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"Very Severe Hole" In Vista UAC Design
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Feb 13, 2007 04:07 PM
from the she-said-he-said dept.
from the she-said-he-said dept.
Cuts and bruises writes "Hacker Joanna Rutkowska has flagged a "very severe hole" in the design of Windows Vista's User Account Controls (UAC) feature. The issue is that Vista automatically assumes that all setup programs (application installers) should be run with administrator privileges — and gives the user no option to let them run without elevated privileges. This means that a freeware Tetris installer would be allowed to load kernel drivers. Microsoft's Mark Russinovich acknowledges the risk factor but says it was a 'design choice' to balance security with ease of use."
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An even bigger hole... (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a much, much bigger hole than any programmer could possibly exploit: The annoyance factor.
Last night, I restored my old XP partition after figuring I'd give Vista a shot for just a couple of days. You know, just to experience it myself instead of taking other people's word for what it's like.
The theme of Vista seems to be simple: Annoy the hell out of he end user. You want to run an application, is that okay? You want to copy a file, is that okay? You want to change your desktop background, is that okay? You want to copy text from IE7, is that okay? You want to delete an old text file, is that okay? You want to paste text into a form field in IE7, is that okay? The list goes on and on. Almost every action in Vista is actually compose of two separate actions: the one you want to do, and the confirmation to do it.
After getting Windows Vista installed, I took an hour or so to configure my personal settings and install a couple of applications. I had to acknowledge somewhere between 50 and 100 dialog boxes asking me if it was okay to do what I was doing. No, I'm not exaggerating.
Now, I'm a very experienced computer user, and I've worked for over a decade supporting PCs, servers, networks, and so on. Yes, I know, I could disable UAC if I want to, but that kind of defeats the point of Vista's so-called beefed up security.
Even I became so numb to clicking OK in two short days that I wouldn't think twice about it. You want to move that shortcut on your start menu, is that okay? You want to install the Pwnzjoo virus, is that okay? You want to send your bank account numbers to Nigeria, is that okay? Yes, yes, yes, dammit!
If Microsoft wants to really get serious about security, they have to get it through their heads that it's not about locking everything down and popping up prompt after prompt after prompt to the user. It's about being smart, letting the user do normal things without interference or interruption, and having the level of alerts match the danger of what's being done.
As it is, Vista cries wolf so often that when the real wolves show up, I'd be surprised if any user, newbie or guru, listens.
Re:An even bigger hole... (Score:5, Funny)
no doubt, thats why Dell is marketing its harware for Vista as great for "booting the OS, w/o running apps or games [googlepages.com]" (link via this [dell.com])
Since when did booting an OS become a "feature" of the OS?
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Re:An even bigger hole... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:An even bigger hole... (Score:5, Funny)
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Swinging a Blunt Object (Score:5, Insightful)
"What? We put the thingy in. It's not our fault if idiotsticks turns it off because he's too lazy to take security seriously."
This is a way to let themselves off the hook, escalating user error to the root of all evil instead of, say, a hopelessly fractured and bloated development bureaucracy overseen by demented lizard people. This is a response to the criticisms about Windows having a default configuration more favourable to trojans than users, so they can now claim that the default configuration is solid. You changed a setting? The buck stops at you, sucker.
Maybe Microsoft needs someone with some insight into user behaviour and interface psychology on staff. I hear Steve Jobs has a reasonable hourly rate. (/me ducks)
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Re:Swinging a Blunt Object (Score:5, Interesting)
I know, I know, it is still not as good as *nix security, and there are lots of programs that need admin privileges to run properly (fewer these days, though), but it isn't that bad.
Take care
-mat
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Re:Swinging a Blunt Object (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, if any *nix software required the user to be root to run, we would string the developers up alongside the guy who thought Clippy would be a good idea.
Why should it be any different for third-party applications requiring Administrator privileges to run on Windows?
Microsoft is so busy catering to the third party developers in order to maintain their lock-in, that they forgot how to put their foot down on truly important software engineering issues, like security. Locking down XP to an almost *nix-like state can be done. There are read/write/execute permissions available on every directory, drive letter, and registry key, and Windows supports the "home directory sandbox" model. After all, a virus in *nix could conceivably blow away a user directory, but unless it's exploiting a buffer overflow or other coding error hole, it can't take down the system. The same is possible in Windows, but not available by default to your average Dell user.
