Upgrade
13 Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Full Version
14 Microsoft Office Student and Teacher Edition 2003
15 Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Full Version
Microsoft has twenty titles in the top fifty.
I'd say these numbers suggest that Vista is going to do just fine in the domestic consumer market.
SHhhhhh. This is Slashdot, there's no place for money talk here. The POINT is that everyone will NOT buy it and only HATE it. I'll stick with BeOS thank you.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It surprised me to see Ultimate Vista so high on the charts.
It suggests that the price and the hardware requirements for Vista are not the barriers some geeks believe. It suggests that the discounted pricing on Vista Premium for Vista Ultimate purchasers was dead on target.
It suggests that buyers have nothing in common with the Geek, an entirely diffe
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Interesting)
According to Microsoft's EULA: "You may not work around any technical limitations in the software"
I think they just helped you with your decision.
Parent
Futile petitions aside (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Futile petitions aside (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
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Re:Futile petitions aside (Score:5, Funny)
"You shouldn't be using Vista, because it won't let you watch porn you downloaded from the Internet for free. It has this thing called DRM which will turn the good good parts to mosaic. We technical people call this downsampling. Oh, and it may even connect to Microsoft or the police and tell them what you're watching."
Parent
Re:Futile petitions aside (Score:5, Insightful)
But, if Vista pisses off businesses, then MS has a real problem on their hands. Businesses are already reluctant to change. They're definitely going to reject Vista if it makes them less productive. At least I'm hoping that's how it would turn out.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If MS sends out the word that their new OS is a must-have, these people will only be held b
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
DingDingDingDing! (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The point of protesting is to make your voice heard. If you get enough people involved, then word spreads about the problem. While the things you mention would be somewhat effective, the best predictor of effectiveness is probably the amount of people you can ge
Re:Futile petitions aside (Score:5, Interesting)
Not to buy. Have not given MS a dime since 1995.
Explain to friends and workplaces. I cannot recommend MS products over the alternatives. With my friends, I clearly tell them if they are asking my advice, my answer is to buy a Mac. None to date have taken my advice, and they still ask me about "Windows problems" when I politely told them that I don't do windows and that I could not help them with windows problems upfront. Workplaces. They seem to be MS dependant despite years of suggestions to change.
Refund? The principle of the thing is worth more than the money, and for most people, neither is that important to them.
All I can say is that this petition is a day late and a dollar short, but although I have fixed my microsoft problem. I still know plenty of people that don't care or just won't change from the MS problem.
I am _not_ brand loyal/disloyal. I treat all things as generic tools and will use what is best for the job at the current time, and things come and go on my shitlist, and I don't hold a permanant grudge until the company has gone too far. To date, only two companies have made my permanant shitlist, and I have brought one of them to court as well, and neither are Microsoft.
Macs were on my offlist before OS X, but they have seen the light
Parent
Re:Futile petitions aside (Score:4, Interesting)
The cost, to Microsoft, of the Refund is not just a lost sale. It's also the time and money that went into licensing and de-licensing that copy, and returning the money. It's not cheap for them.
There's also the fact that everyone who does this can now tell everyone they know that they got their money back for their unused copy of Windows. Eventually, it'll stick in peoples' heads that they aren't stuck with Windows.
It also gives you the ability to defuse anyone who says 'Yeah, but I've already paid for it, so I might as well use it.' If you haven't actually received the refund, they'll say it's like a rebate and you won't get it.
Parent
Petitions are not futile... (Score:4, Informative)
Our existing petitions have already had an important effect, letting politicians know that there are more constituencies in this issue than the incumbent industry associations. Our new petition tries to move away from the myths that DRM is about "content control" when in fact it is about "hardware control". This "hardware control" impacts your usage of hardware you own, regardless of whether you are using "premium content" or not.
This is also not a Microsoft and/or Apple issue, as these bad laws impact all users of technology whether or not they are ever a customer of Microsoft or Apple.
http://www.digital-copyright.ca/petition/ict/ [digital-copyright.ca]
"THEREFORE, your petitioners call upon Parliament to prohibit the application of a technical protection measure to a device without the informed consent of the owner of the device, and to prohibit the conditioning of the supply of content to the purchase or use of a device which has a technical measure applied to it. We further call upon Parliament to recognise the right of citizens to personally control their own communication devices, and to choose software based on their own personal criteria."
