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WTO Again Sides With Antigua Over Online Gambling
Posted by
Hemos
on Mon Apr 02, 2007 07:44 AM
from the going-to-be-a-long-slog dept.
from the going-to-be-a-long-slog dept.
TechDirt writes "For some time we've been following the ongoing conflict between the US and the island nation of Antigua surrounding internet gambling. Even before the passage of the most recent anti-gambling law, Antigua had gone to the WTO to complain that the US government's actions against online gambling were de facto protectionist measures, and thus violated international trade law. The WTO ended up siding with Antigua, although, quite predictably, the US did nothing to resolve the issue -- in fact, things have only gotten worse. Now the WTO is speaking out again, slamming the US government for its failure to abide by the decision against it. Once again, it seems likely that the US will ignore the decision, although that would give Antigua the right to retaliate. One possibility that's been thrown out there is that Antigua may turn itself into a haven for free music and software and set up some site like allofmp3.com. Of course, the US put pressure on Russia to crack down on that site, as part of the country's admittance into the WTO, but since Antigua is already part of the organization, the US would have no such leverage. Now, the WTO has spoken out again."
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Ob (Score:4, Funny)
George, what are you doing? I was only joking!
Somebody... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Shut up and take your medicine (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
-- Frost, Aliens
Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Interesting)
on the USA either, UN, WTO, all other "organizations" are powerless and pointless.
tom
It's like the Bush fans who justify his behavior by saying "oh, but Clinton did this stuff too!" Well, when you spend years whining and bitching about how bad the other guy was, you kinda lose the right to use "they did it first" as a defense.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
on the USA either, UN, WTO, all other "organizations" are powerless and pointless.
tom"
Oh, okay, so the USA isn't any worse than NK, Iraq, or Iran? That's a stunning endorsement.
We've been in this camp for a long time. When the UN wanted to teach girls about family planning, it was the US and Iran that went to bat against the measure.
Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
Look at all stats too, USA is sliding down the lists so fast you wonder what happened. USA has been surpassed in most areas by countries who care about it's citizens and it's businesses. But Americans continue to claim to be #1 even when all stats show otherwise. It must be nice to be so brainwashed and ignorant.
Parent
Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
You know - the "family first, anti-drugs, small government" republicans? That same party where both the president and VP have DWIs? Where every single candidate in the 2008 race has been divorced at least once? The party that over the past 6 years has increased the size of the government and budget to the largest ever?
Disclaimer: I was a Republican. The above facts are just some of the many reasons I no longer am. The hypocrisy of that party boggles the mind.
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, the role of government in a representative republic shouldn't be to protect people from themselves, either.
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
Too true, which is why the framers of your constitution put in a section entitled Limits on Congress [usconstitution.net] that says, amongst other things, "The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."
This provides a nice empirical test of the claim "the US isn't a democracy." So long as Congress does not pass a law like the Military Commissions Act of 2006, which suspends Habeas Corpus for non-citizens [csmonitor.com] the US could plausibly be claimed to not be a democracy. Now that the law has been passed, it is much more difficult to make that claim. Note that the language of the Constitution is clear and unambiguous and says nothing about the citizenship of the people for whom Habeas Corpus may be suspended.
The fact that Congress passed the Military Commissions Act of 2006 suggests that they know the voters will reward them despite the unconstitutional nature of the law. That sounds like a democracy to me.
As time passes, the US looks less and less like a democratic republic and more and more like a democratic oligarchy, in which a small clique of the ultra-wealthy ruling class both court and manipulate the unrestrained will of the populace, usually in the name of security of some kind. The Republicans focus on security against drugs and porn and terrorism; the Democrats focus on security against poverty and unemployment and porn (remember Tipper Gore?). This is a far cry from the republic your founders envisioned and to an extent achieved, in which the constitution put limits on the will of the people in the name of liberty.
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:4, Insightful)
As for democratic oligarchy -- that term is an oxymoron. The US continues to be an indirect democracy (representative republic, pretty much the same thing), it's just that the electorate is bought by campaign ads, vote pandering, and wedge issues -- real political discourse is frowned upon. This allows the moneyed interests to dominate the electoral process.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's easy to forget that most laws are quite reasonable; because they are, we never hear about them, and take them for granted.
Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is an alternative way of saying "redirecting them to give their money towards the US government".
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone that stupid deserves to be on the streets.
Wait, if we follow your argument, perhaps a government appointed agent should visit you during sex and make sure you use a condom. After all, there's nothing pathetic about protecting your citizens from contracting a deadly disease from a 5 minute sexual encounter.
