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Google Planning New Undersea Cable Across Pacific?

Posted by CowboyNeal on Sat Sep 22, 2007 09:11 AM
from the stranger-things-have-been-sponsored dept.
tregetour writes "Google is planning a multi-terabit undersea communications cable across the Pacific Ocean for launch in 2009, Communications Day reports: 'Google would not strictly confirm or deny the existence of the Unity plan today, with spokesman Barry Schnitt telling our North American correspondent Patrick Neighly that "Additional infrastructure for the Internet is good for users and there are a number of proposals to add a Pacific submarine cable. We're not commenting on any of these plans." However, Communications Day understands that Unity would see Google join with other carriers to build a new multi-terabit cable. Google would get access to a fibre pair at build cost handing it a tremendous cost advantage over rivals such as MSN and Yahoo, and also potentially enabling it to peer with Asia ISPs behind their international gateways — considerably improving the affordability of Internet services across Asia Pacific.'"
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  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 22 2007, @09:15AM (#20710491)
    So will the NSA tap it at the google datacenter with their permission ala AT&T or will the Navy have to tap it will one of those fancy subs we keep hearing about that lifts the cable off the seabed and can splice without interruption?

    Because you know there's no way "homeland security" is letting that happen without monitoring.

    You know with these kinds of resources, if Google ever did turn evil, we'd never figure it out until it was far too late...
    • by $RANDOMLUSER (804576) on Saturday September 22 2007, @09:24AM (#20710565)

      ...can splice without interruption...
      For copper, sure, but not with fiber optics.
      • by Iphtashu Fitz (263795) on Saturday September 22 2007, @10:08AM (#20710879)
        Considering that the US Navy in conjunction with the CIA was tapping Soviet copper phone cables as far back as the 1970's [divingheritage.com] I wouldn't find it all that unlikely that they now have the technology to tap fiber cables. Yes, I know that splicing into fiber is extremely difficult in the best of situations, but if braniacs could figure out how to locate and tap underwater copper cables almost 30-40 years ago then I wouldn't hold it against modern-day braniacs to figure out a way to tap fiber cables in this day and age.
        • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

          by Anonymous Coward
          but if braniacs could figure out how to locate and tap underwater copper cables almost 30-40 years ago
          I don't think I saw that eposide?
          • The perceived difficulty with tapping fibre seems to be from the assumption that any interruption in data transmission will be noticed and instantly treated as suspicious. I think it's possible that a quick fibre cut and splice on an underwater cable could be perceived as nothing but a temporary and unimportant glitch by Telco's.

            It may have been done before [zdnet.com]. And what are they going to do if a tap is detected? Rip up the whole thing and start over or just ignore it?

            As the AC points out a repeater is probably a good point to tap. But then what do you do with the connection? You will need to run another cable the same size from the tap to a shore based facility to monitor the traffic. Now that would be noticeable!

            Maybe the NSA tells the operators that they have a choice;
            1) You can give us access at the end point (like AT&T [wired.com]).
            2)

          • by smallfries (601545) on Saturday September 22 2007, @02:03PM (#20712919) Homepage
            Splicing is not actually necessary. No cable has perfect internal reflection and so some light escapes naturally. A tap can sample this light without disrupting the cable, or being detectable. There was also a method a few years ago that involved encasing the cable in something that reduces the refractive index of the glass at the boundary and so allows the signal to be read - but this can be detected by the network operator. Newer methods are undetectable [computing.co.uk].
            • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

              At which point the owner notices a drop in signal quality. That video is a scare piece (hell it's a fucking marketing piece for a company who wants to sell their hardware encryption tech). Their caveat that gives it away is "unless there is equipment is in place to check for signal degradation". You flatly do NOT setup a fiber system, not to mention one as big as what Google is debating without the proper equipment. Hell, you really don't even need equipment. Just software to check for degraded data.
      • Doesn't that just mean you need to splice it while it's still dark? This thing isn't going to be built instantly.
    • by AHuxley (892839) on Saturday September 22 2007, @09:28AM (#20710587)
      Its already set up via the NSA's Kunia Regional Security Operations Center in Hawaii.
      NZ, Australia, Japan and now something extra in Hawaii. Asia is now so tapped.
      Google is of no interest, the NSA can tap at any point they want.

