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Vonage Allowed to Sign New Customers

Posted by CowboyNeal on Sat Apr 07, 2007 09:04 AM
from the at-least-for-now dept.
Communications Government The Courts News
terrymr writes "The Court of Appeals for the federal circuit has stayed the injunction against Vonage pending their appeal." The appeals judge agreed with Vonage's argument that the amount of consumer churn that Vonage or any telco suffers from would surely mean disaster for their bottom line, were they denied an influx of new customers.
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story

Related Stories

[+] Your Rights Online: Vonage Loses VoIP Case With Verizon 150 comments
cdrudge writes "A federal jury on Thursday said Vonage Holdings Corp. violated 3 of 5 patents of Verizon Communications Inc. and ordered the upstart Internet-phone company to pay $58m in damages as well as 5.5% in royalty fees per month per customer. Verizon said it would seek an injunction to block Vonage from using its patented technology. The jury did reject Verizon's claim of $200m in damages and that Vonage deliberately violated Verizon's patents. As you might expect, Vonage said it would appeal the decision and seek a stay if an injunction is granted. Judge Claude Hilton set a hearing for March 23 on whether to grant an injunction."
[+] Your Rights Online: Vonage Barred From Using Verizon VoIP Patents 247 comments
thefiremonk writes "Bloomberg reports that U.S. District Judge Claude Hilton has issued a permanent injunction against Vonage. The goal: to stop allowing customers to make calls to standard phone lines. 'U.S. District Judge Claude Hilton approved Verizon's request for a block today in Alexandria, Virginia. Hilton said he won't sign the order before a hearing in two weeks on Vonage's request for a stay. A jury found March 8 that Vonage infringed three patents and should pay Verizon $58 million.' Does this spell doom for the already troubled Vonage? "
[+] Your Rights Online: Vonage Signs Deal to Escape Patent Infringement 60 comments
Tone Def writes "In the wake of a court injunction barring Vonage from infringing on three Verizon patents, the VoIP provider has signed an agreement with VoIP, Inc. to carry all Vonage calls over its network. Two of the Verizon patents Vonage was found to have infringed covered connecting VoIP calls to switched networks, so the agreement means Vonage is no longer infringing those patents. 'By signing the agreement with VoIP, Inc., Vonage has provided itself with a measure of protection against the injunction. VoIP, Inc. owns its own network, describing VOICEONE as the "first, seamless nationwide IP network." Perhaps most crucially from Vonage's standpoint, VoIP, Inc. claims to own the intellectual property around its network and services.'"
[+] Your Rights Online: The End for Vonage? 296 comments
TheRealSCA writes "The latest in Verizon vs. Vonage is in. The judge has basically stopped Vonage from accepting new customers. From the article: 'A judge issued an injunction Friday that effectively bars Internet phone carrier Vonage from signing up new customers as punishment for infringing on patents held by Verizon. Vonage's lawyers said the compromise injunction posted by U.S District Judge Hilton is almost as devastating as an injunction that would have affected Vonage's 2.2 million existing customers. "It's the difference of cutting off oxygen as opposed to the bullet in the head," Vonage lawyer Roger Warin said.'"
[+] Vonage Admits They Have No Workaround 345 comments
drachenfyre writes "It looks like Vonage has no workaround for their recent patent infringements. This means if a permanent stay isn't granted it is likely that it will be the end of the line for Vonage. What will happen if millions of phone customers suddenly lose their service? Their own filing to the court stated 'While Vonage has studied methods for designing around the patents, removal of the allegedly infringing technology, if even feasible, could take many months to fully study and implement.'"
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Vonage Allowed to Sign New Customers 47 Comments More /

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  • Got a lousy ISP?

    Can you hear me?

    Can you hear me now?

    Bad lines - not just for cell phones anymore!

      • Every once in a while someone will call into a radio talk show using a really crappy VoIP connection (Sympathetico base service, in most cases, with really lousy upload speed). They sound like they're talking from the bottom of a well with their head in a metal garbage can. Of course, their download speed is good enough that they can hear you, so they go "Must be your phone - I can hear you fine!"
  • Just in case Vonage goes under, I've got this Vtech modem for Vonage that works with a couple of those portable phones.

    How much rocket science will it take to make this work with other VoIP setups... uh, before Verizon's lawyers go after them, too?

