Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

RIAA's 'Expert' Witness Testimony Now Online

Posted by Zonk on Sat Mar 03, 2007 08:30 PM
from the hole-in-the-argument dept.
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The online community now has an opportunity to see the fruits of its labor. Back in December, the Slashdot ('What Questions Would You Ask an RIAA Expert?') and Groklaw ('Another Lawyer Would Like to Pick Your Brain, Please') communities were asked for their input on possible questions to pose to the RIAA's 'expert'. Dr. Doug Jacobson of Iowa State University, was scheduled to be deposed in February in UMG v. Lindor, for the first time in any RIAA case. Ms. Lindor's lawyers were flooded with about 1400 responses. The deposition of Dr. Jacobson went forward on February 23, 2007, and the transcript is now available online (pdf) (ascii). Ray Beckerman, one of Ms. Lindor's attorneys, had this comment: 'We are deeply grateful to the community for reviewing our request, for giving us thoughts and ideas, and for reviewing other readers' responses. Now I ask the tech community to review this all-important transcript, and bear witness to the shoddy investigation and junk science upon which the RIAA has based its litigation war against the people. The computer scientists among you will be astounded that the RIAA has been permitted to burden our court system with cases based upon such arrant and careless nonsense.'"
+ -
story

Related Stories

[+] Ask Slashdot: What Questions Would You Ask An RIAA 'Expert'? 616 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer asks: "In UMG v. Lindor, the RIAA has submitted an 'expert' report (pdf) and 26-page curriculum vitae (pdf), prepared by Dr. Doug Jacobson of Iowa State University who is the RIAA's expert witness in all of its cases against consumers, relating to alleged copyright infringement by means of a shared files folder on Kazaa, and supposed analysis of the hard drive of a computer in Ms. Lindor's apartment. The RIAA's 'experts' have been shut down in the Netherlands and Canada, having been shown by Prof. Sips and Dr. Pouwelse of Delft University's Parallel and Distributed Systems research group (pdf) to have failed to do their homework, but are still operating in the USA. The materials were submitted in connection with a motion to compel Ms. Lindor's son, who lives 4 miles away from her, to turn over his computer and music listening devices to the RIAA. Both Ms. Lindor's attorney (pdf) and Ms. Lindor's son's attorney (pdf) have objected to the introduction of these materials, but Dr. Jacobson's document production and deposition are scheduled for January and February, and we would love to get the tech community's ideas for questions to ask, and in general your reactions, thoughts, opinions, information, and any other input you can share with us. (In case you haven't guessed, we are the attorneys for Ms. Lindor.)"
[+] News: RIAA Wants To Throw In the Towel On 3-Year-Old Case 171 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "After three years of pursuing a home health aide in Brooklyn who has never even used a computer, the RIAA has announced it's ready to throw in the towel. Only thing; it wants the dismissal to be 'without prejudice' so it won't be liable for attorney's fees. The courts have been saying that where a copyright plaintiff gives up, the defendant is presumptively entitled to an attorney's fee award. So, Ms. Lindor says 'no way.' She wants the dismissal to be 'with prejudice,' and she wants her attorney's fees." We've been discussing this case and Ms. Lindor's fight against the RIAA for quite some time.
[+] Your Rights Online: RIAA Lawyer Jumps Ship 181 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The RIAA's top litigation lawyer, who has been personally leading the RIAA's litigation campaign for the past several years, Richard Gabriel, will be leaving his law practice after getting a job as a state court judge for a 2-year term in Colorado. What this will mean to the RIAA's litigation machine is anyone's guess. Mr. Gabriel has personally argued all of the RIAA's main cases, including Elektra v. Barker, Atlantic v. Howell, Atlantic v. Brennan, Capitol v. Foster, Atlantic v. Andersen, UMG v. Lindor, and London-Sire v. Doe 1, and personally tried the Capitol v. Thomas case, the only RIAA case that has ever gone to trial. He was working directly under the supervision of the RIAA's mysterious 'representative' Matthew Oppenheim."
[+] News: RIAA Expert Witness Called "Borderline Incompetent" 170 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "Prof. Johan Pouwelse of Delft University — one of the world's foremost experts on the science of P2P file sharing and the very same Prof. Pouwelse who stopped the RIAA's Netherlands counterpart in its tracks back in 2005 — has submitted an expert witness report characterizing the work of the RIAA's expert, Dr. Doug Jacobson, as 'borderline incompetence.' The report (PDF), filed in UMG v. Lindor, pointed out, among other things, that the steps needed to be taken in a copyright infringement investigation were not taken, that Jacobson's work lacked 'in-depth analysis' and 'proper scientific scrutiny,' that Jacobson's reports were 'factually erroneous,' and that they were contradicted by his own deposition testimony. This is the first expert witness report of which we are aware since the Free Software Foundation announced that it would be coming to the aid of RIAA defendants."
[+] News: RIAA's Watchdog Affidavits For Your Reading Pleasure 22 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "MediaSentry, in an attempt to stonewall discovery in UMG v. Lindor, has turned over nothing other than a collection, apparently a complete collection, of its publicly filed affidavits. However, these do make interesting reading indeed, and as comments started trickling in on my blog, I realized that for the technically minded among you there are probably a number of good laughs in these materials. So in keeping with the Slashdot community's analysis of the RIAA's not very expert, 'expert' witness, I thought you might like to take a shot at its not very factual, 'fact' witness."
[+] News: Has RIAA Abandoned the 'Making Available' Defense? 125 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The RIAA's standard complaint (pdf) was thrown out last month by a federal judge in California as speculation in Interscope v. Rodriguez. Interestingly, the RIAA's amended complaint (pdf), filed six days later, abandoned altogether the RIAA's 'making available' argument. (Whereby making files available at all for download is infringement.) It first formulated that defense against a dismissal motion in Elektra v. Barker. This raises a number of questions: Is the RIAA is going to stick to this new form of complaint in future cases? Will they get into a different kind of trouble for some of its their new allegations, such as the contention that the investigator "detected an individual" (contradicting the testimony of the RIAA's own expert witness)? And finally, what tack will defendants' lawyers take (this was one lawyer's suggestion)?"
[+] News: Lindor Attacks Record Company Copyright-Pooling 136 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "Back in March, 2006, Marie Lindor called the record companies suing her a collusive cartel, and their joint agreement to pool their copyrights "copyright misuse" (pdf). A year and a half later, the RIAA apparently got nervous about that allegation and made a motion to strike the allegations. Ms. Lindor has struck back, pointing out to the Judge not only that the RIAA's arguments had no legal basis, but also that its brief was completely silent as to any justification for the record companies' copyright-pooling agreement. Such a justification would be necessary for it to pass muster under 'rule of reason' analysis mandated by the US Supreme Court. Ms. Lindor, a home health worker who has never even used a computer, let alone infringed anyone's copyrights with a p2p file sharing program, is the same defendant who exposed, with a little help from her friends, some of the weaknesses in the RIAA's expert testimony. She also obtained a ruling that the RIAA's $750-per-song file damages theory might be a wee bit unconstitutional."
[+] Entertainment: Prof. Johan Pouwelse To Take On RIAA Expert 184 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "Marie Lindor has retained an expert witness of her own to fight the RIAA, and to debunk the testimony and reports of the RIAA's 'expert' Dr. Doug Jacobson, whose reliability has been challenged by Ms. Lindor in her Brooklyn federal court case, UMG v. Lindor. Ms. Lindor's expert is none other than Prof. Johan Pouwelse, Chairman of the Parallel and Distributed Systems Group of Delft University of Technology. It was Prof. Pouwelse's scathing analysis of the RIAA's MediaSentry 'investigations' (PDF) in a case in the Netherlands that caused the courts in that country to direct the ISPs there not to turn over their subscribers' information (PDF), thus nipping in the bud the RIAA's intended litigation juggernaut in that country."
[+] Your Rights Online: RIAA Security Expert's Quest For Reliability 170 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "In the ongoing case of UMG v. Lindor, Ms. Lindor has now moved to exclude the trial testimony of the RIAA's 'expert' witness, Dr. Doug Jacobson. Jacobson is the CTO and co-founder of Palisade Systems, Inc, and a teacher of internet security at Iowa State, but in his February 23rd deposition testimony she argues he failed to meet the reliability standards prescribed by Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, Inc. and Federal Rule of Evidence 702. The Groklaw and Slashdot communities participated in both the preparation of the deposition questions, and the vetting of the witness's responses."
[+] News: RIAA Receives Stern Letter, Folds 382 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "In SONY BMG v. Merchant, in California, the defendant's lawyer wrote the RIAA a rather stern letter recounting how weak the RIAA's evidence is, referring to the deposition of the RIAA's expert witness (see Slashdot commentary), and threatening a malicious prosecution lawsuit. The very same day the RIAA put its tail between its legs and dropped the case, filing a Notice of Voluntary Dismissal. About an hour earlier NYCL had termed the letter a 'model letter'; maybe he was right."
[+] Entertainment: RIAA Has to Disclose Attorneys Fees In Foster Case 193 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The RIAA has been ordered to turn over its attorneys' billing records by March 26, 2007, in Capitol v. Foster in Oklahoma. The 4- page decision and order, issued in connection with the determination of the reasonableness of Ms. Foster's attorneys fees, requires the RIAA to produce the attorneys' time sheets, billing statements, billing records, and costs and expense records. The Court reviewed authorities holding that an opponent's attorneys fees are a relevant factor in determining the reasonableness of attorneys fees, quoting a United States Supreme Court case which held that 'a party cannot litigate tenaciously and then be heard to complain about the time necessarily spent by his opponent in response' (footnote 11 to City of Riverside v. Rivera)."
[+] News: RIAA Vs. Web 2.0? Social Media and Litigation 41 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "After learning that Professor Nesson's CyberLaw class at Harvard Law School has set up a Facebook page to assist in its defense of Joel Tenenbaum in an RIAA case, SONY BMG Music v. Tenenbaum, Wendy Davis of the Online Daily Examiner opines that 'Web 2.0,' and more particularly, the 'social media,' are playing an increasingly important role in RIAA litigation. We at Slashdot have already learned that principle, and have made good use of it, as have our friends at Groklaw."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.
  • by Raul654 (453029) on Saturday March 03 2007, @08:52PM (#18222378) Homepage
    I saw something in the transcript that I wanted to point out before anyone else here criticizes Jacobson on it:

    Q. By what body are you certified as an engineer?
    A. By no professional society.
    Q. No professional society? Is there any organization that has certified you as an engineer?
    A. No.
    Q. Are you part of any peer regulatory body?
    A. I don't quite understand what you mean by --
    Q. Are you part of any body the members of which are peer-regulated?
    A. Can you give me an example of what you are --
    Q. A lawyer, an architect, an accountant. I thought an engineer had to be certified by a peer-regulated body.
    A. To be called a professional engineer they do.
    Q. So are you not a professional engineer?
    A. I do not have a PE license.

    Based on his Jacobson's research page [iastate.edu]. It looks like Jacob's, a professor "on the faculty of Electrical and Computer Engineering", is a computer engineer. Given that, the above statement is totally understandable As a computer engineer myself, I can say that it is *EXTREMELY* rare for a computer engineer to be a licensed PE. (Not a single computer engineering professor in my University is). PE's are common in engineering professions where somebody needs to sign off on the final product - civil engineering especially, and mechanical engineering to a lesser extent.
    • by Cassini2 (956052) on Saturday March 03 2007, @09:05PM (#18222448)
      I'm a Computer Engineer and a Professional Engineer. If I testify in legal proceedings, I am required to adhere to specific professional standards. My certifying body takes our legal obligations fairly seriously. A customer would be wise to hire properly licensed engineers for matters involving legal responsibility and/or large contracts. Amongst other requirements, licensed engineering firms require liability insurance, so if things go bad, the customer has some recourse. We also have ethical standards constraining what we can say or do.
      • a joke (Score:3, Insightful)

        A scientist, an engineer and a programmer are on a road trip. Their car goes out of control on a steep hill and they barely make it to the bottom alive.

