Microsoft to Allow PC Makers to Downgrade to XP

mytrip pointed out a News.com story about a new Microsoft program to allow PC makers to downgrade from Vista to XP if they so choose. They're still pushing the new version of Windows very hard, but the option now exists for PC resellers to offer the now venerable OS. This is especially interesting as the article points out that OEM licenses for XP officially run out at the end of January. "Hewlett-Packard also started a program in August for many of its business models. 'For business desktops, workstations and select business notebooks and tablet PCs, customers can configure their systems to include the XP Pro restore disc for little or no charge,' HP spokeswoman Tiffany Smith said in an e-mail. She said it was too soon to gauge how high customer interest has been. 'Since we've only been offering (it) for about a month, we don't really have anything to share on demand.' A Microsoft representative confirmed there were some changes made over the summer to the options computer makers have with respect to XP, but the representative was not immediately able to elaborate on those changes."

Article has that backwards.

[Tatarize (682683)]

Users are permitted to upgrade from Vista to XP.

See, fixed.

Downgrade?

[Tribbin (565963)]

Why do they insist on calling it a downgrade?

Re:

[Nitroadict (1005509)]

This is further proof, if most did not suspect or pondered, imo, that Vista was just released to be released (see: rushed out) due to complications in getting whatever was originally supposed to what the next OS,which "7" is supposed to be: something new, something improved (one hopes :cross fingers:). However, I've stopped bitching at Vista and got a dual-boot of Xp/Ubuntu, so I apologize for getting mildly redundant there... I will probably eat my words when the 2nd service pack comes out, as I'm sure v

Re:Downgrade?

[Jerry (6400)]

the next OS,which "7" is supposed to be: something new, something improved (one hopes :cross fingers:).

When driving down a hiway at night Deer are sometimes caught in your headlights. They stand, transfixed, as you approach. You have to honk your horn and slow down to give them a chance to get out of their trance and leave the road.

So is it with some folks who, when MS releases PR memos about vaporware, fix their vision on this "future" OS, freezing themselves out of any current improvements. Just what MS wants.

Windows 7???

[commodoresloat (172735)]

I thought this was a joke and then looked it up and it's actually true: The post-Vista version of Windows in development has been dubbed "Windows 7 [osnews.com]. So it's really true -- the Windows OS is finally catching up to that revolutionary MacOS from 1991, System 7 [wikipedia.org]. Windows users will finally be able to take advantage of such innovations as QuickDraw and Balloon Help [wikipedia.org] Congratulations Microsoft!!

Re:

[suv4x4 (956391)]

So is it with some folks who, when MS releases PR memos about vaporware, fix their vision on this "future" OS, freezing themselves out of any current improvements. Just what MS wants.

I like your analog, but I think the reaction you see is more likely because people prefer to stick to XP until something better than XP and Vista comes along (hopefully 7).

The only thing that could impress those people, would be faster release of XP SP3, since the sheer amount of patches required after reinstall is incredible.

I

Re:Downgrade?

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr. (142215)]

Windows 7 will be the product that decides the future of Microsoft. They simply can't afford two crappy releases in a row.

As opposed to how many in the past?

Re:Downgrade?

[Ant P. (974313)]

Same reason they use words like "Genuine Advantage", or "doubleplusungood".

Re:Downgrade?

[Tribbin (565963)]

You are talking about the warm fuzzy feeling of words like 'Trusted Computing'?

Downgrade?

[CaptainPatent (1087643)]

I'll downgrade to XP in the same way I'll "downgrade" to a first-class airline ticket or a supersized meal.

On the other hand though, it is Microsoft making a correct move by giving consumers what they actually want while keeping the marketing in line with their "forward thinking."

Re:Downgrade?

[rucs_hack (784150)]

The problem is that Vista isn't being seen as a useful upgrade by microsofts biggest customer, the business world. They don't want it.

In a few years they will, just like they avoided XP till it had been around for a while. Its not that they don't like it, they just don't feel they can rely on it yet.
A new OS is a risk, even if it comes from the major player in the OS world. Yup, people here may not like it, but windows is the standard bearer, Linux is still a minority everywhere but serverspace.