    • How much rocket science will it take to make this work with other VoIP setups... uh, before Verizon's lawyers go after them, too?
      What's the point of using your existing VoIP box? Those things were made cheap enough to be throwaways. If you switch to another provider it's very likely you'll get one of their devices included free with your service.

      • What's the point of using your existing VoIP box?

        Because the little VoIP box from Vtech works fairly well with the two portable phones that work with it. Here's the version I have. [engadget.com] It's a dedicated system, so I'd like to reuse them (instead of buying 2 new portable phones) instead of tossing them out when Vonage gets gutted by Verizon.

  • Woo hoo (Score:5, Funny)

    by quokkapox (847798) <quokkapox@gmail.com> on Saturday April 07 2007, @09:18AM (#18645957)

    Woo hoo hoo

    Let them sign up all the new customers they want, as long as they reveal how I can expunge that damned jingle from my brain.

    • Re:Woo hoo (Score:4, Informative)

      by Dunbal (464142) on Saturday April 07 2007, @09:23AM (#18645991)
      as long as they reveal how I can expunge that damned jingle from my brain.

            It's not a jingle, it's actually a song by a japanese girl band called the "5 6 7 8's", and it existed long before the commercials. You can also hear it in the movie "Kill Bill".

      • It's not a jingle, it's actually a song by a japanese girl band called the "5 6 7 8's", and it existed long before the commercials. You can also hear it in the movie "Kill Bill".

        And that's a cover of the song performed in the 50's by the Rock-A-Teens - no relation to a later band of the same name.

      • Zestfully clean (Score:5, Funny)

        by quokkapox (847798) <quokkapox@gmail.com> on Saturday April 07 2007, @10:40AM (#18646565)

        Zestfully clean, you're not fully clean unless you're Zest-fully clean.

        These things run through my consciousness without my permission. They've invaded my brain via the commercial mass-media during my childhood and adolescence. They are inescapable and pernicious. I'd like to buy the world a Coke.

        Go ahead, tell me you've been raised in America and you don't have a corporate media advertising slogan running through the back of your mind now and then. Ancient Chinese secret, huh?

        • They've invaded my brain via the commercial mass-media during my childhood and adolescence. They are inescapable and pernicious. I'd like to buy the world a Coke.

          The damned song I can't get out of my head is "conjuction-junction, what's your function....hookin' up words..."... ARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH.

          I mostly watched tv on Saturday mornings. Boarding school 'n all that. Still it was really educational as a Canadian finding out how US laws got made. Funnily enough
  • On the one hand, Verizon with an idiot patent.

    On the other, Vonage thinks customers just naturally leave at random and not because they might be unhappy with their service.

    • On the one hand, Verizon with an idiot patent.

      I am not sure if "idiot" is the correct word, but I can't think of a better one.

      On the other, Vonage thinks customers just naturally leave at random and not because they might be unhappy with their service.

      Quite true.
      On one hand, the patent situation is out of hand. On the other hand, well, I have a tough time saying who I would want to win this lawsuit. (Although I am leaning towards Verizon.)

    • Any telco really does lose customers and signs up new customers continually the same way ISPs do. The reason why for a VOIP provider is that your internet connection really is the largest part of how good the service will be. If your upload bandwidth is under 128kbps, then pretty much any VOIP service will seem like garbage when it comes to quality.

      So, people with poor internet service will try Vonage and leave, others will try it and find it to be very good. You also have cases where people would lea

  • Ain't Gonna Help (Score:5, Insightful)

    by The Dobber (576407) on Saturday April 07 2007, @09:38AM (#18646077)
    How many people are going to sign up knowing there is a possibility that Vonage will go tits up in the near future?

    They're toast.

    • Re:Ain't Gonna Help (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 07 2007, @09:42AM (#18646103)
      How many people know that Vonage is in trouble? A handful of internet tech news readers only, I would wager...
      • True enough. Vonage will be OK in the short term provided the nightly news-es dont pick up the story and start hyping it.

        Brian Williams and his ilk start blabbing about it and it could very well go back from cutting off O2 to a bullet to the head as scared consumers start bailing like rats off an sinking ship.