Parent
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An internet petition, of all things? (Score:3, Insightful)
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EULA's and click thru's (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The only way around it is to remove bits of the software, like Windows Defender (sounds like a misnomer, more like "MS Monopoly Ensurer" to me) which are technically forbidden by the EULA. Now, recall that most that install this won't be savvy enough to d
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The article states:
For greater certainty, the terms and conditions remove any doubt about who is in control by providing that "this agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights." For those users frustrated by the software's limitations, Microsoft cautions that "you may not work around any technical limitations in the software."
If this really is in the license (I don't know) can it possibly be binding? For that matter, can AN
Re:EULA's and click thru's (Score:5, Informative)
The concept is referred to as a "contract of adhesion," where insofar as the terms in the contract are those that can be reasonably expected to be found in similar contracts for similar purpose, the contract is considered binding whether or not a "meeting of the minds" has occurred over the material details of the contract. I actually don't like contracts of adhesion at all, and wish they didn't exist. But they do.
In many states, and I believe now in at least one federal appellate district, EULA's have been ruled to be contracts of adhesion. You can imagine my alarm. So what I'm telling you is that that EULA you didn't read is likely legal. Evil, but legal.
C//
Parent
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Re:EULA's and click thru's (Score:5, Informative)
In order to have a contract you need:
1) Offer
2) Acceptance
3) Consideration
4) Intention
5) Capacity to contract
Of most interesting is consideration. When you purchase an item from a store there's consideration. I offer my $5 for your pack of cigarettes. Their needs to be consideration on both sides to have a contract.
What I find interesting is that there is no consideration in a EULA; it's one sided. You've already paid for the license, and now you're being asked to agree to the terms after the contract has been made. At no point has any more consideration happened on your part.
Agreeing to an EULA IMO is like making a promise. If I promise someone a trip to Vegas for nothing in return, there is no contract, just a promise and it's unenforceable. I'm quite surprised no one has challenged an EULA under contract law asking where the consideration is when you agree to the therms? Simply agreeing to terms of usage without offering up any consideration is quite interesting because the money is paid to the store, and the store then sends money to the manufacturer.
Of course the problem lies in convincing a judge that a click-through agreement after a contract has been made is not binding, and who wants to battle Micro$oft? I for one don't.
Parent
Still missing some features. (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Old and busted: Bill Gates New hotness: Steve Jobs (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Old and busted: Bill Gates New hotness: Steve J (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Old and busted: Bill Gates New hotness: Steve J (Score:5, Insightful)
Am I the only one who is getting tired of reading all kinds of "Microsoft DRM is evil!" posts, and then seeing a post the very next day talking about how awesome Apple is? One company is buckling to industry pressure and including DRM, the other has a fricking Trusted Platform Module in every new computer it makes. The double standard is infuriating.
So if I buy a mac, how does the DRM affect me? Do I have to worry about my computer becoming unusable if I change hardware? Do I have to worry about re-registering? Do I have to worry about registering in the first place? The answers are, of course, no, no, and no. So is there a chance Apple will delete software off of my computer without my permission as MS's built in security will? No. So what, exactly, is the issue? There is a chip with an encryption key on it in the box? Okay, so why should I care? I'm a pragmatist. If my files were being DRM'd so I could not move to something else or if Apple was restricting me in any way, maybe I'd care. Apple does put DRM on their music files, they sell, but I generally don't buy from them. I did buy a few songs once that I could not find elsewhere, but I legally stripped the DRM off with a freeware program and backed them up as a regular audio CD with no DRM. What's the problem?
I use Windows and OS X and Linux on the desktop. Currently I favor OS X because it gives me the best feature set for general tasks. If Apple starts implementing DRM in such a way as to inconvenience me, I'll migrate to something else. I'm not going to do so, however, unless the DRM does inconvenience me. I'm not being shortsighted either. Any use that prevents me from being able to move platforms would probably tip the balance away from Apple, as I value portability.