        The scientist tries to calculate the distance to the nearest repair shop, the engineer suggests checking the wiring and brake pads, and the programmer suggests driving to the top and seeing if it happens again.

        My point? Programmers and engineers are different. The best way to solve their problems is different. I trust this CTO more because he doesn't h

        • by Cassini2 (956052) on Saturday March 03 2007, @10:39PM (#18222982)

          I would expect my licensing body would get annoyed with me if I spent "45 minutes" (Page 54) drafting a report that was used as part of litigation. They expect that Professional Engineers check our facts so as not to mislead a jury. This avoids sequences of questions like that from Page 42, where the witness essentially admits:

          a) he did not look for alternative explanations,

          b) he did not check how accurate his findings were (potential rate of error),

          c) he has no standards or controls,

          d) he is not using published methods accepted by the scientific community, and

          e) has no way of determining if the information given to him was correct.

          It is considered a substantial problem if a Professional Engineer misleads a jury, as it can pervert justice. As such, it is very important for the legal duties be taken seriously and with the required standards of care.

    • by mollymoo (202721) on Saturday March 03 2007, @09:31PM (#18222584) Journal

      As a computer engineer myself, I can say that it is *EXTREMELY* rare for a computer engineer to be a licensed PE.

      Way off-topic, but programming desperately needs the kind of accountability and professionalism that 'real' engineering has. We're around where engineering was 100 years ago just now, with a hundred different screw threads and steam engines which explode in your face. 'software engineering' may be an academic discipline, but 'professional' (in their execution) software engineers are few and far between and professionally engineered software is rarer still. The lawyer is making a valid point.

      Before you ask, I am a professional (it's my job) programmer. I'd love to be an engineer. I'd love to work somewhere where those kind of standards were applied. I'd get a CS degree (mine is in Physics), but those programmers I've worked with who have CS degrees don't seem much more engineer-like in their application than those without. Too much hacking, not enough engineering. Perhaps civil engineers would be the same if every bridge had "this bridge comes with no warranty, either express or implied" written into the contract.

      • by Raul654 (453029) on Saturday March 03 2007, @09:36PM (#18222620) Homepage
        As far as licensing, one of the turning points happened when a school in Texas blew up as a result of faulty engineering. Public outcry caused them to pass the strictest engineering accountability standards in the nation. (IANAL - if you are are not an NSPE licensed engineer, but your business card calls you an engineer, and you happen to be passing through Texas, DO NOT put your business card in any of those put-your-business-card-in-here-to-win-something fishbowls. I've been told people have been prosecuted for this under the licensing laws)
      • programming desperately needs the kind of accountability and professionalism that 'real' engineering has.

        So would a PE software engineer lose his license if he made software with numerous bugs? Can software engineers really be held to the same level of accountability as structural engineers? I thought it was near on impossible to write error free software these days. What criteria would you use for standards?
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          So would a PE software engineer lose his license if he made software with numerous bugs?

          No, not so long as the bugs a) weren't serious in their consequences, and b) the system failed gracefully without seriously damaging any data. Just the same as a professional structural engineer. If (for example) the construction crew slightly screws up the sand mix in the concrete in one section, it is expected of the engineer to have spec'd the building such that it won't simply collapse as a result. Engineering is often about planning for bad things to happen and mitigating the effects by design.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            Requiring PE involvement in the software world might work to put some kind of (very welcome) brake on the reckless development practices that many companies follow, but given the added cost and added legal responsibility, I suspect it'd just end up decimating the domestic software labor pool and pricing custom software out of the reach of all but a few companies. Substantially more programs get built during any given year than bridges, after all.

            True, but a lot more "things" get built than bridges, and mo

    • The FE Exam (Score:5, Informative)

      by dj245 (732906) on Saturday March 03 2007, @10:02PM (#18222758) Homepage
      I'm currently studying for the spring Fundamentals of Engineering exam (FE). After taking this exam and working in the field of engineering for 5 years, you can take the Professional Engineering (PE) exam. Its not the easiest test in the world, and its a big pain in the arse. That said, I think a computer science student would have a particularly hard time with it. The morning session (general) is composed of several subjects including chemistry, strengths of materials, physics, thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, a small ethics session, etc. Basically all engineering knowledge known up to 1935, updated to the modern day. Everyone has to take the general session, and I think Comp sci students would struggle with it.

      The afternoon session is a choice between mechanical, electrical, civil, (chemical?) engineering. I think maybe comp sci students could take the electrical and do fairly well on this half. The PE exams are very similar (identical?) to the FE exams, but it has been 5 years since you have been in a classroom so they are considered harder just for this reason.

      As for the term "Computer Engineer"; in the 1800s a group of very smart men began doing different things with Natural Philosophy. They were so different that they thought they needed a new title for what they did to separate themselves from the natural philosophers. Eventually they went with the title "scientists". Perhaps a new title is needed for "computer engineers" because it doesn't seem to fit very well.
      • by lawpoop (604919) on Saturday March 03 2007, @09:30PM (#18222576) Homepage Journal
        Because he is not a professional engineer, there is nothing really keeping him from being a talking head in court. On the witness stand, he could be totally honest and forthcoming, or he could totally sell out the the RIAA and say whatever they wanted him to say. The only thing at stake is his reputation, if he is later discredited. However, a professional engineer would lose their license if they were shown to have acted fraudulently or negligently, and thus their career, profession, and ability to make a living.