      http://cryptome.org/google/kunia-us.htm [cryptome.org]

    • by AHumbleOpinion (546848) on Saturday September 22 2007, @01:03PM (#20712347) Homepage
      You are assuming that google is not an NSA front. Think about it, they monitor and record your web browsing habits, your travel plans, they scan your email, they want you to use their online word processor, ... That wanting to know everything about you and your behaviors and interests for the purpose of directed commercial advertising is a beautiful front. ;-)
      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        In the US and its helper countries, they just get rack space where needed.
        So the best way is to get as much of the worlds data moving via NSA friendly countries.
        For everything else, there's the USS Jimmy Carter to bend the fiber.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        Why not just take responsibility for your own data and encrypt it yourself. Would you really trust that they were really encrypting it, and not leaving any back doors for the government, or the mafia? The solution is simple. If you're worried about them tapping the cable, then just encrypt your data end-to-end.
  • Do no evil .... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by B5_geek (638928) on Saturday September 22 2007, @09:19AM (#20710523)
    ...And allowing it to (dis)allow oppressive governments to continue to block/monitor Internet access.

    This may have been a brilliant move on Googles' part. Fully cooperate with the Chinese governments' "Great Firewall" until they could put themselves in a position to undermine that authority.

    • The ends justify the means.
    • Re:Do no evil .... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ChronosWS (706209) on Saturday September 22 2007, @09:39AM (#20710667)
      I assure you the Chinese government doesn't suddenly have less authority because Google has fiber in the Pacific.
    • Yeah, but why would you think that the chinese government wouldn't just break the cable? If they're that hell bent on blocking access, it doesn't seem like a difficult step for them to take. They've already got the subs, and I'm sure a torpedo would do.
    • This may have been a brilliant move on Googles' part. Fully cooperate with the Chinese governments' "Great Firewall" until they could put themselves in a position to undermine that authority.

      The Google office, all the data it collected on Chinese individuals, and one end of that cable all exist in Chinese territory. Google operates at the pleasure of the Chinese government. The day Google attempts to move against that government is the day all Google's property and data becomes property of the governmen
  • Great? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by moehoward (668736) on Saturday September 22 2007, @09:23AM (#20710557)

    I think it is great if it is true. I like the redundancy plan. But, since they don't specify the route, I am very skeptical. On the other hand, who am I to talk. I have never put a job opening on Monster looking for a "submarine cable negotiator." That is frickin' hilarious.

    Me? I would go up through Alaska, through Russia via the Bering Sea. Cap'n Sig would do most of the work for me on the Northwestern. I would avoid doing a Portland-to-Tokyo route because of the ring-o-fire thingy.

    I fell in to a burning ring of fire, I went down,down,down and the flames went higher. And my mod went lower.
    • Re:Great? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Dachannien (617929) on Saturday September 22 2007, @09:51AM (#20710757)
      Me? I would go up through Alaska, through Russia via the Bering Sea. Cap'n Sig would do most of the work for me on the Northwestern. I would avoid doing a Portland-to-Tokyo route because of the ring-o-fire thingy.

      It's amusing that you would mention that, because the first transatlantic telegraph cable (well... the first project - there were a few abortive attempts as well as some attempts that stopped working soon after completion) was in direct competition with a "do it the long way" overland route via Russia that was being built by Western Union. The first long-lasting undersea cable eventually finished the race first in 1866, and the Western Union attempt was abandoned the next year.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_telegraph_cable [wikipedia.org]
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Union_Telegraph_Expedition [wikipedia.org]

      • Thanks. Very interesting. I think I just saw something on TV regarding the anniversary of the first round-the-world telegraph link. And the Russian thing did eventually work out and was, obviously, a big part of it.

        I was able to actually touch some of the fiber cable that they lay undersea these days, and it is some amazing stuff. If the Martians vaporize the planet someday, I'm convinced that this cable will be the only thing left.
      • but it seems to me that it's a hell of a lot easier to drop a cable onto the seabed than to route a cable under or above roads and private lands.