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Steve is that you? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:An even bigger hole... (Score:5, Funny)
One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
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Re:An even bigger hole... (Score:5, Funny)
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So that's where clippy went! (Score:5, Interesting)
This link allegedly tells you how to turn the questions off [microsoft.com], but unfortunately I can understand the words, even most of the sentences, but the whole thing is just dreadful, "As a result, IT departments often cannot gauge the holistic health and security of their environments." Can anyone help?
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Re:An even bigger hole... (Score:5, Insightful)
Mac has issued a salutation. Allow or deny? Comedy gold, and yet Apple hit the nail on the head.
My expectation is that at least 50% of Windows Vista consumers will turn UAC off entirely, and the remaining 50% will ignore it (psychologically disable it) to the point that it may as well be disabled - especially applies in the enterprise computing world where Joe won't be allowed to turn it off, but still wants to do whatever he wants. Meaning that in the default configuration of users as hobbled admins, every Vista user is then an admin. Just like they are in XP. Really validates 5 years of hard work on security.
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The cause of your problems and the solution (Score:5, Informative)
NTFS partitions NOT created by Vista will cause these prompts for file operations on them, because you do not have access to them. #1: Your XP user account does but it is not recognized by Vista. #2: Administrators permissions is only granted after a UAC prompt. #3: Users permissions are normally low. Hence the need to prompt you to get the proper permissions.
Fortunately this is easy to fix. Simply go into the security settings in the property pages of a folder (or the whole drive if you wish) and add your personal account to the access list with full control. This will eliminate the prompts. Alternately on a multi-user computer you can adjust the permissions of the Users group for the same effect.
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Apple got it right (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Drag application folder where ever you want it
2. If application does need to install a control panel, kext, or any other system file, then you can create an installer. When the installer tries to install the files that need the elevated permissions, it then tells you what it is trying to do and asks for an admin user/password
How is that hard to grasp at MS? Assuming everything needs admin permissions is just insane, and insisting it isn't a security hole and is a "design choice" is just fucking retarded.
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Re:Apple got it right (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Apple got it right (Score:5, Informative)
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It's not the software. (Score:5, Informative)
That's the thing. Most of the prompts I was getting was not from software trying to do stuff, it was from normal operating system operations such as copying/moving/renaming/deleting files. Not OS files, but my own documents in my user directory. Not programmatically, but from me personally interacting with Explorer to manage my data. Stuff like changing the layout of my Start menu. Stuff like changing my desktop background. Stuff like copying a line of text from a web page in IE7 to paste in a document.
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Interesting)
Start, typed in regedit enter.
Vista:Are you sure you want to run this program?
Me: Yes. I went OUT of my way, hit start, run and typed in the pogram name I wanted. Thanks for checking though. (click)
Edit the registry, close it. That was easy.
double clicked on setup. Stupid shield on my icon, what does that mean?
Vista: are you sure you want to run this? it's a program, you know.
Me: Oh that must be what the shield is for. Vista feels like it should protect me from software!
Vista: This is from AMD. Do you trust AMD?
Me: yes, they pay me. I trust them. (click)
Install......that was easy.
Oops, there's a problem. Well, let's grab the correct file from the build server and copy it over
Open my computer, go to program files
Vista: Are you sure you want to go there?
Me:Yes (click)
open up the application folder
drag a file from a network share to the application folder....
Vista: Are you sure you want to overwrite this file?
Me: Yes (click)
Vista:A program wants to write to the Program Files folder. Is this ok?
Me: Yes (click)
Vista:You are trying to copy from a network share to the program files folder. This isn't allowed. Hit ok.
Me: (Pounds head) (click)
Drag to Desktop.
Drag from desktop to application folder.
Vista:
Are you sure you want to overwrite this file?
me: for the love of god yes
Vista:A program wants to write to the Program Files folder. Is this ok?
Me: Die.Die.Die.Die.
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Funny)
*shudder*
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Funny)
He did warn us that if we struck him down he would become more powerful than ever.
Maybe we should have listened.
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Interesting)
The sad thing is that I've seen Clippy like once or twice years ago, and that is what I thought this dialog reminded me of, but worse because from what I remember Clippy would start yelling at you when you did anything, and you could just tell him to go away, but now its worse because the operating system blocks and asks you to click a bozo box every time you do anything?