        It's fine to give a professor the benefit of the doubt when you attend his/her lecture. Doing so in a courtroom seems an act of extreme naivety.
        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          "Because he is not a professional engineer, there is nothing really keeping him from being a talking head in court. On the witness stand, he could be totally honest and forthcoming, or he could totally sell out the the RIAA and say whatever they wanted him to say." - If he outright lies, he could always be charged with perjury (and, I believe, depositions this one are given under penalty of perjury)
        • While I do think it odd that the RIAA picked a guy who (a) is not a professional engineer, (b) has never testified anywhere except at a school board meeting, and (c) is involved in selling software, to universities and other LAN networks, which is supposedly designed to avoid RIAA lawsuits..... these aren't to my mind the most important things to focus on.

          What is more important and shocking is the unprofessionalism of his vodoo science.

          If this witness (a) lacked appropriate professional credentials, (b) lacked appropriate expert witness credentials, and (c) had a major conflict of interest, but nevertheless had a convincing and reliable scientific basis for his conclusions, then he would present a formidable obstacle.

          As it turns out, his "method" -- if you want to call it that -- will be laughed out of any courtroom.

          • by Xenographic (557057) on Sunday March 04 2007, @01:37PM (#18228114) Homepage Journal

            15 Q. Does a MAC address tell you if a
            16 device is wired or wireless?
            17 A. If you can see the MAC address of the
            18 transmitting device you could see whether that
            19 device was wired or wireless.

            This is flat-out wrong. Yes, you CAN find the OUI [wikipedia.org] that might well give you enough information to find out who made the hardware. The problem is that you can change the whole damn MAC address. Conveniently, Wikipedia even has instructions on how to change your MAC [wikipedia.org] on many OSes, although there's an illustrated guide on changing your MAC [nthelp.com], elsewhere.

            This guy may know a bit of programming, but this kind of stuff makes it pretty clear to me that he has no idea how people can and do manipulate information. It's pretty clear to me that he's done little more than investigate only those things which might support their case and has completely ignored anything which might cast doubt upon it.
          • As to the economics side of the discussion: Most of the litigation settlements are $4500. Some people don't have the money. Some people are completely innocent. Almost no one can afford what it costs to defend a case brought by the RIAA, because the RIAA handles the cases in a way calculated to maximize the costs.

            As to the human side, my guess is that a person like you -- who is probably on the high end of being able to weather something like this -- would find it pretty major. If you were totally innocent of copyright infringement which would you rather do -- pay $4500 in extortion money, or pay a fortune in legal fees to vindicate yourself. My guess is that either of those would leave you pretty unhappy. There are many, many people who are totally distraught over being put in these positions, and having to make impossible choices: (a) pay money I can't afford for something I didn't do; (b) turn in my child so they can sue him or her; (c) turn in my nephew or a neighbor's kid, so he can be sued; (d) incur an open-ended expense fighting the case; (e) file bankruptcy, even though it's for a "debt" I don't owe.

            Also many people are afraid they or their children are going to jail.

            And none of the settlements are true settlements: they require an admission of guilt; they leave you open to further lawsuits; and they require you, for the rest of your natural life, to refrain from doing many things which are NOT copyright infringements.

  • Respect (Score:5, Interesting)

    by lightversusdark (922292) on Saturday March 03 2007, @08:53PM (#18222396) Journal
    Respect to you Ray.
    I've seen you take a lot of flack for your efforts to keep us all abreast of the proceedings, of issues that should concern us all.
    And it's nice to see that the community could have been of help.
    All the best.
    • Re:Respect (Score:5, Funny)

      by NewYorkCountryLawyer (912032) * on Saturday March 03 2007, @09:08PM (#18222470) Homepage Journal
      Thank you, light.

      (You don't mind if I call you by your first name, do you?)

      • Re:Respect (Score:5, Informative)

        by NewYorkCountryLawyer (912032) * on Saturday March 03 2007, @10:35PM (#18222942) Homepage Journal
        It doesn't mean a thing. In a deposition it's a totally inappropriate objection. And there was probably not a single instance in which it would have been an appropriate objection at trial.

        At a trial "lack of foundation" means the lawyer's question has leapfrogged over some other material that would have been needed ... i.e. laying a foundation.

        But since I would only be crossexamining this guy, lack of foundation would not have been an appropriate objection to my questions there either.

        I.e., the RIAA lawyer, hopefully out of inexperience rather than calculated dilatoriness, was wasting our precious time.

      • Re:Respect (Score:4, Informative)

        by cpt kangarooski (3773) on Saturday March 03 2007, @11:35PM (#18223496) Homepage
        Re: objections in depositions, they're hardly uncommon. There's no judge present, and it would be nightmarish if you constantly had to bother the judge over every little thing. So if you feel you need to object, you just do it, and it's in the record, and everyone proceeds. If the objection is sustained later, then it can affect how much of the deposition remains. It generally doesn't indicate that things are tense, rather it indicates that the rules of evidence are somewhat technical and that it's important to preserve an objection lest it be lost by not objecting in a timely fashion. So by and large, it's just how these things go.
  • Some "expert"! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Coopjust (872796) on Saturday March 03 2007, @09:36PM (#18222614)
    This guy comes to the conclusion that it was the defendant's computer, even though there is no evidence from hard drive forensics, and he says there is no wireless router since the IP was registered to the house.

    Also, he kept no records of the forensic analysis, and he is always trying to pin the idea that an IP address is a computer, even though it's obvious he's avoiding or twisting questions, even to someone who isn't so technically inclined.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      Also, he kept no records of the forensic analysis, and he is always trying to pin the idea that an IP address is a computer, even though it's obvious he's avoiding or twisting questions, even to someone who isn't so technically inclined.

      I feel bad for the guy. Yes, he sold his soul to the mafiaa, but internetworking is difficult enough to explain to someone with some background in IT. This deposition is exactly the same kind of thing you would get if a lawyer had to explain tax law to a computer engineer, with the added benefit that the Q/A process is an exceptuionally difficult way to go about educating someone on how this crap actualy works. The long and the short is that The guy can demonstrate that the machine that was running KaZa

      • Re:Some "expert"! (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Coopjust (872796) on Sunday March 04 2007, @12:25AM (#18223868)
        He tried very hard not to say that it is always true because it isn't. That is why the lawyer (who clearly doesn't understand internetworking, but had a list of "gothchas") couldn't pin him down to anything.