        There are still people who haven't read Neal Stephenson's Mother Earth, Mother Board [wired.com]?

      • OK. Sorry. I was being more flip than anything else. But, I do stand by my conclusion.

        Undersea cables are notoriously difficult to fix. And hugely expensive to fix. Sometimes, the "fix" is to lay entire new cable. "Fairly" easy in the Phillipines/Australia/Indonesia area (and it happens all the time), but hard when it comes to long distances like Portland to Tokyo.

        My point, if I had one, is to keep it close to land. Especially when laying long stretches in the ring-o-fire. "I was modded down, down, down, an
  • by ejito (700826) on Saturday September 22 2007, @09:30AM (#20710601)
    Why are we trying to reduce the cost of Asian providers when the US' is still overpriced, unreliable, and underserved?

    Last time I checked, Japan and SK had amazing speeds (10-100mbit) for very affordable prices. It's still a matter of government intervention, not corporate meddling.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      It's still a matter of corporate intervention, not government meddling and regulations.
      There. Fixed it!
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      It's still a matter of government intervention, not corporate meddling.

      Geez. You managed to distill leftist philosophy into one sentence. That's impressive. South Korea and Japan's impressive availability is a matter of advantageous population distribution and relatively low cost of infrastructure because of that distribution. This situation will never, ever happen in the U.S., even if politicians try to wave magic Government-Issued wands.
      • by ScrewMaster (602015) on Saturday September 22 2007, @11:04AM (#20711305)
        This situation will never, ever happen in the U.S., even if politicians try to wave magic Government-Issued wands.

        Yes and no.

        The Feds, over the past decade, did wave such a magic card at the Telcos and the billions of dollars that were inside that card that were supposed to be used for such a buildout just vanished. Gone. Never to be seen again. "Information superhighway" my ass.

        So the situation could obtain in the U.S. but only if we remove a major stumbling block: the major ISP themselves. Believe me, the investment capital would be available if the people willing to put up the money knew that they would receive a return on that investment. Interestingly, Google is investing heavily in infrastructure, but they're not giving it to the incumbents. They know better than anyone that it would be a waste of money.
        • The Feds, over the past decade, did wave such a magic card at the Telcos and the billions of dollars that were inside that card that were supposed to be used for such a buildout just vanished. Gone. Never to be seen again. "Information superhighway" my ass.

          Boy, I sure am glad we have that grand and august institution, the US Congress, to investigate such matters and bring justice for the people. Surely this will be at the forefront of their agenda, right after condemning political organizations for exercising their free speech and rubber-stamping war budget requests. Gentlemen, we are in good hands.

    • Asia Pacific != Japan and South Korea. There's a lot of archipelagos in the Pacific.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      Although it is really entertaining to read all of these conspiracy theories, they really have no basis in fact or common telecom practice. I have been in the telecom business for 15 years, and this is just one of many such deals that happen every few years. For example, check out Global Crossing's international crossings [globalcrossing.com] on their network map.

      This deal has nothing to do with making Internet access cheaper for anyone. What it is about is the ability to capture significant revenue by owning the transmission

  • Sounds good (Score:5, Insightful)

    by The Famous Brett Wat (12688) on Saturday September 22 2007, @09:34AM (#20710635) Homepage Journal

    As I understand it, Australia (and probably everyone else, for that matter) has been getting reamed by the USA as regards Internet peering arrangements. Bandwidth costs have always been higher here, and it's not all to do with a lack of local competition, although that used to be a credible story back when Telstra was charging twenty cents a megabyte for permanent dial-up connectivity. These days the economic pressure is mostly conspicuous for the fact that local hosting services are so expensive. If Google busts up that cosy little oligopoly, I'll love them to bits for it. To gigabits, even. (Sorry. Preemptive pun. Someone had to do it.)

    Is this a part of Google's answer to the whole carrier sabre-rattling about non-neutrality and wanting a slice of Google's profits? There's no better way to ensure fair treatment than to provide your own infrastructure. Is this Google's way of saying to the carriers, "get over it, guys -- bandwidth is a fricken commodity now, and we're going to compete with you to make it so, so kiss your old monopoly profits goodbye." There's a high barrier to entry in this market, and you'd be mad to buy your way in only to compete all the profits out of it -- unless you happen to be a major consumer of bandwidth yourself, like Google.