Home users get the fallout from this. The simple fact is that vista would be a big improvement for most home users who are in the 'don't care, so long as my pc works' class. People who don't want it are usually reacting to the negative press and not realising that most of this doesn't really apply to them, vista will do everything they want, since what they want is a pc that will browse the web and play games. XP does this too, but the security model in XP is a disaster, Vista at least improves on it a bit. Linux fans may be angered by this, doesn't stop it being true.

I don't want vista either, I'd rather stick with XP, but I'll be buying it next year, several copies in fact. So will almost everyone on slashdot, unless they're really linux only bods. Hardly anyone falls into that group at the moment. I like my games, and Linux just doesn't do that well.

Re:Downgrade?

[Sylver Dragon (445237)]

I like my games, and Linux just doesn't do that well.

I'd be careful on Vista as well, then. My personal addiction has been World of Warcraft for some time, and when I upgraded to Vista on my home system, my frame-rates tanked. My system is not top of the line, nor close even. But it was able to run WoW on OK graphics settings, and get playable frame-rates anywhere but the worst of places, while I was running XP. After a few months of dealing with the performance hit, I downgraded to XP. My frame-rates are back to reasonable, at higher graphics settings than I had been using in Vista (which I had lowered to make the game playable) and higher frame-rates.
Now, this probably has more to do with the drivers for my graphics card (6600GT) than the OS itself, but it is an issue which will keep me from upgrading.

Re:

[sjames (1099)]

Now, this probably has more to do with the drivers for my graphics card (6600GT) than the OS itself, but it is an issue which will keep me from upgrading.

I'd say they're closely related. The driver is the most direct problem, but the crazy new requirements Vista puts on drivers to make sure nobody makes fair use of any IPee is a likely reason for the new driver problems.

Fundamentally, Vista WILL steal cycles from your game to run DRM threads at a higher priority. MS has gon way out of their way to ass

Not quite...

[Joce640k (829181)]

Business users can see that Vista will:

a) Cost them millions.

b) Most likely cause a lot of incompatibility problems.

c) Not increase their productivity one bit even when they finally have it all working.

It's a lose-lose proposition for them.

buggy!

[grumpyman (849537)]

that OEM licenses for XP officially run out at the end of January.

See, I know MS develops buggy code. Even their license generator stop working!

I just setup Vista for a friend

[canuck57 (662392)]

I understand the plight. After setting up Vista for the first time the other night I could not believe the amount of GUI changes in Vista. Especially when it came up on a cable modem PPPoE. Took me an hour to figure it out, it though we had a DSL dial up. Don't look for properties any more in the OS, they are now calling it "Settings" and is where the help used to be on many screens.

People would have less learning UI if they loaded Fedora 7 or RHat.

Sure glad I bought my last PC when I did. Still had XP on it with a promise of a free upgrade. Have the new disks. Just never applied the upgrade. Will not be applying any time soon either.

Re:

[Mex (191941)]

Do me a favor. When your friend inevitably calls you up for help with his new Vista OS, tell him you can't help him because you don't know this new OS, and have him call Microsoft for support, as it should be.

XP is insufficient, Vista is ridiculous

[White Flame (1074973)]

I need to buy a new system (current motherboard got damaged, might as well upgrade), and I've been weighing my options. Vista is simply not an option at all. XP Pro 64-bit is orphaned, with virtually nonexistent driver support. XP is 32-bit, and I already was running Win2k with 4GB of RAM (well, as much as it will use of that) and need to grow.

After all these years of Windows desktop and Linux here & there on servers and VMs, I'm going to finally make the jump the Linux desktop, VMWare'ing Windows where I need it. I don't play PC games anymore (besides minesweeper), I'm going to get a quad CPU with 8GB of RAM, and Microsoft simply isn't offering anything viable for that configuration.