        While you may be right that the alledged KaZaa packets would support that idea, the main problem is that the RIAA expert has *no* way to verify any of his claims.

        -He failed to document his forensics- which he believes is not necessary and any other professional would consider "OK". (Riiiight).
        -He claims to be an expert on MediaSentry, but doesn't know enough about the program to discuss about potential bugs, the way it works, whether or not it has the ability to be wrong, etc.
        -He tries to claim that the evidence proves his case, admits any screenshot can be manipulated, and proceeds to describe how it proves it.
        -He admits the forensics, on the entire drive, found *nothing* that would suggest that there were illicit files, much less KaZaa.
        -He admits that there was no verification that what Verizon produced was true.

        His testimony is full of holes...
      • Re:Some "expert"! (Score:5, Insightful)

        by tftp (111690) on Saturday March 03 2007, @10:25PM (#18222880) Homepage
        To me it's crystal clear that they observed someone's Kazaa traffic, but when they snatched the HDD it was some other computer. The reason for that is not some outlandish NAT or Kazaa hack, but simply an IP address confusion (either a true collision, or a wrong DHCP log at Verizon - not that they care.)
      • Re:Some "expert"! (Score:5, Interesting)

        by NewYorkCountryLawyer (912032) * on Saturday March 03 2007, @10:27PM (#18222894) Homepage Journal
        Exactly. They have no proof who was using the computer or even what computer it was.

        I'll go you even one better, they don't even know if the index of song files in the screen shot was on one computer, or represented bits and pieces from a number of different computers (nodes, in KaZaA parlance).

      • Re:Some "expert"! (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Ungrounded Lightning (62228) on Sunday March 04 2007, @04:58AM (#18225100) Journal
        An expert who ignores that there is a subnet mask that gives you a full 4th octet under a single IP either hasn't ever worked with networking, or is not aware of the knowledge they are shelling out to first year students in technical institutes;

        The record doesn't show anything like that.

        One of the few things he did right was determine that the IP address was assigned to the computer, that NAT wasn't in use. The tool he used does this by extracting and displaying both the "from" IP address on the packet and a copy of the interface's IP address that KaZaA helpfully records in the data part of at least one of the packets of the exchange. This eliminates NAT on routers and wireless access points.

        Since the connection was a dialup with a DHCP-assigned dynamic IP address, it would have a single IP address - which eliminates multi-address subnets. The combination of that with "no NAT" eliminates wireless access points and multi-computer home networks. (The computer that dialed up COULD be NATting and forwarding for others, but it WAS the one that ran the KaZaA client.)

        But it doesn't eliminate the possibility that the IP was actually assigned to the defendant. There are a lot of ways that could happen. For instance: Maybe the clocks were off between the ISP's logger and the tool that captured the IP address of the "pirate publisher". Maybe the ISP's logs weren't high enough resolution and there was a logon-logoff event. Maybe somebody typoed the IP address somewhere. And a bunch of other possibilities. The MAC address wasn't recorded (or recordable remotely) so they don't have a unique identifier of the computer's wireless card, and even if they did it's possible to hack 'em.

        Given that there's no sign of a KaZaA client or music files on the captured hard drive, it seems likely that th identification of the defendant's computer from the ISP's logs and the IP capturing tool output was somehow in error, and they got the wrong victim.
  • IPV6 (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Nom du Keyboard (633989) on Saturday March 03 2007, @09:45PM (#18222668)
    There's a spot down in there where the RIAA expert refers to IPV6, and this refers to 2004. That alone should get him laughed out of the tech community.

    Not to mention that he maintains he can trace the IP address back to a specific ISP account and computer (emphasis mine). Unless he's a Peeping Tom with a web-cam in the defendant's house, the RIAA should be demanding their money back from him.

    Oh, and then there's the place where he maintains that at the time the computer was imaged many months afterwards, that there was no wireless router in use at that time Media Sentry "discovered" this "infringer". Is there a log that keeps records of every IP address you've ever connected with?

    And I have to laugh at how he refers to "registered" computers. I thought he was talking about gun registration, or some such thing. I've never heard of my own computer being "registered" to anything. Is this another invented RIAA term, like "Media Distribution System"? Has anyone else ever referred to KaZaA, or any other P2P program, as an MDS? Ray, you can't be letting the RIAA frame the terms of the debate to ignorant Judges.

    And don't miss the parts where he says he didn't actually document any of his findings because there was nothing to find, however, you should go through your own copy of the disc to verify my Registry findings that no wireless router was in place. He's supposed to be the expert, and he wants the defense to replicate his findings in the Registry??? Are there any registry experts here? Probably a few, but not many. But he assures us it's there.

    Biggest thing is that he says that no KaZaA was present, nor any infringing music files. The only way the RIAA can respond is you sent us the wrong hard drive. No question that the person in question might have actually been innocent. RIAA -- You Bastards!

    Glad to know that we helped, Ray! Keep fighting the good fight!

  • by b3gr33n (1071090) on Saturday March 03 2007, @09:53PM (#18222712)
    The RIAA lobbyists have been a busy lot. On Friday, they got the Copyright Review Board to grant them a fee based system that will essentially shut down the majority of small Internet Radio stations. Way to go boys. Bring on that corporate commercial media. http://www.radioparadise.com/ [radioparadise.com] http://www.save-internet-radio.com/2007/03/02/save -internet-radio/ [save-internet-radio.com]
  • Damn (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Kythe (4779) on Saturday March 03 2007, @10:01PM (#18222748)
    I knew Doug Jacobson when I was an engineering student at ISU. He seemed like a decent and knowledgeable guy, very interested in computer security.

