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MacBooks to Feature iPhone's Multi-Touch?

Posted by CmdrTaco on Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:50 AM
from the don't-touch-me-there dept.
Gadgets Lover writes "According to CrunchGear's 'trusted source' that the upcoming MacBooks which are expected to be released around October will support the iPhone's multi-touch technology built into their touchpads. The feature will be built into the touchpads, allowing you to navigate through your notebook's files, applications, etc. the same way you can on the iPhone. (Yes, I know you can already scroll with them, that's nothing new. I'm talking about all the other finger gestures that can be done on the iPhone's screen) On June 20th, CrunchGear reported, "The upcoming MacBooks will be about half the thickness of current models (which would be quite the feat) and they'll be made from new plastics/materials"."
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  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2007, @10:52AM (#19707595)
    The next MacBooks will also be powered by sunshine, float in mid-air, and cure cancer! Thank you Steve Jobs!
  • by Chairboy (88841) on Sunday July 01 2007, @10:54AM (#19707623) Homepage
    Prediction: Within a year, all Apple products with displays will have multi-touch. Laptops, external monitors, iPods, the whole shebang. Sure, most people won't use it all in the beginning. The UIs we have today aren't set up for it, neither are our office spaces. But Apple will bet the farm and just make is a Standard Feature on the bet that while the demand doesn't exist NOW, it'll appear out of whole cloth once it's so ubiquitous.

    They did it w/ USB. They did it with mice.

    "Blah blah greasy fingerprints on monitors" Yeah, anyone with half a brain can think of 10 reasons why this is dumb. But it's the crazy guy in the back of the auditorium who's going to figure out how to get rich off of it, and in doing so will make the standard transition from 'crazy wacked out goofball' to 'eccentric visionary'.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      They said trackpads, which would be a pretty good compromise actually. Wouldn't have to move your hands far from the keyboard.

      Would make more sense if the Finder CoverFlow feature allowed touching and dragging the images rather than requiring a scrollbar (the way it is in iTunes now). It could be a usability improvement to allow that sort of scrolling in other documents, like webpages.

      If this is coming, then the changes are in Leopard now. Maybe some WWDC attendees know the answer.

      I just looked at the ne
      • by MoxFulder (159829) on Sunday July 01 2007, @11:38AM (#19708077) Homepage
        The Synaptics [wikipedia.org] touchpads used on practically all notebook computers already support multi-touch features. These just have to be appropriately configured with software.

        For example, using the Xorg drivers and GTK configuration applet gsynaptics [sourceforge.jp], you can set up a touchpad to do different actions based on double-tapping, triple-tapping, scrolling via linear and circular dragging, etc.

        So if Apple figures out how to make an intuitive user interface out of touchpad motions, that's pretty cool, and other operating systems should be able to adopt similar features quickly!
        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          So if Apple figures out how to make an intuitive user interface out of touchpad motions, that's pretty cool, and other operating systems should be able to adopt similar features quickly!

          As the article mentioned, they already do support scrolling with a two-fingered gesture. I can see the pinch gesture that the iPhone uses for zoom being pretty useful as well. I'm less certain about the 'flicking' gesture for scrolling in the iPhone, although I haven't tried it myself.

        • by Space cowboy (13680) * on Sunday July 01 2007, @12:19PM (#19708419) Journal
          Unless I'm being dense, none of the things you mention require multi-touch. They're just single-touch gesture detection routines. Looking at the author's website reveals that the only multi-touch support is two-finger or three-finger taps, and that this is not supported on all models.

          It's not clear from his site which models *do* implement true multi-touch, or even whether what he has done requires it. It could be a timing-related kludge if all it supports is taps and not drags. (ie: if I get 2 or 3 clicks within 5 ms, I'll assume the user did those simultaneously and send event X not event Y)

          The multi-touch touchpads on a Macbook(Pro) can scroll any window that has the mouse within its borders by:
          • pressing one finger onto the touchpad
          • *simultaneously* dragging a second finger up and down.
          That's multi-touch. And there's no reason why window-resizing or other manipulation couldn't be done...

          Simon.
        • by John Whitley (6067) on Sunday July 01 2007, @01:46PM (#19709141) Homepage

          other operating systems should be able to adopt similar features quickly!
          Doubtful. This is more than a case of "just software"; it's a sophisticated collaboration of hardware plus software. Apple bought a company called Fingerworks, founded by Wayne Westerman and his Ph.D. advisor based on his doctoral research[1]. They sold mouse-pad sized touchpad devices with gesture recognition as well as zero-force keyboards with integrated mousing/gesturing. These multi-touch devices effectively do low-resolution EMF imaging of the hand near the surface. No "mis-touches", the keyboard didn't generate false hits from "resting" on the surface, etc.