* smashes head on desk *
Let me be clear, I don't use MS software because it is not designed for a computer professional like myself. To be honest, I don't know who its designed for, or if its even designed at all.
The first time I heard Windows was having this UAC thing, I knew that it would suck as only Microsoft could make it suck. I knew it would annoy the hell out of the user so bad that it would do one of two things. 1) annoy them to the point that they just turn it off (I understand this is allowed in Vista) 2) annoy the user and they don't turn it off, they just bend over and take it, and the 1 out of a million clicks when your supposed to say No, you click Yes because that is what you ALWAYS HAVE TO DO TO GET ANYTHING DONE.
* smashes head on desk again *
Microsoft can't even rip off existing security models that work like the elevated priveledges in OS X. Microsoft embarasses me as a computer professional, and I don't even use their stuff, because people associate MS with computers.
Thanks for the grandparent post for sharing their experience, and thank you Apple, Linux, and Sun for making computers usable.
Oh, and I almost forgot.
Vista automatically assumes that all setup programs (application installers) should be run with administrator privileges -- and gives the user no option to let them run without elevated privileges.
Isn't this the case where 99.9% of the time YOU WANT TO BE ASKED? Didn't Microsoft invent the term "driveby install"?
* smashes head on desk again *
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Interesting)
Wow, I had never heard anyone said it so succinctly, but that's it, baby. I always felt an unrecognized sense of shame for the state of computers today, and I never quite realized why. This is it. Things should be *soooo* much further along today, if it weren't for the predatory monopolistic effects of MS. Throughout so much of the short PC history, there were rays of sunshine (Quarterdeck's multitasking DOS thing, many IP stacks, etc., etc), that were quashed by their monopoly. To see this happen, and realize their mediocracy, and not have done anything about it, definitely brings a sense of shame.
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't want to wonder if my computer is tattling on me if I'm downloading an mp3 without DRM or watching a copy of a video that a colleague gave me. I don't want to think my computer is a rat or a punk. I don't want to think my computer will rebel if I run a perfectly legal program like Alcohol or rip.net or want to install the k-lite mega codec pack.
DirectX10? It's going to take more than DirectX10 for me to accept my computer as a spy in my home.
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Interesting)
Vista:Are you sure you want to run this program?
Of course! It's got +X set!
Vista: are you sure you want to run this? it's a program, you know.
Ditto.
Vista: This is from AMD. Do you trust AMD?
Redundant. If I didn't trust them, I wouldn't have set +X.
Vista: Are you sure you want to go there?
Since Program Files shouldn't be world writable, this should prompt you for the administrator password. This authoriation should then be cached for Explorer.exe.
Vista: Are you sure you want to overwrite this file?
I'll let this slide, because even 'cp' prompts for that.
Vista:A program wants to write to the Program Files folder. Is this ok?
Should've grabbed cached authorization for Explorer.exe. Unless Explorer.exe was compromised in the 30 seconds between this action and the previous one, no security is lost here.
Vista:You are trying to copy from a network share to the program files folder. This isn't allowed. Hit ok.
That's just idiotic.
Are you sure you want to overwrite this file?
Again, I'd let it slide depending on preference.
Vista:A program wants to write to the Program Files folder. Is this ok?
Cached authorization again.
It's really not that hard. UNIX/sudo got this right god knows how long ago. Apple did the right thing and just copied the sudo mechanism wholesale. Microsoft should to.
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Informative)
Apple copied sudo's idea of "least required privileges" as the basis of its GUI security model, but I don't know if sudo was the first example of LRP. Maybe it was. But the GUI security model is definitely more complex than sudo, and apparently, it's a hell of a lot better than what Microsoft came up with for Vista. Using heuristics to identify which executables should get admin rights just seems like a horrendously stupid idea. Microsoft should've put its foot down on this one and forced developers of installer applications to properly request credentials. But they chose backwards-compatibility, as always, and now they're basically guessing who needs admin rights and who doesn't.
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Informative)
Whatever. For starters, Apple didn't just steal from Unix, they build their OS on top of Unix. And you can't read any article on OSX around here without a dozen posts pointing that out, so the "no one will mention" part is just crap. Of course Apple never hid the fact that they were "stealing" Unix by building their OS on top of BSD. The whole point being to start with a solid OS with all these great Unixy concepts built in and add their Apply interface on top. Whereas when Microsoft steals these features after another five years, they'll act like they were struck by inspiration out of the blue and done something that nobody's done before, like they have with every other idea they've stolen. So the "did the same thing" part is crap too.