    I'm very sorry to see he's come to this.
    • Re:Damn (Score:5, Insightful)

      by NewYorkCountryLawyer (912032) * on Saturday March 03 2007, @10:05PM (#18222770) Homepage Journal

      I think many of his students will be appalled at the actual contents of his testimony.

      For example, he teaches a course in "Information Warfare", the entire thrust of which is that the internet is dangerous and insecure in the extreme. He teaches students all about the infinite numbers of vulnerabilities.

      Then he testifies that he forms an opinion in 45 minutes based upon some printouts from an investigator who pulled down some screenshots from the internet.... with no verification whatsoever.

      And that he's give about 200 such opinions. And so far, 200 out of 200 concluded, without reservation, that there was indeed copyright infringement.

      What kind of grade would he issue to a student who handed in work like that?

      • Re:Damn (Score:4, Insightful)

        by violet16 (700870) on Sunday March 04 2007, @03:54AM (#18224836)
        I'm not especially techy, but it seems that the general opinion here is much harsher on Jacobson than is really warranted. Obviously most of us here think he's on the wrong side of an important fight, but we need to actually address what he says, not dismiss him because we think he sucks.

        The on-topic +5 posts here seem very biased to me. They are insulting towards Jacobsen but fail to identify anything like an actual error in anything he says. The general opinion as to why he's wrong seems to be (a) the RIAA could have faked their screenshots, (b) the application could have been custom-hacked to lie about its private IP address, (c) Jacobson doesn't know exactly how the sniffer technology works. Which is all true. But it's quite unlikely that the RIAA is faking up screenshots so they can accuse completely random people of illegal file sharing, or that the accused custom-hacked their Kazaa client, or that the sniffer tech is totally bogus.

        If you're accused of illegal file sharing and you're innocent, I'd imagine plausible reasons why are:
        (a) They identified the infringer's IP address correctly but are mistaken in thinking it was assigned to you during the relevant time window; or
        (b) The infringement did take place on your IP address but you have an unsecured network (ideally a wireless router) and god knows who did it; or
        (c) The infringement did take place on your computer but several people use that and who knows which of them did it.

        Unless Verizon screwed up, (a) seems out. And despite what Ray seems hell-bent on establishing, so does (b), given the public IP/private IP match. That strongly suggests it was indeed a single computer with a direct connection to the internet. Now, I know it's not 100% proof. But it seems to be quite likely, and I'd think it certainly sounds plausible to a judge.

        Now please correct me if and where I'm wrong! Can we actually find something Jacobson said that's plainly wrong, and not just possibly wrong under unlikely circumstances?
  • What a joke (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Stevecrox (962208) on Saturday March 03 2007, @10:28PM (#18222900) Journal
    After reading that all I can see if the guy evading the question, flat out denying truths, agreeing with them in limited fashions, constantly playing dumb. His investigation methods are borderline incompetent, after reading that huge PDF I could only say he should not be allowed to be a whitness in any case I mean I'm a third year computer engineering student most of my course emphasis has been on networking and hardware rather than this sort of thing but I can see huge holes in his logic.

    1.Doesn't verify his sources Beckermans point about "are mediasomethigns and verizons clock synchronised" is a good one espeacially when you consider his point about the nature of IP address's, at the very least he should have requested the lease time of that IP (so when did the subscriber start using the IP and for how long) to verify that the information had a chance of being correct.

    2.No set method, the lack of reports and the fact he never made print outs suggests he doesn't have a set method of investigating, which personnally would make me question his investigation techniques this results in a whole list of problems:
    2a.means no evidence supporting the defendent was kept, in effect his not impartial and also hurts the defense 2b.suggests he makes it up as he goes along, a "what seems a good idea at the time", as you can clearly see he's missed out on some issues which are important, like confirming the MAC address of the machine and its method of connecting to the internet.

    3.Deliberate attempts to twist what hes saying or not sticking to the question an example would be towards the end where he starts talking about IPV4 and finishs with IPV6. I don't know how either works exactly but he should have talked about both seperatly, the use of both at once means he could be dilibertly hiding stuff, when was IPV6 rolled out anyways? Anouther example would be his linking IP address's directly to a PC, no matter how many times Beckerman tried to get him to admit that when accessed through a router the IP address given to the outside world is the routers not the individual PC's. 4.Lack of actual investigation, now I'm not sure what he was exactly hired to do but by the looks of it RIAA hired him to prove and be a whitness to say that a person used Kaza to download and share music. Hes not done that, hes investigated the drive he was sent found no traces of Kaza on it, or any MP3's (I think he indirectly said this) rather than investigate possible explanations for this, for example did the person own two pc's, did they connect to the internet through a router, could this router have been compromised (perhaps unsecured), perhaps then look for security vulnerabilities to see if it was a zombie machine, or for other security problems. Then if he couldn't prove any of that attempt to verify that mediashares information was correct, check it and check verizons and then attempt to co-oberate that information somehow, for example attempt to obtain the MAC address from the hard drive and from mediashares packet information in otherwords to link them up. Otherwise all he can actually claim is that "The pc in question when inspected did not have the Kazaa program on it at any time, nor does it appeared to have or have had the media files that mediasomething accuse the computer of having" His conclusions from his investigation lack any form of imparitality and it appears that he was unwilling to give any real unbiased opinion.

    personnaly after reading that disposition I would seriously call into credibility as a expert or even as a whitness. I'm sure better people than I could take apart his disposition its 3am here I'm tired but those are the things that come to my mind at least
  • by cojsl (694820) on Saturday March 03 2007, @10:37PM (#18222964) Homepage
    From p. 88:
    Q. But you don't know whose computer it actually was, do you?
    A. No.
    Q. But your report said it was defendant's computer, so I think you will agree that that's an imprecision in your report.
  • by violet16 (700870) on Saturday March 03 2007, @10:40PM (#18222994)

    A few unhelpful observations.