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
That would be really nice, if that was what was happening. However, if you live in CT, NV, or a few other states, you can quite happily log into an in-state's casino website & gamble away your life savings. Or you could just go to the OTB website & do so across state lines. Or you can go to your states lottery website & do it.
Nope, look at the reasons the US govt is giving, 'the money supports drug lords', 'the money supports terrorists', 'Online gambling is being blocked because of moral reasons'. The first 2 are bunk because Antigua monitors their gaming establishments very carefully, they are about 30% of the countries GNP. If the last one was true, and it is the reason they formally advanced to WIPO, then they would be obligated to block it within the US as well. WIPO told them that, and they responded by doing nothing internally & passing more international restrictions.
This is not about a moral issue, this is about blocking money moving out of the country. That's protectionism, and it's blocked by all the treaties we've signed - we've screamed in the past on exactly the same points, so it's perfectly alright to call the US govt a bunch of hypocrites, because they provably are. That's not anti-US, it's fact. I know it's hard to believe, but even in this day & age, sometimes we still get to say the Emperor has no clothes without a trip to Gitmo.
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, that's right, *nowhere*!
The government's job is not to protect us from ourselves. Period.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Look what happened when they did that..!
Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
Ha ha ha ha ha! Looks like you bought the story. The controls are simply to make sure that every single bottle of booze is TAXED. They don't give a shit about you. If they did, it would be treated just like a controlled medication (eg opioids) - some authority has to sign so you can get it, you only get small doses at a time, and special measures are in place to make sure you don't go "shopping" to "stock up". Even in this case the controls are to prevent someone becoming a supplier of opioids rather than abusing them.
You can walk into any liquor store and buy all the booze you want - enough to kill yourself many times over. So long as it's taxed. Same deal with tobacco. And gambling must be done in specific places, so the government can keep its eye on the books to make sure the tax is paid.
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Informative)
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Rules are for others (Score:5, Insightful)
What a shocker (Score:4, Insightful)
i need to tweak the anti-americanism here (Score:3, Insightful)
however, anyone who thinks the usa is special does need a comeuppance: the usa is just as hypocritical as china or russia or india or the majority of every other country in the world. at the same time, that observation is a double edged sword: the usa is no better, and NO WORSE, than these countries. seriously, find a crime the usa does, and tell me the majority of other countries in the world aren't guilty of the same thing
so the anti-americanism needs to be tweaked: the usa is not special and good, so if you thought it was, you need a spanking. at the same time, all the rabid anti-usa types need to check themselves if they think the usa deserves special prosecution for crimes every country is guilty of. all that needs to change is that the rabid patriotic americans need to wake up and admit they are wrong... the rabid anti-americans are STILL wrong, and always have been wrong
the only people with any valid opinion of the usa are those who do not especially love the usa, nor especially hate it. the usa does evil, the usa does good. much like every other country in the world. this balanced attitude is the only valid opinion. any other opinion is partisan propaganda, brain dead and unfair, whether anti-usa, or pro-usa
the usa is not special. not especially good, and not especially evil, either. listen up, braindead partisans
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Not necessarily on topic, but an important counterpoint to your generic statements, I feel.
Re:i need to tweak the anti-americanism here (Score:4, Insightful)
Any successful executive speaks to his electoral power base, but typically speeches high profile enough to be heard outside the country are moderated to sound at least moderately reasonable. That the current sitting president and his staff feel comfortable using terminology you quote, which is actively alienating to citizens of allies, let alone disinterested countries, is telling of the strong current of isolationism which has defined the United States foreign policy for many decades.
I see no force of change which is capable of altering a society and political landscape this inwardly focused, and this vast, short of a complete and obvious loss of preeminence in global standing. Of course, the country is on track for this, but it is taking a while.
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world has much to fear from american nationalism (Score:5, Insightful)
and much to fear form chinese imperialism
and much to fear from russian colonialism
and much to fear from european patriotism
and much to fear form indian chauvanism
etc.
all of these things. not just the americans. not just the arabs
our only saving grace in this world is you and me, seriously: those who see our problems as human problems, not japanese/ pakistani/ indonesian/ brazilian/ etc. problems
that's the challenge of this 21st century: the defeat of nationalistic hubris/ tribal pride, the emergence of universally accepted standards of HUMAN brotherhood
you and i know are shared humanity is more important than the country on our passports. unfortunately, too many in this world think their national/ racial/ tribal allegience is more important than their simple shared human allegiance
the challenge of the 21st century is the defeat of such people
Parent
take all of those crimes (Score:3, Insightful)
or russia
why does the things the usa does stand out as especially egregious? i see the same level of stink and hypocrisy and arrogance and evil in all 3 countries. so why aren't you hating russia or china?
if, however, you have "fallen out of love" with the usa, well ok then. just be balanced when you assess the crimes of the usa against the crimes of other countries. i think you'll find the usa does wrong to the same degree as the majority of other countries. therefore, it
Same as our Softwood lumber (Score:5, Interesting)
These fines have added up to 2 billion dollars. We had gone repeatedly to the WTO about the issue, and they said that we were in the right, and that the US must gives our money back. This has been going over 10 years.
