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The Elevator Effect In Second Life

Journal written by razpones (1077227) and posted by kdawson on Sun May 06, 2007 07:12 AM
from the going-up dept.
The Internet Role Playing (Games) Science
There is an good video on NPR about how real human reactions translate to the virtual world. It's interesting in view of the question posted here about rape in Second Life. The video covers a little experiment in SL where a reporter gets together with a psychologist to see if some unspoken human rules apply in the virtual world — such as staring or standing too close to someone. Perhaps surprisingly, in this world where you can be or do just about anything, you can't break these unspoken rules with impunity.
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[+] Your Rights Online: Is Virtual Rape a Crime? 690 comments
cyberianpan writes "Wired is carrying commentary on the story that Brussels police have begun an investigation into a citizen's allegations of rape in Second Life. For reasons of civil liberty & clarity we'd like to confine criminal law to physical offenses rather than thought crimes but already threats, menace & conspiracy count as crimes. Could we see a situation where our laws extend?"
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  • The video covers a little experiment in SL where a reporter gets together with a psychologist to see if some unspoken human rules apply in the virtual world -- such as staring or standing too close to someone. Perhaps surprisingly, in this world where you can be or do just about anything, you can't break these unspoken rules with impunity.

    Well, yeah, you can, as long as you don't get caught, if you know what I mean.
  • you can break all these rules with impunity because there is no real consequence, unlike in actual life.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Breaking them seems to have the same consequence as in real life, people get annoyed.
      If you would go and stare at some stranger in real life, it's not like he's gonna call he cops or knock you down or something (at least not with regular alcohol-levels).
      • Exactly my point. Please explain how someone getting annoyed in a game relates to someone smacking you in the face with real pain and blood/teeth loss for you.

        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          by Urza9814 (883915)
          Still damages your in-game reputation, just like it would damage your real-life reputation. As the GP said, someone won't smack you in the face in real life normally. They'll just get pissed, make fun of you, avoid you, and tell other people about it, causing them to do the same. Basically, kill social interaction. How is that NOT possible in a virtual world?

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Timesprout (579035)

            Basically, kill social interaction. How is that NOT possible in a virtual world
            So no actual consequence as I said earlier and nothing to stop the offender taking the 15 seconds it takes to create another online identity. Devastating, just devastating, no wonder everyone is so polite online.

            • Re:Yes you can (Score:5, Insightful)

              by Hemogoblin (982564) on Sunday May 06 2007, @10:25AM (#19010521)
              You're equating "non-physical" to "non-consequential". Think about that for a minute and you'll realize how silly that conclusion is.

                • Re:Yes you can (Score:4, Interesting)

                  by sumdumass (711423) on Sunday May 06 2007, @10:29PM (#19016323) Journal
                  I thought that at one time. Then one night after a function, i was having drinks and a few of the others from the function was there.

                  Well, to make a long story short, they started talking about some asshat in an online game they all played and after chiming in, I found out they were talking about me. Or at least a character name I used everyone in a while when I wanted to piss people off.

                  I don't think they knew they were talking about me because some words were pointing out that I wouldn't be having a good time if they did. The entire night i had to wonder if they knew who i was or was it just coincidence. I was usually drunk during the times I used that name so i could have done way more then i remembered. I kept thinking they were coming over to start a fight whenever I heard their voice chatting away close to me.

                  Anyways, I didn't sweat it much but I never went online just to piss people off after that. The chances of meeting someone from the same game without organizing it is unreal, or at least I thought. I think the only thing that grouped us together outside the game was a charity function I got roped into going to. It wasn't in my town and they weren't in their hometowns. But there we were all together from different parts of the state and had something in common without trying to know it.

    • Re:Yes you can (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Lumpy (12016) on Sunday May 06 2007, @08:58AM (#19009901) Homepage
      Problem is , people think that when they are in their car they also can happily break these rules. Even though they know it's not just rude anymore but outright dangerous. Standing-too-close = tailgaiting. you can KILL people with that behaivoir. and honestly, upset the guy in front of you and he can jam on the breaks and teach you a lesson.

      All that studies like this prove is that if you are not close enough to punch the person in the face for their bad behaivoir or to keep them under control, fellow humanity becomes raging jerks. Something that almost all of us old farts learned a while ago.

        • Re:Yes you can (Score:4, Insightful)

          by chihowa (366380) on Sunday May 06 2007, @02:25PM (#19012281)
          I tapped my brakes when someone was tailgating me once and they rear-ended me. They got a few points on their license and ended up having their license suspended over it (the points for their at-fault accident and the points they had previously added up). Their insurance paid for the damage to my car (probably hiked their rates a bit), which I was getting rid of anyway. Overall, it was a very satisfying experience for me, to see them get screwed by their own carelessness.

          I still do it. I hope to meet you one day.