    This is my first real-life encounter with a deposition, and I've gotta say it's quite fascinating. I like how the opposing lawyer relentlessly objects to nearly every single question. And how Mr. Beckerman's first goal seems to be to show that the "expert" has a financial interest in what he's been claiming, coupled with that expert's bizarre claims that he doesn't have the foggiest idea about the commercial reality surrounding his work. For example:

    A. Our company worked with Audible Magic to develop a product to stop peer-to-peer traffic as identified by Audible Magic's proprietary code.
    Q. And you are testifying here today that you have no idea how the RIAA reacted to this work that you are doing?
    A. That's correct.
    Q. Have the press releases issued by Palisade Systems referred to the RIAA?
    MR. GABRIEL: I object to the form.
    Lack of foundation.
    A. I'm sure that some of our press releases have probably mentioned the RIAA.

    I'm not sure how you can have "no idea" whether the RIAA is pleased, furious, or otherwise about the fact that your company is creating anti-P2P products, while being simultaneously "sure" that your company is referring to the RIAA in its press releases to help sell its products.

    This is funny, too:

    Q. Based upon your examination of the hard drive which you examined, what evidence did you find that inculpated Marie Lindor personally?
    MR. GABRIEL: Object to the form.
    Lack of foundation.
    A. Would you please define the second-to-last word.
    Q. "Her"?
    A. No, "inculpated." Would you please define that for me.
    Q. Do you not know what the word "inculpated" means?
    A. That's correct.
    Q. Are you familiar with the word "exculpate"?
    A. No.
    Q. What is your educational background?
    A. Computer engineering.

        • by Alaren (682568) on Sunday March 04 2007, @01:21AM (#18224184) Homepage

          I have a B.A. in Philosophy and I'm almost done with my first year of law school. I do not believe I have seen or heard the terms "inculpated" or "exculpate" ever before.

          Seeing them in print, I deduced their meaning immediately. But they are clearly "terms of art," or in other words, legalese. This is not how normal people communicate.

          There are a lot of substantive criticisms worth exploring in this document, but poking fun at someone who doesn't understand a word that has no practical value in everday speech (and probably limited value even in legal documents) seems pretty unfair. I agree that most sufficiently educated people could puzzle together the meaning of the word, but keep in mind that it is easier to draw meaning from context when you're reading a question than when you're hearing that question.

  • by grandpa-geek (981017) on Saturday March 03 2007, @10:47PM (#18223070)
    IANAL, but I understand that there are standards for admissibility of scientific evidence, and the questions quoted below (and several that follow) cover them. The most recent ruling is called "Daubert."

    Whatever this witness has to say based on his methods is useless because the methods have not been generally accepted and/or there are no peer reviews or tests of the methods' accuracy/reliability and no known level of accuracy/reliability.

    Q. Has your method of determining from
    the MediaSentry materials whether a particular
    computer has been used for uploading or downloading
    copyrighted works been tested by any testing body?

    A. Not that I have submitted.
    Q. Do you know anyone else that is using
    your method, other than you?
    A. Not that I'm aware of.
    Q. Has your method of determining
    through the MediaSentry materials whether a
    particular computer has been used for uploading or
    downloading copyrighted works been subjected to any
    form of peer review?
    A. Not that I'm aware of.
    Q. Has your method of determining from
    the MediaSentry materials whether a computer has
    been used for uploading or downloading copyrighted
    works been published?
    A. No.
    Q. Is there a known rate of error for
    your method?
    A. No.
    Q. Is there a potential rate of error?
    MR. GABRIEL: Object to the form.
    A. I guess there is always a potential
    of an error.
    Q. Do you know of a rate of error?
    A. To my process, no.

    Q. Are there any standards and controls
    over what you have done?
    A. No.
    Q. Have your methods been generally
    accepted in the scientific community?
    A. The process has not been vetted
    through the scientific community.
  • by Proudrooster (580120) on Sunday March 04 2007, @12:02AM (#18223688) Homepage
    Wow! I just finished reading the ASCII transcript and would be embarassed to bring this case. Just looking at the following facts:

    • The "expert" did about 45 minutes worth of work and produced no evidence to support the allegations and produced almost no documentation.
    • The "expert" does not fully understand how the software that gathered the evidence functions
    • The "expert" does not know if the information he received from the ISP (Verizon/3rd Party) is accurate.
    • The "expert" does not know if the clocks were synchronized between the evidence gatherers and the ISP.
    • The "expert" can not identify which computer is involved in the allegations.
    • The "expert" can not identity what physical person is involved in the allegations.
    • The "expert" understands the Internet is insecure and computers can be taken over and remote controlled.
    • The "expert" understands there are several methods which could have mistakenly identified the accused, e.g. "ip spoofing".
    • The "expert" either lied under oath or is not really an expert when he said he could not make certain determinations about a computer based soley on the harddrive. He stated he could not tell if the computer had a "wireless network card" by looking soley at the registry without the computer that the registry came from. Huh???? Hint to the "expert", look for "WLAN" in the Registry, double hint, WLAN='Wireless LAN'.
    • The "expert" could not demonstrate that the files uploaded/downloaded were copyrighted material and simply had a screen shot of some filenames and ip addresses from a 3rd party.
    • The "expert" acknowledged that screenshots could be faked.
    • The "expert" acknowledged that public IP addresses can change often and could be spoofed


    This entire case hinges on screenshots, mystery analysis software "encase", a questionable expert, and an IP address obtained from an ISP. The evidence in this case doesn't even make it to the standard of "hearsay" not to mention the fact that the plaintiff lawyer appears to be highly inexperienced with Turets syndrome and keeps blurting "Objection to form."

    I suspect that if one were to dig deeper into the so-called evidence, one would learn that information obtained from Verizon is prone to error, and that the procedures for generating the screenshots from KaZaa are based on assumptions which are prone to error and probably performed by monkeys. I want to read the deposition from the "dude/monkey" who took the screenshots, please post that one next.

    If I were the lawyer for the defendant, I would already be filing my motion for dismissal "with prejudice" with the award of reasonable lawyer fees for having brought a case without any evidence.