The US knows that it is in the wrong. However they simply won't pay the fine.
So forget about anyone else getting any rulings through the WTO.
Re:Same as our Softwood lumber (Score:4, Informative)
Googled for this out of interest.
Do you have a more recent story? Because this one from last year contradicts you.
Parent
Re:Same as our Softwood lumber (Score:5, Informative)
"6.2 We therefore consider that the United States has implemented the recommendations and
rulings of the DSB in US - Softwood Lumber V, to bring its measure into conformity with its
obligations under the AD Agreement.
6.3 Having found that the United States did not act inconsistently with its obligations under the
asserted WTO Agreements, we consider that no recommendation under Article 19.1 of the DSU is
necessary, and we make none."
http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/tna-nac/dispute-en.a
Final settlement documented here:
http://w01.international.gc.ca/MinPub/Publication
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think the US has to smarten up real fast about this or they might end up getting
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The report also noted that
Re:Hmm.... (Score:5, Interesting)
But you do let people gamble in American casinos in Vegas, Atlantic City (at times!) and certain native American reservations? Why not online? Protectionism, see?
It's like Columbia complaining to the WTO that we ban cocaine.
No it's not. Cocaine is illegal in both the US and Colombia. Gambling is legal in parts of the US and in Antigua. The US created a law to make "online" gambling illegal, but no one goes to jail for going to Vegas even if gambling is illegal in their state. Therefore Antigua complains. Especially since most of their business came from the US. That's what trade organizations are all about, really.
but I think online gambling falls into a different realm. Because of the ease of access, it could lead to an major increase in gambling.
Thank God that we have you as our self-appointed Censor!
Yes some people have gambling problems, and can ruin their lives (and their family) through gambling. However not everyone has this problem. Most people can keep to the limits they establish themselves.
You suggest a prohibition type scenario. If you look around you perhaps you might understand what happens when government prohibits something that the people want. The people do it ANYWAY. Example - alchol in the 20's. Drugs today. Prohibition enables organized crime to get rich from the public vice. It does not stop the vice.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I understand your point. I mean, historically - this arrangement lasts for as long as the US government wants it to last.
State lotteries and horse racing (Score:5, Informative)
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Hmm.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Despite whatever misguided beliefs you may have, America has always been highly respected and loved by people all over the world. Whether you were from France, Germany, Japan or anywhere else, people looked toward America as an example for the rest of the world. A place people wanted to be. A country of hope for those who had none and a people that people loved. Perhaps not perfect, but still a place that gave hope to even those who loved their own countries.
This was illustrated by the response immediately after 9/11. Remember "We All Today are USA"? Remember people in every city on the planet marching, crying, holding vigils and saying they love America and that the attacks broke their hearts?
For a moment in time, we held the sympathy of a world that looked to us. And then we blew it. Some people hate America, including some Americans. For others around the world (and in America), it's not so much hate as disappointment. I have talked to countless people from every walk of life around the planet and one thing is consistent. They love Americans and they loved the America that gave them hope. That stood for ideals, cared about peace and freedom and being both an example to and a beacon for other free civilizations world-wide. Just because they criticize the country doesn't mean they hate it. It means they are frustrated with it. They are frustrated that the one great example of everything that appealed to them has turned on its head.
Rather than playing the Fox News "they hate our freedom and our baby jebus!" card that is so easy for the ignorant, self-involved idiots to play, try considering that just maybe we lost the sympathy, affection and respect of the entire world on our own watch and of our own accord. If we want to be able to travel the globe and enjoy the respect and fascination people once had for an American abroad, we need to reconsider our actions past and our decisions future. You can't lumber around the playground like a clumsy bully and simultaneously, shouting that you don't care what anyone else thinks and treating everyone else in the world community as a lesser human being by their nationality and simultaneously expect to be seen as a respectable victim standing up for themselves.
Part of being a mature country that provides world-wide leadership means giving great consideration to actions yet taken and honest introspective review of those already performed. Let's do a little less flag-waving and "put a boot in their ass" Toby Kieth bullshit and a little more growing up. I, for one, resent that those much older than myself have stolen the respect and admiration that being an American used to deserve and that my generation will probably not be alive by the time we manage to regain that respect.