          Fingerworks vanished off the face of the internet a couple of years back. Apple quietly bought the company, its patents, and and the key researchers and engineers. Since then, they've been puting the Apple shine on their technology since then. Much to the likely delight of the "Fingerfans" [dreamhosters.com] the iPhone is the first product to ship with this technology since Fingerworks' was bought.

          It *might* be possible to hack something together with a synaptics pad, but the hardware itself is likely deficient to do full-on multitouch. See section 1.3 of Westerman's thesis, linked below, esp. the pre-Fingerworks prototype hardware "producing a 50 frames per second (fps) stream of proximity images." I note that the Fingerworks devices connected via USB, but had on-device processing and firmware notably richer than what's in a simple touchpad. That alone may spell death to attempts at pure host-side multitouch with a "dumb" touchpad.

          [1] PDF: Hand Tracking, Finger Identification, and Chordic Manipulation on a Multi-Touch Surface. [udel.edu]
    • Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)

      Sit at your desk. Now, the whole time you're normally at your computer, keep your hand suspended in the air touching the screen. This is why we don't see ubiquitous touch screens on computers. Hammer, problem, nail, etc.
      • So, because some people can't use a technology, nobody should be able to?

        Lots of people can't eat corn, maybe we should ban everything with corn in it too? And nuts. With the war, how many people are missing an arm? Best not make cars with stick-shifts...

        I'm not saying ignore people with disabilities (many of my friends have serious disabilities), but you can't make the world one-size fits all. And, as much as blind people might not enjoy the new iPhone, deaf people may enjoy being able to send email, p

  • ... the Mactablet? I need a decent tablet, and Apple seems to be lining itself up for the ideal position to release one in. Decent touchpads, thin computers... logical, no?
  • by WrongSizeGlass (838941) on Sunday July 01 2007, @10:56AM (#19707635) Homepage
    ... I multi-touch a MacBook in a Apple Store I get dirty looks from the employees.
  • My Thoughts (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MBCook (132727) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Sunday July 01 2007, @10:57AM (#19707643) Homepage

    I have the last revision of the MacBook Pros that just came out. It's a great little laptop. It wouldn't surprise me too much if they did have multi-touch trackpads in the new Macs. It wouldn't surprise me if it was in mine and could be added with a software update. After all, they've supposed detecting when there are two fingers for a while, how much harder can it be to detect the stretching and squeezing motions? Apple has silently updated things before. For example, the cameras in the latest MacBook Pros are 1.3MP instead of 0.3MP. It's not exposed in software, but it's there.

    The 1/2 the thickness thing? Never. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see that. That would be amazing. But I just don't think it's really possible with the MacBooks. Now if you got rid of the hard drive and optical driver, you'd have a better shot... but I'd still peg this as very unlikely.

      • by dal20402 (895630) * <dal20402@mac . c om> on Sunday July 01 2007, @01:21PM (#19708957) Journal

        The 17" could get 2.5mm thinner. They could use the 9.5mm optical drive from the 15" models. Since the 17" has enough room for the optical drive to fit completely under the right palm rest, it doesn't have to fit under the keyboard like it does on the 15".

        But the 17" is already too flexible... to make a 21mm thick 17" model work you'd almost have to have new case materials.

        I think you're right, though, that the big gains will come from flat solid state HDs. I don't know how they'll deal with the optical drive issue in the models (all but the rumored MBP subnotebook) that need an optical drive.

        In any case, it's time for new MBP form factors. The Al enclosure has to be one of the all-time best notebook designs -- it's still more functional and useful than most others -- but, for crying out loud, the 17" version was introduced in early 2003, and hasn't appreciably changed since!

  • Adding a few gestures to the multi-touch tackpad seems likely. Another iPhone technology that will undoubtedly appear in future Apple displays (of all kinds, iMac, laptops, and free standing) will be higher pixel densities. Leopard must be complete before such screens can be well used by consumer, so we won't see this before October.
  • by niceone (992278) * on Sunday July 01 2007, @11:01AM (#19707681) Journal
    I for one look forward to giving two fingers to the new MacBooks!
  • It recently struck me how large the MBP's trackpad is. It's more than twice the area of the pad on my Dell D600. Multi-touch would be useless on a small trackpad, but the MBP's looks to be large enough to make it practical.
  • by supabeast! (84658) on Sunday July 01 2007, @11:15AM (#19707839)
    Given that the current touchpads already have limited capabilities to sense the placement of multiple fingertips, Apple could probably implement some of the technology in Leopard and only release it in the final build. It would certainly be a great way to get a lot of free press.
  • and screen for a long time now. See Lenovo ThinkPad X60 for example.
    • Multitouch there refers to something else though; namely, the ability to use the screen either with a stylus (active digitizer, btw, not passive digitizers) or with a finger. This was a limitation with active digitizer screens; that is, they could only be used with a powered stylus, but touching the screen with your finger, etc. wouldn't register anything. Passive digitizers could work with a finger or a regular stylus, but they have their own weaknesses (not nearly as much control as with an active digit
  • I personally think that the next iPod will be rougly half the size of the ones we see today. After all, the next step for Apple is to make the scroll wheel obsolete by integrating all the necessities into the screen.