        Personally I PRAY it survives. I love the $15 I pay for phone service. I dont call many ppl, but those I call most are L/d. And to make matters worse I am in a virtual black hole of cell service so I
    • I'm a Vonage subscriber. If they go (and nothing replaces them), big deal. So I lose VoIP phone service. I might not bother to renew it anyway, as little as I use it.

      Now losing 'Net connectivity? THAT would be bad.

      • Re:Ain't Gonna Help (Score:5, Insightful)

        by timeOday (582209) on Saturday April 07 2007, @10:24AM (#18646387)
        Well, personally I do care. I dropped my landline for Vonage a couple years ago, and I'm happy enough. I couldn't speak to their customer service as I've never tried to use it, but the actual phone service seems fine enough to me. Granted, Vonage hasn't been very dynamic about introducing new features to keep people excited (why can't I set up separate voice mail boxes for family members?) but I do think it's saving me money. Mostly I just dread the hassle of finding a new provider and transferring my telephone number, what a pain.

        Fundamentally, I don't even see why I'm still stuck paying a phone bill at all. I don't pay an email bill or a filesharing bill.

        • Call me, and I'll explain it. (Score:4, Informative)

          by ScentCone (795499) on Saturday April 07 2007, @12:46PM (#18647809)
          Fundamentally, I don't even see why I'm still stuck paying a phone bill at all. I don't pay an email bill or a filesharing bill.

          So, you were hoping that people would know how to reach you by dialing your IP address, perhaps? Who do you think maintains the ability to route calls, from both VoIP and 'analog' networks/carriers, to the number that's assigned to you? Should they be doing that as charity? Do you pay for the IP address you're using? A phone number is pretty much the same thing, only static. I'm guessing your home IP address is probably dynamic, as far as that goes.

          Ever use your VoIP service to call a local business that's on POTS? Who do you think bridges that connection, the tooth fairy? And if you've got a technical solution for that process that doesn't cost anything or use any infrastructure, why aren't you sharing that with the rest of the billions of people with hard phone numbers?
        • My experience with Vonage, about 2 years, has been good. Call quality is very good and availability seems more a question of my ISP than Vonage. I keep a POTS 2nd line but I use Vonage (and an out-of-state business number) for all long distance. The main advantage over Skype is the ability to use regular phones, so you don't have to keep a computer going, buy a special phone, or drag the laptop around the house just to use the telephone. Their no-extra-cost voicemail and caller ID are nice and their cal
        • I've had a Vonage box for several years, and I've used a bunch more for phone banking activities. Service has been excellent, especially compared with my Verizon POTS experience.

          I've also had occasion to call Vonage service twice, once to inquire about how many Vonage boxes could be placed on a single cable modem connection and another time when my Vonage box stopped working with a strange sort of ARP resolution failure. In the first case I received surprisingly precise and helpful information with minim
        • Also a Vonage customer here - I've recently decided to drop them over ongoing voice quality issues. As others have pointed out, the problem is likely my cable provider ISP and not Vonage, however the two go hand-in-hand. Without another cable ISP, I need to use DSL. As soon as DSL enters the equation, it is cheaper to go with a POTS line. Despite my inquries with AT&T about "unbundled" DSL so I could keep Vonage, it was less expensive to get a straight metered line with AT&T ($6.00) + DSL ($20-4

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by bigpat (158134)
        Sunrocket [sunrocket.com] and Packet8 [packet8.net] look like promising VOIP providers. I'll be switching to one of these shortly. I never liked the idea of Vonage being the 100 Lb gorilla anyway, they seemed to be a good example of the proverb about keeping 'all your eggs in one basket'. And as The big player in independent PSTN VOIP interoperability they also seemed taylor made for Verizon to come along and kill them off as an example to others, so they could keep their market position.

        Also seems that if this Verizon patent is vali
        • As you note, Vonage is a (relatively) big player and therefore the biggest target for Verizon. Why wouldn't the 2 alternatives you mention, whose offerings seem very much like Vonage's, be soon driven from the business?
          • Verizon has to prove its case again in court if it wants to go after other VOIP to PSTN providers. They probably use different technology so they would have to prove that it was also infringing. Really I think the case is absurd to begin with. That a computer can map from one directory to another using a common attribute and route information accordingly should be considered obvious, regardless of how big your revenue is. If the US is any less corrupt than Zimbabwe, then eventually this case should be ov
    • Note that the injunction would just stop the sale of new accounts, not stop them from doing business. According to the end of this article [betanews.com], they already have a deal with VOIP, Inc. to utilize their network if the Vonage network gets shut down.
      • Debunked. The VOIP, Inc. deal is just a routine termination agreement. Vonage has 30 or so of these in effect at any time. No effect on the Verizon pickle, unfortunately.