Re:XP is insufficient, Vista is ridiculous

[White Flame (1074973)]

• I don't care if Vista will run "extremely well", it will take up far more resources than any other option, and I'm running very CPU and memory intensive applications. I'm getting a powerful machine to run my applications, not just to run a lumbering OS.
• I have a bunch of peripherals and don't want to risk driver problems.
• I do not want to be encumbered with DRM and other "trusted computing" issues with basic system configuration, troubleshooting, and software development, nor in my media recording, archives, and playback.
• I run a lot of not-very-mainstream software that doesn't explicitly support Vista yet, but does support Win32 and Linux.
• In the little that I've played around with doing simple things on Vista on store display boxes, it has either crashed or thrown security exceptions at me. I think it reflects a lot of the negative responses I've seen here from Vista users here and elsewhere as consistent usability, stability, and access problems.

Venerable?

[porcupine8 (816071)]

Sorry, I know a lot of people think it's better than Vista, but when did XP become venerable?? Is there some secret meaning for that word that I don't know?

Re:

[Yvanhoe (564877)]

Made me raise eyebrows too. When did the whole "to hell with XP, I'll stick to Win2k" thing vanished ? Remember ? XP has nasty anti-piracy features that can lock your PC, mandatory upgrades that you can not refuse and the license gives MS the right to erase any file on your disk. It also says you must send a kidney of your firstborn to Mr. B. G. Redmond, Seattle.

Re:

[porcupine8 (816071)]

Common English usage is for something that's old, but honorable or respected because of (in part) that age. Something to be venerated. XP may be old, but the rest...

Re:

[OakDragon (885217)]

Buggier than a cow standing in manure inside a Louisiana swamp on the Fourth of July.

Mr. Rather, don't you think you had better concentrate on your lawsuit against CBS, not wasting time here in /.?

News?

[Barny (103770)]

How the hell is this news, downgrade rights have been available for consumers of ultimate and business since launch, it is how they get so many corporate sales of vista (since they ignore the vista part and just load xp pro as always.

I had one of the senior MS sales people for Australia recommend for our store to buy a 1 user "mass license" and then use that for installing downgrade rights, this is an option that has been open to OEMers for quite a while, its just they are finally waking up and realising th

Re:News?

[miffo.swe (547642)]

The news is that computers will be sold with XP installed. Thats a huge difference to getting a recovery disc and doing it yourself.

Not mature enough yet...

[headkase (533448)]

It boils down to the fact that Vista is simply not mature enough yet. I run XP Pro and am happy with it and I have no intentions of switching to Vista anytime soon. Now in a year or two when it's up to service pack 2 AND you can run DOSBox inside of XPBox AND software compatibilities are a thing of the past because Vista is the target not XP then I'll upgrade.
And this old XP machine will probably become an Ubuntu box then.

Re:Not mature enough yet...

[gad_zuki! (70830)]

It boils down to the fact that XP is simply not mature enough yet. I run 2000 Pro and am happy with it and I have no intentions of switching to XP anytime soon. Now in a year or two when it's up to service pack 4 AND you can run DOSBox AND software compatibilities are a thing of the past because XP is the target not 2000 then I'll upgrade.
And this old 2000 machine will probably become a Mandrake box then.

I have no real problems with Vista...

[stubear (130454)]

I waited an extra month or two to purchase my new Dell XPS M2010 just to get Vista since it was on the horizon and as far as I could tell all my hardware/software worked for the most part or new drivers were already in beta for one of my Epson printers. I would have not waited six months for Vista, nor do I have any plans to go out and purchase it for any of my other machines, but I can't say I'm unhappy that I waited a month to get it on my new-ish system. The Vista Media Center is EXCELLENT and in my opinion is unmatched by any other software or dedicated box. Microsoft could dominate the PVR market if they released a Zune TV device that basically booted straight into WMC without the Windows UI anywhere to be seen. Let me sync recorded shows to a Zune 2.0 device and Apple's hold on the handheld media device market would begin to wane. Some of the adjustments to Explorer and the Start menu are nice and improve the usefulness of both a little bit. My biggest problems with Vista aren't Microsoft's doing, they are the third party developers who dragged their feet even knowing full well that Vista was coming out and they knew what they had to do to make their software compatible. There really is little Microsoft can do to get developers to use user accounts properly (which have been a apart of NT from the start, Vista is the first time Microsoft has enforced their use). I really don't see the need for anyone other than corporate customers to downgrade to XP.