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by StikyPad (445176)
            I don't really like having my car damaged and/or dealing with the inconvenience of driving a POS rental with cigarette burns and god-knows-what stains on the seats. It's very rare that I have anyone behind me to begin with, because I'm just not a slow driver, but in the event that I'm on, say, a two lane road with someone in front of me and a tailgater behind me, I tend to just tap the brakes enough to illuminate the brake lights. Usually that works, but if it doesn't, I do the brake hard/accelerate hard
  • Humans have human nature and human psychological responses. Film at 11.

    Slashdot has never had a great signal to noise ratio, but it sure as hell is getting worse by the day. What a useless waste of bytes!

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by MarkByers (770551)
        I'm sick of people whinging about people whinging about slashdot on slashdot on Slashdot. If you don't like it, don't use it.
      • I going to classify this entire thread of conversation as the "cascading vomit effect" or CVE. You see it from time to time on the dot. It's akin to dropping fake puke from the balcony at a movie theater while making a retching sound. That will cause one or two folks to puke, which then dominoes to the rest of the theater patrons and pretty soon everybody in the theater is puking. Let's hope it doesn't get that far here.

  • Yeah, I get the same feeling here (Score:5, Funny)

    by niceone (992278) * on Sunday May 06 2007, @07:20AM (#19009489) Journal

    I get the same feeling here: I'll post something, and then someone else will post just below me, and it'll be stuck there right next to my post FOREVER.

    Freaks me out.

  • Not really surprising (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 06 2007, @07:20AM (#19009491)
    SL is not really unique or different to any other aspect of the online world. People in forums giving others volley after volley of abuse for very little reason. If it was in the real world and you had to look someone in the eye you react very differently to the online world where I am sitting at a desk typing on a computer which nobody else knows about. Second life isn't showing some unique symptom here, it is simply a 3D and graphical representation of the same type of behaviour that has been occurring since the online world began back in the BB days.

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by z-man (103297)
        Ah yes, the September that never ended (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September)

  • To many second life articles (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bjourne (1034822) on Sunday May 06 2007, @07:23AM (#19009503)
    Ok, Second Life may or may not be pretty cool, but why is there one Slashdot article about it every two or three days? World of Warcraft is at least ten times as popular but does not get anywhere near the same coverage as Second Life does. It smells fishy.

    For example, there was this article about a woman offering sex [clubsi.com] for 5000 World of Warcraft gold. It did not reach Slashdot. That ten times as funny and definitely more "interesting" than some kind of psychological experiment. :)
    • That is nothing more than prostitution.

      • Re:To many second life articles (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Tribbin (565963) on Sunday May 06 2007, @07:56AM (#19009611) Homepage
        To me she sounds like a girl who knows exactly what she wants, and what she wants to 'pay' for it.

        (leaving out that they are going to see each other again and obviously both enjoyed 'the transaction')

        Now what's wrong with that?

        • Re:To many second life articles (Score:5, Interesting)

          by MarkByers (770551) on Sunday May 06 2007, @08:29AM (#19009751) Homepage Journal
          > To me she sounds like a girl who knows exactly what she wants, and what she wants to 'pay' for it.

          > Now what's wrong with that?

          I didn't say there is anything "wrong" with it, I just said it was prostitution... which it is. Prostitution is perfectly legal in many countries. You can make up your own mind whether it is wrong or not.

            • Re:To many second life articles (Score:4, Interesting)

              by NMerriam (15122) <NMerriam@artboy.org> on Sunday May 06 2007, @03:32PM (#19012785) Homepage

              "...nothing more than prostitution" you said. That implies a bias: that prostitution is low. It may be unintentional, but there you go.


              I interpreted it is meaning it is "nothing more [interesting] than prostitution" -- ie, there's no particularly compelling reason it would be featured on slashdot because there's no novel social or technical thing involved. Perhaps your reading is the one with unintentional bias?
    • Well one is a real scientific experiment and the other is exploiting people for virtual money. Slashdot has a lot of articles in the past for Virtual Money and what there worth is. This is a more of a study of human nature and how it responds to the virtuatl world. WoW unlike second life is based on a fantasy world where some you are dealing with things that are not your species. While second life it is mostly humans you are dealing with.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by dr.badass (25287)
      World of Warcraft is at least ten times as popular but does not get anywhere near the same coverage as Second Life does.

      There just isn't much "new" going on in connection with World of Warcraft. Second Life has considerably more novelty, hence it gets more coverage. Even your example, the whorecraft story, may be "funny", but it isn't new or interesting at all -- does anyone really think that hasn't been going on for ages? Besides, if you're looking for "teh lulz", try Digg or Fark or Reddit instead. Sl

    • Re:To many second life articles (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Ash-Fox (726320) on Sunday May 06 2007, @09:19AM (#19010015) Homepage

      Ok, Second Life may or may not be pretty cool, but why is there one Slashdot article about it every two or three days? World of Warcraft is at least ten times as popular but does not get anywhere near the same coverage as Second Life does. It smells fishy.
      Warcraft is a MMORPG, Second life is a virtual world/reality. There is a real economy on Second life, real businesses like IBM, AMD etc. exist there and invest money into it. Politicians even go on it and run campaigns (I wonder if that really helps).