The only real restriction I've seen Apple implement with encryption is locking their software to their hardware (any Apple hardware not a specific machine). Since Apple only licenses their software to run on their platform the only people this inconveniences are people who plan to use the software but break the license, and that doesn't leave a lot of room for complaint. Would I prefer it if OS X would run on any hardware? Sure, it would be a great feature. The problem is Apple's main product would directly compete with an abusive monopoly, and that means it would die and we would not get to use it anymore. The traditional strategy for dealing with such a monopoly is to build a separate vertical chain of supply, which Apple has done. Breaking that chain before MS is stopped from their criminal monopoly abuse is not a real option for Apple, so I don't blame them at all for only licensing their OS for their hardware.
Parent
Rubbish (Score:3, Informative)
So if I buy a mac, how does the DRM affect me? Do I have to worry about my computer becoming unusable if I change hardware? Do I have to worry about re-registering? Do I have to worry about registering in the first place? The answers are, of course, no, no, and no.
Can you play high definition DRMed content on your mac? No, no, and no. Do you ever need to replace hardware on a Mac to the extent that you might break Vista's restrictions? No. This just isn't a fair comparison, as the parent poster said, Macs are by their very nature a limited platform. They don't have to activate your install or check that the hardware is the same because they know that you must be running it on hardware at least mostly purchased from them. There's no reason to bring software lock in l
Where's the buzz? (Score:5, Insightful)
A search on Google News (UK) brings up loads of articles with negative titles "Buying Vista? Get a guarantee", "Windows Vista: Where Is The Wow?", "Windows Vista: the best reason to buy a Mac?", "Windows Vista disappoints, so get a Mac". And that's just in the first half of the results.
It really is quite amazing for a product that Microsoft has spend billions and many years to develop.
Of course the sad thing is that, because of its strangle hold on the market, it will still make billions and will be able to declare the launch a success.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It's all about marketing (Score:3, Funny)
Tried to open Office 2007 and got a message about a license key and if I wanted to enter it. I clicked "No," and the entire screen went black and wouldn't come back up.
I shook my head and laughed as I walked away.
edit (Score:3, Informative)
I meant to explain that I was browsing at Best Buy and tried out their main display computer running Vista. It was set up at the end of an aisle with signs and speakers proclaiming what a great step up Vista was.
I guess I need a marketing department of my own to vet my posts before I click submit.
"you may not work around..." Stunning! (Score:5, Interesting)
That's absolutely stunning. I wonder exactly how broadly that could be interpreted?
If I buy any kind of third-party utility... antivirus software, backup software, a defragmenter... isn't that "working around" technical limiations in the software Microsoft provides? Isn't Firefox arguable a "workaround" for technical limitations in Internet Explorer?
It's about time to stop calling it a "personal computer" and start calling it a "Microsoft corporate computer."
Anyone else find it amusing... (Score:3, Funny)
...that the petition is the PITR petition?
I wonder how much user freedom Pitr would want people to have once he takes over Google...
But what about performance? (Score:4, Informative)
The options (Score:5, Insightful)
Those are the options. And they all suck.
This is an opportunity for somebody. Probably somebody in China.
My vist experiance (Score:4, Interesting)
I loaded it on a twin dual core with 4 gig of ram.
It booted slower than 2k pro
It would not allow me to install sybase (vista said it was a virus)
I could not run Office 2000 on it. I would just crash if it opened at all
I was unable to load my custom written backup software, it did not have a valid certificate
( i wrote the software )
I unloaded vista and put 2k back on it
Protecting tangible technology property rights doe (Score:3, Interesting)
Speaking to a group of copyright holders about this issue, Stewart Baker, Department of Homeland Security's assistant secretary for policy, said, "It's very important to remember that it's your intellectual property -- it's not your computer. And in the pursuit of protection of intellectual property, it's important not to defeat or undermine the security measures that people need to adopt in these days."
Nothing in this petition diminishes the legitimate rights o