Re:I have no real problems with Vista...

[dbIII (701233)]

Microsoft could dominate the PVR market

The really bizzare thing is that linux does instead. I have to put it down to licence costs and slow development on the part of MS - an updated Windows CE could be doing the job if they had put in enough effort.

OS version revision

[thatskinnyguy (1129515)]

This just goes to show you that Joe Consumer out there will use whatever he is comfortable with. I know several non-technically-inclined people who took advantage of an "OS version revision (not a downgrade necessarily)" to XP just because they don't like how slow their new computers were running and they didn't like the San Quintenesque security of Vista.

I also know several people who still use Windows 98 on their home machines just because they like it. Sure they can't get new Windows Updates and finding new software is damn near impossible but they like it.

On the other hand, I do know a handful of people who like Vista and actually prefer it over XP. Not for the security, but for the "WOW". Of course their systems are superlative in every respect to performance.

This "use what you like" thing may be why Mac OSs do so well. I mean, what really has changed from UI, performance and security perspectives that can be easily seen since OS 10.0?

Change is a bitch. I know. I know. Get off my lawn.

Vista = New Coke?

[Brett Buck (811747)]

Or Xp = Slurm Classic?

      Brett

This is total nonsense - MS *HAD* TO DO IT!!

[jkrise (535370)]

Last evening, I met with the IT chief of a large transnational bank, for whom we develop Enterprise code. I asked him about what software platforms are envisaged in the long run, and the process behind evaluation. He said, "Basically we have a Red-Amber-Green colour scheme for software."

Under this scheme, Vista is Red, so is IE7, ActiveX controls, Visual Basic and Visual Basic .Net; I was surprised to learn that Visual Studio as a whole is 'Amber'! SuSE and RedHat Linux are both green, so is PHP, RubyonRails, Eclipse, Websphere etc. Interestingly, he said the IT staff of several banks get together and discuss matters affecting common issues like this.

So I guess it's the OEMs who are FORCED TO OFFER XP and XP-compatible hardware, drivers and support to their biggest customers. This isn't some gift of charity from His Billness or the new acting Chair-man from Microsoft. Nobody sane would like to willingly downgrade to Vista - simple as that.

Hubris

[Un pobre guey (593801)]

Microsoft's marketing machine has always tried to convey the idea that they are the de facto standard for everything, much as IBM tried to do in the 1980s. It didn't last long back then for IBM, and it is wearing thin for Microsoft today. If you really are the de facto standard, you are able to force things down the customers' throats and charge them an arm and a leg for it. When there are alternatives, such as a perfectly serviceable WinXP in this case, it is no longer that easy. Microsoft has to back down because a) XP works perfectly alright for most folks, especially on newer hardware, and b) Mac laptops (and to a much lesser extent GNU/Linux distros like Ubuntu) are distracting eyes and pocketbooks.

It's the natural evolution of a market. Frankly, it took a perversely long time, most likely due to Microsoft's monopolistic hold on pre-installed operating systems. They can't complain. They made a few bucks while it lasted, and are making more still.

Not the whole time

[localroger (258128)]

Originally, Dell switched entirely to Vista just like everyone else. Then after a month or two they strong-armed M$ into letting them offer XP to their business customers. (I would love to have been a fly on the wall listening in to the conversation that got that concession out of M$.) This is just M$ offering the same thing to other vendors, who are probably losing a lot of business to people who want XP and can only get it from Dell.

Re:

[hurfy (735314)]

At least the local shop has no problem building me a XP box. New laptop last week was offered with either Vista-sucky edition or XP-home or an upgrade to XP-Pro. Salesman laptop died and i got a new one built in 4 hrs :)

Even comes with a windows CD. Of course the multiple choice OS means they usually load one up by hand so some settings can be a bit inconsistent, but i change most of it anyways.