It may be fun and easy to take a poke at the "/. doublestandard", but it only reveals that you don't understand that it isn't a double standard at all. Microsoft has a bad rep for a reason among those who have been paying attention, and hey, maybe you don't know or understand why but don't think Apple would get a pass if they truly did the same things Microsoft does.
Next up: Why viewing Halliburton in a harsher light than Bob's General Contracting is also not an unfair double standard.
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Interesting)
This is an annoyance for an end user but a major pain in the neck for software. I develop software that does not run elevated that accesses a remote file and the passes the file path into an out-of-process server that is running elevated. We either had to make the server no longer run elevated or prompt the user for credentials they already used to log into the machine (and which they don't think they need because they can get to the files just fine themselves) and then pass these credentials to the server with the path. Fortunately our architecture allowed us to have our server to not run elevated and get some other server to do the tasks that needed to be done elevated.
Vista is really a pain in the neck. What's funny about it is that I was at a Vista iterop event at Microsoft last November (yes I sometimes have to fraternize with the enemy) and every MS developer I worked with had to tell me how much they loved working on Vista and that they had been using Vista on their development machines for months. I asked them if they had disabled UAC and they said "no, why would you want to do that?" I then asked them if it wasn't annoying to be prompted all the time and they said "no." I can only assume that they must have been brainwashed.
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Insightful)
Regardless, I think that a Windows version of sudo is a very good step. They just should have spent more time working on permissions so that it didn't trigger so much (assuming that what the posters' have said is accurate). The setup thing in TFA is kinda stupid, but installers almost always write to Program Files in Windows, and rarely have a per-user installation method like in Linux. A better solution would have been to try and encourage installers to have a per-user installation method.
Anyways, it may be that I'm just lucky that I haven't had a lot of problems with UAC. But I haven't had to go registry diving or modify any system directories in Vista yet, so theres that too.
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Insightful)
No, people aren't bitching about them doing something, they're bitching about them doing something WRONG. Linux and Mac's have a similar approach to this problem, but their solution (sudo) is not annoying, so it actually works. All Microsoft had to do was copy that solution to improve security, instead they came up with their own and made it obtrusive in the process.
I have yet to experience these supposed headaches with Vista yet, the only time that shield pops up is when I run a program that is potentially harmful to my computer
Although I also have not seen these prompts when copying text, I have seen them in plenty of places aside from installing programs. Places that make absolutely no sense, such as storing wireless settings. There is no reason that action should require admin privileges and thus a prompt.
How many story's were posted about programs looking like they came from an official place only to release a trojan? sure you get a program from download.com and figure it's safe but after installing a program it suddenly fucks up your PC, with Vista it will actually ask if you trust it let you know where it came from the works.
And how would that help? You download a program from somewhere, and double click to install it. Whether it is a trojan or not, Windows is going to ask you for permission. Since you downloaded it, you obviously think it is not a trojan, so you would press Ok on the permissions dialog. Turns out it is a trojan, and your system is compromised. A permission dialog does nothing to protect you here.
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Insightful)
Higher up in the thread someone mentions what happens when you copy a file to a folder in Program Files. Because Program Files folders are protected you need elevated permissions to do that. The right thing to do is say that it requires elevated permissions, ask if you want to do it, then do it. But in some cases it asks you 3 times for one file (do you want to copy, do you want to elevate, do you want to overwrite, do you want to be admin, do you need help with writing your letter). Why can't they give you one box that says, "The file already exists and this copy requires administrator rights, do you want to allow this?", then when you say OK, you are done. Why, why, why can't they do this, are they short of money?
And Mac and Linux do exactly the same thing, they ask your permission to do admin tasks, except they got the details right so they don't irritate the user to death. A guarantee people are just going to shut off UAC because it's annoying, defeating the whole purpose.
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Re:It's not the software. (Score:5, Informative)
For repeated, but seperate operations (like installing a lot of applications when you're setting up your machine), you can disable UAC. This is basically the same thing as su root if your account is an admin account. Once you're done, re-enable it. It's really not that hard.
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Re:An even bigger hole... (Score:5, Insightful)
There have also been a number of times in my career where I have had to use development software written by companies that either went out of business, or stopped supporting that software. What then?