    I think it's unlikely for Apple to release an iPod with a screen as big as the iPhone, simply because there is no need for so much information on a simple music player.
  • by JimDaGeek (983925) on Sunday July 01 2007, @11:30AM (#19707977)
    I have a late 2006 Macbook with the Core Due (should have waited for the Core 2, oh well) and a Core 2 Duo iMac. Love them both. The Macbook has a scroll feature I just can't live without. Use one finger on the mouse pad and it moves the cursor as normal. Use TWO fingers and you can scroll any windows content vertically/horizontally. Every time I have to use a regular old laptop, I really miss this nice feature. These new features should be pretty nice additions to the Macbook

    With that said, they only thing that bugs me about the Macbook I have is how hot the bottom gets. I had to buy a laptop pad which is a pain to have to remember to bring with me. In constrast, my Core 2 iMac is always cool and very silent. Are the newer models of Macbooks cooler so you can comfortably keep them on your lap?
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      better still - will the new macbooks have the Santa Rosa platform that is known to consume less power and generate less heat? and will the screens be LED like the Pros? multitouch is cool and all but is a very minor upgrade, as has always been the case with MacBooks. some love for Cinderella too, please!

      OT, is it just me or am I seeing more Apple stuff being leaked out pre-release? whatever happened to the ultra-secret keep-it-under--wraps-until-very-last-minute Apple obsession?

    • by MsGeek (162936) on Sunday July 01 2007, @01:03PM (#19708789) Homepage Journal
      If you have the first version of the MacBook, you can't really do much other than software hacks and keeping your MacBook on a cooler pad to keep it cool. The Core 2 Duo was a major improvement heat-wise...it actually *is* a laptop rather than a lap cooker.

      The MacBook Pro also has LED backlighting rather than fluorescent backlighting. This is very significant in that the backlight becomes pretty much immortal...it will last as long as the computer does. With fluorescents, eventually you have to replace the fluorescent tube, which is a pain. I'm sure that eventually the MacBook will get it, but not just yet.
  • by antifoidulus (807088) on Sunday July 01 2007, @11:49AM (#19708163) Homepage Journal
    Apple had a "Town hall" meeting with all employees on Thursday to kick off this iPhone thing. Finally, we got at least some confirmation that Apple is doing stuff with the macs again as Steve said, "The first leg is the Mac business, which Steve addressed by saying that they have the "best Macs" in the new product pipeline ever right now, and that the stuff coming out in the next year is "off the charts."

    So if this is true(hard to believe the half size thing, but..) we should be seeing them soon I would wager. Though I doubt the macbooks would get a feature that their pro bretheren do not have first...
  • by SuperBanana (662181) on Sunday July 01 2007, @11:57AM (#19708225)

    gestures that can be done on the iPhone's screen) On June 20th, CrunchGear reported, "The upcoming MacBooks will be about half the thickness of current models (which would be quite the feat) and they'll be made from new plastics/materials"."

    Hopefully they'll be more serviceable, too. Personal best for disassembling a G4 iBook to get to the hard drive? 45 minutes, and that was after doing it three times. The screw count is staggering; one heat shield had TWELVE screws. Most of the screws lack threadlocker (or it isn't strong enough) and the screws are so loose they are almost ready to fall out after 3 years of daily use.

    With IBM/Lenovo and Dell laptops (and probably many others), the drive can be accessed with one or two screws and they slide out of the chassis, even on their smallest+thinnest models. Why can't Apple do the same, especially given how Apple continues to supply mostly Toshiba drives, which have the highest failure rates of laptop drives? Even setting aside drive-manufacturer failure rates, drives are the most failure-prone components in any computer (well, save video cables and screen hinges, again in Powerbooks and iBooks.) I've never seen an Airport card or memory fail, yet they're the easiest to get to on almost any Apple laptop.

    • Have you worked on a Macbook yet? The hard drive and RAM are trivial to get to. Pop the battery, unscrew one panel (three screws), and either flip a lever or pull on a strap.
    • Have you used the new MacBooks? The hard drive and RAM can both be swapped in a total of 5 minutes. Remove the battery, undo two screws, and you have the HD. Pull out the lever, and you have the RAM. That's it.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        With IBM/Lenovo and Dell laptops (and probably many others), the drive can be accessed with one or two screws and they slide out of the chassis, even on their smallest+thinnest models.