    Are there any standards for evidence? Is a printout obtained via supoena really a standard for evidence? If so, I can prove anything you like and as a bonus, I even have a professional certification. :)
  • by macemoneta (154740) on Sunday March 04 2007, @12:28AM (#18223882)
    There seems to be a common misconception, that I noted in the testimony, that you have to use one of the reserved IP address ranges on the LAN side of a NATed router. In fact, you can use any address at all (I do). The only downside to this practice is if you eventually have to move the NATed host(s) to the WAN side, they need to be re-addressed - and of course, that only applies to hosts with statically assigned IPs.

    In other words, by looking at the IP address contained in the payload, there's no way to tell that it was behind a NAT router or not simply because the IP address was not in a reserved range.

    Secondarily, since the computer interface IP address is in the packet payload, that is data that is being sent by an application. The application (whatever it was that was communicating with the P2P network) may:

    - lie. It could be a hacked version of a P2P standard application,
    - allow user configuration of the IP address in the payload (if I remember correctly, some seem to),
    - be broken. I assume all versions of all applications that communicate on the indicated P2P network were not vetted for their proper functioning.

  • by Creepy Crawler (680178) on Sunday March 04 2007, @12:39AM (#18223940)
    I've seen Kazaa mess up our DSL connection quite a few times. Now, did we use Kazaa? Nope. (we prefered WinMX and irc, but thats beside the point :-D).

    When a user gets on Kazaa, the Kazaa network perpetuates that External IP address through their network. Your external_IP is linked to your kazaa_username. Now, when people search and get your kazaa_username, they hit that IP address. All is fine and good... until you are knocked off of DSL or your dhcp timer is up.

    Then, you reconnect using a new external_IP. Now, you have many users on Kazaa that know your username goes to either your old IP or your new IP.

    The network trashing occurs to the person who inhabits your OLD external_IP. You see a LOT of bandwidth from users and Kazaa network towards your new IP address. We had a 768/384 Kb connection, and 200 Kb was ate up with garbage from Kazaa from the previous IP inhabitor. This number of garbage connections approaches 0Kb, but never meets it.

    Perhaps they detected a residual connection like that.

    • There was no legal basis for making those objections at a deposition. He was just wasting time.

      For me to say why he was doing it would be speculation. My guess as to the reason: inexperience.

      • by nudicle (652327) on Sunday March 04 2007, @12:00AM (#18223676)
        The lawyer was making those objections because that's how these things work, for better or worse. In these situations, lawyers attend depositions assigned specifically to object to anything remotely objectionable in order to preserve their objections in the future (because otherwise they are lost). If something really damaging happened in one of the answers to an objected question, those lawyers could then bring up the fact that they objected at the time and wouldn't be hosed by failure to preserve the issue. In many cases it's just wasting time, but in the event something goes ill in your deposition, you'll thank your lawyers for so protecting you.
    • Ughhh. I'm up to 40 and reading. This is like a Mongolian [wikipedia.org] version of Law and Order.
      • Re:Zzzzz... (Score:5, Funny)

        by mollymoo (202721) on Saturday March 03 2007, @11:27PM (#18223420) Journal

        The part where the ambulance goes by is pretty funny.

        At first I thought that was a lawyer-lawyer jibe and he was about to ask if the other lawyer wanted to chase it. But it was almost that good anyway:

        MR. GABRIEL: Why don't you wait until the ambulance passes.
        MR. BECKERMAN: I don't think we --
        MR. GABRIEL: It may take a while.
        MR. BECKERMAN: This is New York, Richard. This isn't Denver. We could be here all day.
        MR. GABRIEL: Just try to keep your voice up.
    • Re:You wha? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 03 2007, @11:29PM (#18223440)
      As I interpret it, the summary is that the guy inspecting the hard drive appeared to have no formal qualifications, his methods were not peer reviewed, he was unaware of the exact methods and procedures of the software he had been using to identify the user or examine the hard drive, he could not testify that although media appeared to be shared it had actually been downloaded by any person (other than the software looking for copyright material), although he examined the disk he didn't actually document any of his findings, that he was not aware if the time of IP address allocation and the IP address to account lookup that Verizon did was actually correlated/synchronized, that he was unaware of Verizons' procedure for looking up such data and if it was free of human and/or mechanical errors, that he didn't know what the IP allocation time was or how many times this dynamic IP address had been allocated that day, that he himself teaches classes involving spoofing, that there were 3 user accounts on the hard drive that he examined, and that, assuming the information from Verizon was accurate, he had no way to actually show which particular person had been using the computer. Further, he conceded that it was possible to compromise and control a computer remotely over the Internet, and that he had not investigated if this had actually occurred. A document was also referred to in which it was shown that P2P applications often scan users hard drives and share media on installation, and many P2P users are not aware of which files on their computer are shared, even when their whole drive may be shared, including personal documents. It was also stated that P2P applications can run in the background, e.g. in the system tray, perhaps without the users knowledge.

      There was some tenuous discussion of how MAC addresses are used (to which I am not certain I completely agree, but I'm not an expert), and again on how the correlation of two address fields in a Kazaa packet shows that the computer was connected directly to the Internet and not through a router. Again, there was nothing to show that the computer connected to the Internet at the time actually belonged to the Verizon account holder, because no MAC address was recorded and in fact he didn't have access to anything except the hard drive (although personally I would expect Windows records this in the registry, which he did examine and didn't document). In any case, he did say that MAC addresses could be spoofed.

      Most interesting for me was that as the examiner, he had been asked purely to find out if Kazaa and MP3 files were present, and he seemed to followed that direction, failing to look for any materials (e.g. malware, remote control apps, etc.) that could possibly have assisted the defense.

      HTH
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      It could also be distressingly misleading if, for example, file sharing was taking place on that IP address when it was assigned to someone else, and shortly thereafter, the computer being examined had received that IP address and successfully re-requested it every time after that.