What Apple understands and Microsoft does not is that it is not my job to make the OS work better. It is the OS's job to make my life easier.
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Re:An even bigger hole... (Score:5, Informative)
UAC prompt opens in separate logical desktop. Applications from main desktop can not send windows messages to it which means malware will be unable to click ok itself.
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Re:An even bigger hole... (Score:5, Informative)
You mean like modifying files that you don't have ownership of?
UAC does not, and has never, prompted users when they move files that they have permissions to. It does, however, prompt when you move files that are in the common desktop or in the common start menu folders.
Clearly, you don't understand anything about how Windows works. Windows has had access control lists practically everywhere in the OS since Windows NT.
Oh, and the ACLs in Windows are far, far more "fine-grained" than the usable-but-primitive permission bits in Linux.
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Another approach. (Score:5, Funny)
Why not just let the user copy the application bundle to wherever they have write permissions? That application then executes with the privileges of the user that invokes it. If only there was a platform that offered such a simple an effective solution.
Re:Another approach. (Score:5, Informative)
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Further proof (Score:5, Insightful)
When are they finally gonna give up this retarded backward-compatibility-at-all-costs mindset and *really* rewrite Windows from the ground up? Microsoft owns Virtual PC for Christ's sake, so it's not like they couldn't include a sandboxed "classic" Windows for app compatibility for a few years.
The one thing Apple did that Microsoft really ought to copy, they don't. Figures.
What? (Score:5, Interesting)
Balancing Security with Ease of use (Score:5, Funny)
DOOM: History repeats itself (Score:5, Funny)
I guess MS didn't learn anything from id.
Troubling ... (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, I personally very much liked the Vista user experience (I'm back to XP for now, but I had the beta and RC1). But after the first couple of days, I turned off UAC (and besides, I like to manage my security myself). It did nothing but ask me if I wanted to do what I was doing. Like another early poster here, I almost immediately reverted to clicking any damn OK button I saw. And God knows, I turned the sound off almost immediately. Moreover, I turned it off because it seemed like a talented Bad Guy would simply bury his Evil Code in something that seemed benign, and Joe User would just click through it. But all of that has been covered at great length in these hallowed halls already.
My point is still this: the bad guys are out there now. That's just reality. Telling people not to worry and to go back to sleep doesn't serve anyone anymore. I don't think power user knowledge is necessary for the average person, but frank awareness of basic online safety puts it in the hands of the individual user to some extent, and eases some of the strain for the OS designers/engineers. Because while MS has made some dumb and dangerous mistakes in the past, I still think of it this way: when you're designing any piece of software, you can't completely anticipate the security issues that will come up a year down the road, and you can't reduce how hard a user will work to circumvent your attempts to protect them, no matter how inobtrusive they may be.
I'm not defending MS for its past mistakes, oversights, poor execution, and so on, but I do think people need to pony up a little more energy to protect themselves. I'm no security expert, but it just seems like responsible living to me.
People who complain about UAC don't understand UAC (Score:5, Insightful)
VMWare 6, for example, constantly elevates on Vista. What do you want to bet that VMWare 7 won't?
Well behaved programs elevate only when and where they have to. Even if 50% of Vista users turn UAC off, that's still 50% of your client base who is being constantly bombarded by elevation dialogs. The solution? Write your software so it doesn't need to elevate.
As for the article - installers pretty much have to elevate. This is true on Windows and with Linux packages (when was the last time you ran apt-get without using sudo or running as root?). Some have pointed out that you can install most packages in Linux to be specific to your user account, using special flags. This, of course, is possible in Vista as well, if MSI packages are used.
Note that I do agree that it's a problem that you can't override UAC detection. There needs to be a "don't run as administrator" option.
Re:So what's new? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, but at least in the RPM case, a regular unprivileged user cannot cause an untrusted program to run with kernel-level permissions. In Linux, that user would have to enter a privileged password (for sudo or root login). On Vista, a regular user who has no admin rights can choose to execute an installer program with kernel privileges.
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You ought to watch those irrational beliefs . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
rpm itself doesn't require root authority, and if everything you intend to do with rpm happens in directories to which you have write authority, rpm will work just fine.
By default, rpm does use directories (notably, in /var) which will require running with root authority; but this can be overridden with command line switches (say, to install an rpm which will only be used by you).
RTFM.
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Re:Tetris is a brand name (Score:5, Funny)
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