        This is particularly useful when "recycling" a laptop that's being replaced. I get a new laptop every 2-3 years to get the latest features and performance stuff, and when I do, I pull the HDD out of the old laptop and set it aside, as a "just in case" if I discover some important data that I forgot.

        Using Dell laptops at our company, this is a VERY painless process - it takes seconds to pull the old HDD, stick in the new one, and start loading Windows. Why wouldn't Apple do this?

        Because Macs had target disk mode for ages?

  • CPU to monitor? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by johkir (716957) <jokirby@vmth.ucdavi[ ]du ['s.e' in gap]> on Sunday July 01 2007, @12:32PM (#19708529)
    I wonder if Apple will move the CPU and associated bridge to the top half of the laptop, so heat vents up and out the top, a la the iMac. That might drop the size by dropping a relatively big fan wheel, but I don't think there can be much more of a drop in thickness while still including an optical drive and all the necessary ports to the outside world.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      Not likely, that would almost certainly make the macbooks thicker as well as waste a lot of space them. Motherboards in laptops can't get a whole lot thinner than they currently so you're going to be adding on maybe a little less than a centimeter of thickness to the lid and moving the motherboard to the lid isn't going to make the base any thinner, because it still needs to fit the hard drive and optical drive. Plus, setting it up like that would basically leave a bunch of open space in the top and bottom
  • Someone mentioned that people's desks aren't set up right at the moment, and they are right. 95% of situations with current computers aren't set up in a way that a touchscreen would be ergonomically sound. Reaching out in front of you, reaching across you, etc... I think that making the trackpad to be more useful is probably for the best, but screen would be only for occasional use i think.
  • by peter303 (12292) on Sunday July 01 2007, @12:56PM (#19708731)
    I loved what multi-touch does for iPhone multi-media management. But the most difficult thing on the iPhone is typing text. This is less of an issue when the display reaches six inches or so.
    • Keep at it. Most typing mistakes, if you ignore them and move on, are automatically corrected, so if you just type out whatever word you wanted iPhone does a decent job of guessing.
  • what about linux? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by radarsat1 (786772) on Sunday July 01 2007, @01:49PM (#19709153) Homepage
    In response to this story, I had a look at the synaptics driver in Linux.
    According to my dmesg output, the touchpad on my HP does indeed have the flag set for "SYN_CAP_MULTIFINGER", which I assume means it can report the positions of multiple touches.

    Running "synclient -m 10" however reports a constant "0000000" under the "multi" field.

    Anyone know how to properly access the multitouch data provided by the Linux synaptics driver?
  • Multi-touch Mac Mini (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Snart Barfunz (526615) on Sunday July 01 2007, @04:27PM (#19710227)
    How about a Mac Mini revision where it's whole top side is a multi-touch tablet? That would be very cool. Ergonomically, it would have to be no more than 1.5cm thick so there'd be no room for an optical drive, hard disk, CPU, etc - yet another opportunity for Apple to display their typical elegant minimalism!
    • like the one during BSODs? the middle finger?
      I believe what you're referring to is known as a Microsoft Salute. ;-)
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          The Mac version of the BSoD is the Transparent Multilingual Screen of Doom. Another word for it might be familiar to Linux/*BSD/Solaris/xNIX users: Kernel Panic.

          I have only had ONE on any Mac running Mac OS X. That was because I had the buggy version of the WiFi driver (fixed now) and I hit a WiFi access point that was malfunctioning.
    • Some people won't try it until there's (1) a task that needs to be done, and (2) the only resource available is the unfamiliar one. It helps if there's a docent who doesn't have a vested interest. If she's visiting Aunt Marge for a week and wants to view some snapshots on her camera, Aunt Marge will walk her through the interface to get the task done without trying to sell her on anything. If this is a positive experience, then she might be interested in fiddling with some Macs at the Apple Store withou
    • She just plain doesn't want to switch, and there's no rational basis for her decision. As you've pointed out, at this point in time she is looking more for convenient rationalizations for not switching, "leaning curve" being one of the great excuses.

      This is a common thing among people. They'd rather cling to outmoded ideas or irrational opinions to which they're already married because switching would be admitting they're "wrong," a terrifying prospect in modern day society, as the smallest admission of imp
    • As subject says. Once she sees your lack of issues etc, she will come around. The form factor is just so much sexier than a typical PC that also will appeal to a female. good luck!
    • so the hotter they get, the more power they generate. and the more power they generate, the longer they run. and the hotter they get, the more power they generate... but what determines when a section will automatically be jettisoned? if the LCD gets a crack in it, will it instantly be disconnected, so the rest isn't compromised?
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      You're the only one I've ever heard of that actually likes those things. If you don't press them hard enough the mouse pointer hardly moves. If you press it too hard it goes flying around the screen. They're a nightmare to use.
    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      What about shares in companies that make materials to teach reading comprehension? Sell, right?