Re:Not the whole time

[Carrot007 (37198)]

> In my workplace, we'd LIKE Vista

Please tell me where you work so I can avoid it.

Cheers.

Re:Not the whole time

[suv4x4 (956391)]

(I would love to have been a fly on the wall listening in to the conversation that got that concession out of M$.) This is just M$ offering the same thing to other vendors, who are probably losing a lot of business to people who want XP and can only get it from Dell.

Me too :(

You know, many experts predicted people will skip Vista and go for the next Windows (if for any at all). And those aren't the kinda experts which damn the latest Windows version each time as a sport.

I'm a Microsoft fanboy, but I also feel my stomach turning upside down seeing what they did with Vista as a whole.

And the fact this happened means people actively reject Vista en masse, for Microsoft this means they will have to do big time correction on their Vista projected sales (which included all previously guaranteed OEM sales). One more step into confirming this "people will skip Vista" theory.

Skip Vista? Dr. Death arrives after only 3 years.

[Futurepower(R) (558542)]

Quote: "... I also feel my stomach turning upside down seeing what they did with Vista as a whole."

As others have suggested, maybe it is better to skip Vista completely, the non-drug method of curing stomach upset.

Dr. Death has arrived. After only 3 years, requiem for an OS: Bill Gates is software's Dr. Death, ready to kill software prematurely that customers want to use. He has decided that Windows XP will die soon [microsoft.com]: January 31, 2008.

The huge number of bugs in Windows XP before SP2 was very expensive for us. If I remember correctly, Windows XP SP2 fixed more than 630 bugs, and some of the fixes were not documented. The really major problems in Windows XP stopped only after SP2 was released, on August 25, 2004 [microsoft.com]. That means we have gotten only 3 years of good use from Windows XP.

Rule number one in dealing with Microsoft: Unless forced by circumstances, never move to a new version of Windows until the second service pack is released. Let other people have the grief.

(Someone said that rule will just cause Microsoft to release service packs much more often. If that happens, it may be necessary to change the rule to "until the X service pack...")

It has been 3 years since WinXP Service Pack 2 was released, even though updating Windows XP from an SP2 CD requires downloading more than 170 Megabytes of files, a difficult problem when there is no internet connection or only a dial-up connection. The Windows XP updates of just August's Patch Tuesday were more than 20 Megabytes. Microsoft seems to have delayed releasing an SP3 for Windows XP to try to discourage people from using Windows XP.

New versions of Linux are released to make a better OS. New versions of Microsoft Windows seem to have the purpose of 1) killing the old version and 2) using more CPU power so that it is necessary to buy new hardware. When you partner with Microsoft, you partner with a company that may sometimes choose to be your enemy, in my opinion.

It is not only the vulnerabilities that are expensive. Microsoft's adversarial behavior is expensive, too.

Re:Skip Vista? Dr. Death arrives after only 3 year

[MojoStan (776183)]

Dr. Death has arrived. After only 3 years, requiem for an OS: Bill Gates is software's Dr. Death, ready to kill software prematurely that customers want to use. He has decided that Windows XP will die soon [microsoft.com]: January 31, 2008.

I'm not trying to dispute the spirit of your post, but I think saying XP "will die" on January 31 is "greatly exaggerating." That's just the date Microsoft will stop making XP available to retailers and OEMs. That's not the date MS stops support.

According to MS's Windows XP Pro lifecycle page [microsoft.com], "mainstream support" for XP lasts until April 14, 2009 and "extended support" (which includes security updates and paid support [microsoft.com]) lasts until at least April 8, 2014 (the same dates apply to XP Home). That's actually a heck of a lot longer than any other OS AFAIK.

The really major problems in Windows XP stopped only after SP2 was released, on August 25, 2004. That means we have gotten only 3 years of good use from Windows XP.