    Must... not... get... hopes... up...

    • I think the TFA makes the point that because of the potential capacity in this new line, and Google's investment in it, once costs are met, it's virtually all profit from there on.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Bandwidth costs have always been higher here, and it's not all to do with a lack of local competition, although that used to be a credible story back when Telstra was charging twenty cents a megabyte for permanent dial-up connectivity.
      In 1997, Telstra were charging 19.5c per MB. In 2007:

      Additional usage charged at $0.15/MB, apart from members on the BigPond Liberty plans.
      Telstra are a bunch of thieves.
  • Africa (Score:4, Interesting)

    by pilsner.urquell (734632) on Saturday September 22 2007, @09:47AM (#20710719)
    What about Africa? This is a continent that needs Internet access more than any other and a new undersea cable is embroiled in bitter political animosity [wordpress.com] IMHO Google could generate a lot of good will for itself focusing in the area that needs the most attention.
    • Last I heard, Africa has plenty of unused undersea fiber making a ring around the continent. I can't find the page anymore.
    • Re:Africa (Score:4, Insightful)

      by LineGrunt (133002) on Saturday September 22 2007, @10:26AM (#20711053)
      Why not Africa?

      Because businesses function on making money, not just fulfilling "needs."

      Undersea cables are hideously expensive and the company putting one in _needs_ to have a reasonable chance of recouping those costs.

      While Africa may "need" internet, the fact that companies aren't already in a race to provide Africa with internet is a de-facto signal that multiple companies don't think they have a business case to provide it.

      I need a "Ferrari" but the business community isn't in a hurry to provide ME with one either.
  • Nice (Score:3, Insightful)

    by imsabbel (611519) on Saturday September 22 2007, @09:51AM (#20710751)
    Now they wont even have to run their spiders anymore, nor use gmail to create targeted ads.
    They will just snoop everybodies traffic....
  • I guess that's one way to achieve net neutrality. Now they just need to run their own backbone to every major peering point and ISP in the rest of the world...
  • by mbone (558574) on Saturday September 22 2007, @10:22AM (#20711007)
    Don't get the vapors, everyone. Google is buying one fiber pair. This will lower their costs, but only that. There will be, what, 200+ fiber pairs in that cable. There will be some to go around if anyone else wants to pony up.

    As for "considerably improving the affordability of Internet services across Asia Pacific,'" I don't follow that at all. Google doesn't sell transit. The new cable might do that, but not because of Google - because real ISPs will get other fiber pairs and use them to sell transit.

    Next, we'll get articles about how Google's corporate jets will revolutionize air transport in North America ! (At least, for Google execs.)
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        The new long haul stuff means you don't need under sea repeaters at all if you stick to the Pacific rim and avoid Hawaii. Under sea fiber armored fiber runs about $7/m but the repeaters run about $1 million each which is why there tends to be only one or two pair used. When you can reduce the undersea infrastructure costs from about $2 billion the old way to $200m using on land repeaters, the ROI make sense for many major data users.
  • When did Google hire Randy Waterhouse?
  • "Saunders' presentation warned of the potential for the new cables to create a new trans-Pacific capacity bubble"
     
    ...What?
  • by fejikso (567395) on Saturday September 22 2007, @11:49AM (#20711647) Homepage
    I was prompted me to look at the wikipedia and found this interesting article:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_communications_cable [wikipedia.org]

    I particularly found very interesting the map with all the undersea cables in the world. Pretty cool.
  • by Quiet_Desperation (858215) on Saturday September 22 2007, @12:08PM (#20711815)
    They're going to build Rapture under the sea!
    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      >Submarine's run on cables?!

      Submarine means "under water", you subliterate.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      If any stupid net.neutrality laws get passed it gives the goog bargining power. "oh hello data pipe operator. Want to peer with us? We have Asia. We'll trade you for unfettered access to the americas"

      fibre is currency in this century.