    • Re:Ain't Gonna Help (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jambarama (784670) <jambarama@NOspaM.gmail.com> on Saturday April 07 2007, @10:17AM (#18646329) Homepage Journal

      How many people are going to sign up knowing there is a possibility that Vonage will go *** up in the near future?

      I can answer that. All of the people who don't know about the patent issues. Like my parents and most of my friends. I took a brief unscientific poll of the dozen people around me. About 3/4ths knew what VOIP was, and of those most knew Vonage. And of everyone, no one had heard of the patent dispute with Verizon.

      I think we often overestimate how much the general public knows/cares about this stuff.
        • Yeah, I have a profanity filter greasemonkey script installed, so I don't even know what the word was.

      • I think we often overestimate how much the general public knows/cares about this stuff.
        This is very true. Name almost any issue discussed on slashdot, and you'll probably find that people either haven't heard, don't care, or heard only fleeting details. I think we work each other up, and convince ourselves of the importance of these issues in terms of the bigger picture. The reality is different, and a little disheartening.

    • I've been thinking about signing up with Vonage for a while now, but just haven't gotten around to it.

      When I heard about the injunction, I went right over and signed up, since I figured it would be a few hours until it went into effect, even if it didn't get stayed (which it soon did).

      If Vonage goes out of business, it'll take a while. And I can always switch to my cable company's VOIP. I had been dithering b/c my cable's VOIP is twice as expensive, but it's supposed to be better quality (since they u

    • I did. Not even looking for another phone provider either, not until I no longer have a dial tone. I despise Verizon more than any other company. I'm with anyone against them.
  • I'm glad to see that Vonage can start to resell services. It's a shame that the technology behind it gets wrapped up in patents and court cases. I guess I'm too much of an open source, let me fix it kinda guy to understand why certain patents are given to companies in the technology world. I have used Vonage in the past and it's not a bad system. Yea it has kinks. But we are forging forward to the day where there are not hard lines and cellphone. this type of technology should be owned by just one company.

    • Companies don't do anything that doesn't make them money. They've got a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to make a profit. They won't share unless they'll make money from sharing, or at least not lose money because of sharing.

      While corporations may legally be people, they have none of the good attributes that people have, like altruism, empathy or selflessness.

  • The appeals judge agreed with Vonage's argument that the amount of consumer churn that Vonage or any telco suffers from would surely mean disaster for their bottom line, were they denied an influx of new customers.

    ... if they offered good enough service to actually have some customer loyalty and not spend all their days chasing around the customers from provider to provider, looking for someone that won't give them the shaft. If you have that much turnover with your customers that you are slamming them

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by sweatyboatman (457800)
      You seem to have missed the Vonage or any telco part of that quote. Customer turnover is cause by a lot of things, not just unsatisfactory service. People move, lose their jobs, get a good deal from their Cable company, etc. Yes, Vonage's customer service is mediocre at best and their cancellation policies and procedures are screwy. But Vonage as a whole is not particularly worse than Comcast, Verizon, or any other telephone provider.

      The point here is that Vonage offers the same call quality and crappy
    • You got charged $300 for an ETF by Vonage? You might want to read the ToS. This is from Vonage's web site:

      3.6 Disconnection Fee (Does Not Apply to Business Plus Customers). You will be charged a disconnection fee of $39.99 per voice line if your Service is disconnected, subject to applicable state and local laws. However, if your Service was activated on or after February 1, 2007 and is disconnected after two (2) years following your activation date, the disconnection fee is waived. If your Service was acti

      • That's like saying that you can't complain about getting anally raped, just because they didn't insert their entire shaft. One way or the other you're still getting fucked.

        Perhaps if they'd provided some sort of added value over my cellphone service they would have been able to turn that profit on me. However, they didn't. So - why am *I* the one expected to pay a fee? I'm not the one who sells a subpar service with an annoying-as-fuck jingle.

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