      I imagine the fact there is some real world interest in Second life beyond playing a game being one of the main reasons why it keeps popping up on Slashdot.

      For example, there was this article about a woman offering sex for 5000 World of Warcraft gold. It did not reach Slashdot.
      Dear God, next we'll find out that people are offering sex on MUDs and MUCKs!

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by brkello (642429)
        I honestly don't think people on Slashdot are all that interested in it. I think they astroturf this site. Most people check out Second Life...find it fairly boring and poorly implemented and walk away. People are too busy playing World of Warcraft to care to post articles about WoW. In Second Life, there is real money involved so it makes sense that they try to sucker more people in to it. I think that is why I don't like it. It reeks of the real world. I play games to escape the real world...not en

  • The Elevator Effect? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Bazman (4849) on Sunday May 06 2007, @07:24AM (#19009507) Journal
    Can you fart in Second Life now?
  • From about 10 years of experiences of online games...

    The video covers a little experiment in SL where a reporter gets together with a psychologist to see if some unspoken human rules apply in the virtual world

    No... And a "no" to if many people care for that either.
    SL may be "special", cool or whatever, but it's still just a game with awful graphics and a lot of virtual hookers.

  • Some unspoken human rules DO apply (Score:5, Funny)

    by evilsofa (947078) on Sunday May 06 2007, @08:04AM (#19009639)
    "if some unspoken human rules apply in the virtual world"

    Do you know how annoying it is for a ten foot tall neon pink ogre to jump up and down in front of your face and not stop until you log out?

    My friends do!

  • Obligatory... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 06 2007, @08:06AM (#19009653)
    I put on my robe and wizard hat.
  • I'd be interested to see the same experiment undertaken in WoW, where game mechanic feature to follow people are built in. In any case, since the player view is 3rd person, the movements of the avatar don't correspond directly to the view of the player (camera), which should lesson the perception of a social faux-pas, no? Also, I wonder if the delineation into strict sides also lessens the effect - a player may be a stranger, but he's on your side, so to speak.

  • Only 5 gold a piece ; protect yourself now before you get raped ...

  • Virtual worlds don't make us different... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dusty123 (538507) on Sunday May 06 2007, @09:38AM (#19010145)
    The really interesting thing about such virtual, anonymous worlds like Second Life is, that although we *could* be someone else, we decide not to. Newbies in these world often try to be a completely different character, however, over time they get very, very close to their real character.

    I'd say, it's quite simple: In normal life, we chose who we are. Most people have fixed patterns which affect their behavior and therefore their daily life. Over time, these patterns get more and more restricting and make people lose their authenticity.

    So, there's certainly a wish to break out, and that's what these virtual worlds promise us - but changing or breaking patterns can never be done by changing worlds. We see that every day, when people change their jobs, their partners or their homes - after all, most end up the same.

    Even if there's a "Third Life" and a "Fourth Life", maybe hundreds of them, they will in the end be all the same, simply as we are who we are.

    However, if we are shaken up so much, that we have to drop some patterns, or really decide to make a change, this and all other worlds will be different - instantly...

    • Re:Second Life (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Shihar (153932) on Sunday May 06 2007, @09:20AM (#19010027)
      Second Life is like cyberpunk hell. Want to know what Second Life looks like? Read Snowcrash, then take out anything at all cool about that world. It is one big unending strip mall comprised mostly of casinos, sex shops, and brothels.

      Second Life is in no danger of becoming anything bigger. It is messy, awkward to use, and has little interesting going on in it. Something more interesting might grow from the original idea (which in truth, is not all that original), but it has a long way to go before it even begins to touch the sort of mass media acceptance of games like World of Warcraft.
      • but it has a long way to go before it even begins to touch the sort of mass media acceptance of games like World of Warcraft.

        The interesting thing is that SL is the only online virtual world (for want of a better term) in which inhabitants can actually make a lasting change in the world which is tangible for other players.

        In There you can introduce new textures or models at an exorbitant cost and at risk of losing $$$ when your texture or model is rejected. Oh and they approve models which cannot be placed
    • Points for doing your research. I play SL. And I use Linux exclusively. There's a Linux-native client for SL... and believe it or not, the Linux-native client actually works better than the Windows client as of right now. Fewer known bugs, and some of the known bugs that affect Windows do not exist in the Linux client.

      *shrugs* gotta love it when zealots spout off about shit they don't know about, and don't even bother to lift a finger to confirm their facts first. You're a perfect example of why most people

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