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ok, some realism: (Score:5, Insightful)
Not true. First of all, the respect and love has changed (going up and down) throughout the history of the USA, and secondly, the respect and love has never been universal 'all over the world'. In fact, I don't think there has ever been a time where the USA wasn't hated or disrespected by at least *some* part of the world.
And even in the best of times, I'm not sure one could say any population of a foreign country really 'loved' americans. Of course, that would depend on your interpretation of 'love'; if you mean by that a general 'goodwill' or 'liking' it would be more correct then something like 'adoring'.
"This was illustrated by the response immediately after 9/11. Remember "We All Today are USA"? Remember people in every city on the planet marching, crying, holding vigils and saying they love America and that the attacks broke their hearts?"
No, I don't remember that. First of all, I doubt it was in 'every city on the planet' - that reeks hyperbole, actually. Secondly, in some cities, they were marching and crying allright, but rather of joy that the USA got hit. This s particular the case in a lot of cities in the Middle East, where the USA has been seen as an imperialistic agressor since the last decade.
There was a lot of sympathy in Europe and other countries, however. But that sympathy shouldn't be construed as 'love for america and amercans', but rather sympathy for the thousands of victims of such a brutal act, regardless of their country of origin.
"For a moment in time, we held the sympathy of a world that looked to us. And then we blew it."
True.
"Some people hate America, including some Americans."
Well, more correct would be to say that *a lot* of people hate americans. And even more *dislike* America, or at least its current government (and by extension sometimes half of its population). You find the former more with middle-east countries, but the latter is currently wide spread, even among traditional allies like the europeans.
"They love Americans and they loved the America that gave them hope. That stood for ideals, cared about peace and freedom and being both an example to and a beacon for other free civilizations world-wide.[snip]"
I think you're being way off here, in an over-optimistic, self-indulgent way. I would rather say that some parts of the world, especially Europe, was considerable more sympathetic towards the USA (the 'love' and 'hope' thing is largely hyperbole, sorry) after WW2. In fact, Europeans had a reasonable amount of sympathy for the USA under the Clinton-administration; I can't remember the same anti-amercanism-feelings back then (at least not to the huge degree it has today), and it's not like it's THAT long ago.
"Just because they criticize the country doesn't mean they hate it."
Well, large parts of middle-east populations do actually hate the country. Western countries are more moderate, but there too (at least nowadays) large parts hate the bush-government, and to an extension, part of the populace too (since half voted for bush, after all). Though I think 'despise' would be a better term than 'hate' where European feelings are concerned.
"try considering that just maybe we lost the sympathy, affection and respect of the entire world on our own watch and of our own accord"
True.
"Let's do a little less flag-waving[]"
Good idea. But note that your own post isn't completely void of such (slightly veiled) flag-waving.
I think, all by all, you did try to give an honest post about your own people/country, without trying to blame everyone else but the USA. In that respect, you are to be applauded, and way more sincere than a lot of other USA-posters around here.
That said, you still have some of that weird, self-flattering, narcistic worldview about the world and the place of the USA in it. I think that's largely due
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My butt (Score:4, Interesting)
The crux of the issue here, is that unlike in the EU where local moral and religious laws get some protection from EU decisions, the WTO frowns on morality-based protectionism. As well they should. What business is it of our government to dictate what someone can do with their money? Gambling restrictions in this country are sold as religion-based. A good portion of Christians think that gambling is immoral. The other portion thinks that gambling is a waste of money and disproportionatly affects the poor. I suspect the real reason is because the state likes having a monopoly on gaming (state lotteries) and doesn't want the free market driving their payout percentages.
Then again, I'm not your "average" Slashdotter. Even though I AM an economist, the internet is full of people who read Atlas Shrugged and think they have a degree from Wharton or something. So I may be wrong about your "average Slashdot user."
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Re:My butt (Score:5, Insightful)
The US gambling laws are economic protectionism hidden behind a thin veil of moralism and that's what the WTO is objecting to.
If they still want to ban gambling then they need ban it for everyone and remove the exceptions for US businesses.
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Re:Hmm.... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There's no logic involved here. The average slashdot user is anti-WTO unless they find *against* the US. Then suddenly everybody loves the WTO.
It's not a question of morality. It's just trendy to hate the US right now.
Projecting your own failings onto others, eh? It seems pretty trendy on /. these days to hallucinate some huge anti-American bias, and there's certainly no morality or logic involved in that attitude. Reality check: the US government is acting like a dick and people are calling us on it.
Do you actually have a logical, ethical defense of the US's behavior, or are you just another mindless drone (excuse me, I mean 'typical slashdotter')?