Since XP will continue to get security updates, paid support, and free knowledgebase support until at least April 2014, you should be able to get at least a few more years of use from XP. If you need a bunch of additional licenses, order them before January 31 (to be safe). If you only need a few additional licenses, it should be easy to find old stock after that date.

That said, Linux distros have gotten a heck of a lot better since XP was released nearly six years ago. Also, desktop versions of Ubuntu LTS guarantee 3 years of support, which is pretty darned good for a free download that's updated every 2 years (LTS versions).

Re:Not the whole time

[crymeph0 (682581)]

It depended on the PC model. Where I work, we have a small business account with Dell. We could get XP on higher-end workstations we use for 3-D modeling and the like, but we had to get Vista on the lower-end PCs we use on the factory floor, until Dell relented a month or so after Vista hit. I know our IT guy sent some very strongly worded emails to our Dell sales rep asking for XP on all computers, and I'm sure they were getting the same from many of their business customers.

Re:

[Propaganda13 (312548)]

It's good for Microsoft because people spent the money on business or ultimate then in April 2009 support runs out. The person will either need to change to Vista for support or pay for additional support.

Re:

[eepok (545733)]

No. It took them a while to muscle MS into allowing them to sell XP. Even then, it's only on 1 home laptop option and 3 gaming machines.

Those ordering for small business have to eat the cost of additionally buying a Windows XP client license in addition to the Vista cost of buying a Dell.

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/winxp_inspn?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs [dell.com]

No pretty linkage for you!

Re:

[Tribbin (565963)]

If Vista is going to be 'Windows' final interface' than any change is permitted.

If the change implies that Windows is going to lose the final; that is nice too.

Re:

[Fox_1 (128616)]

Here's a little bit of craziness, my Vista doesn't look like Vista, it doesn't even look like XP either, it looks like the good old fashioned plain Jane NT/95/98 world. Simple icons, plain start bar, no fancy window effects. All you have to do is turn off the eye candy and select the right visual options.

Yeah, who'd of thought that the Prettiness of the OS doesn't improve it's functionality? On that note - having killed a lot of unnecessary junk in vista I'm not quite getting the same performance to power

Re:So very different...

[I'm Don Giovanni (598558)]

"Take a look at Mac OS X. The interface is pretty much the same for more than ten years. "

Um, OS X hasn't even been around for ten years. It was introduces in 2000 or 2001..
And OSX's interface is just as different from that of its predecessor, Mac OS 9, as Vista's is from XP's. There was plenty of whining in the Mac community over the "step back" that OSX 10.0 was. (It was indeed very much slower than Mac OS 9, but I think it's interface blew away Mac OS 9's).

Re:

[Tribbin (565963)]

I remember a HUGE billboard where Microsoft asks us something about if we are continuing to be living in the stone age.

This was about new office software. You saw dinosaurs at the office on the billboard.

I think they were not sure enough about their stuff to pull such insult to 'stayers' with Vista.

Re:

[Kadin2048 (468275)]

I was standing at the customer-service desk of a computer store yesterday (MicroCenter, a slightly more clueful big-box store than CompUSA or its ilk) and a guy walked up to the desk next to me. Basically, the guy wanted to know "what the hell was wrong with his computer." Some sales drone had sold him on a Vista laptop, and he got it home before discovering that it wasn't what he expected a computer to look or feel like. Long story short, the guy ended up returning the unit and exchanging it for one of the

Re:

[allcar (1111567)]

He should have just concentrated on useful new features like the ability to get a commmand window at any folder. If that's the most compelling reason to upgrade, it's not surprising that things aren't going too well for Vista. I'm sure that was a "PowerToy" ages ago.

Re:

[LordEd (840443)]

2. Licensing - A 1x transfer? Businesses should stay away just for that reason alone.

Microsoft revised their licensing [slashdot.org] permitting reinstalls.

4. UAC. The epitomy of the Are you sure? box.

I rarely get the deny/allow message in normal use. Not as much as I expected from reading here.

Re:

[flyingfsck (986395)]

Sure XP is just as shitty as ever, but compared to Vista, XP is not just good, it is 'venerable'...