Mom Blasts Ballmer Over Kid's Vista Experience

Lucas123 writes "While on stage at a Gartner's ITxpo conference today, Ballmer got an ear-full from the mother of a 13-year-old girl who said after installing Vista on her daughter's computer she decided only two days later to switch back to XP because Vista was so difficult. Ballmer defended Vista saying: 'Your daughter saw a lot of value'; to which the mother replied: 'She's 13.' Ballmer said that Vista is bigger than XP, and 'for some people that's an issue, and it's not going to get smaller in any significant way in SP1. But machines are constantly getting bigger, and [it's] probably important to remember that as well.' Says the mother: 'Good, I'll let you come in and install it for me.'"

A lot of value...

[mind21_98 (18647)]

...in learning something difficult?

Ballmer's comment seems really prick-like to me. It probably wasn't meant as such, but still.

Re:A lot of value...

[by Anonymous Coward]

The article is a bit terse, but Ballmer meant that her daughter saw a lot of value when she looked at her friend's install of Vista...enough value that she immediately went home and told her mom "I've got to have that!"

Re:A lot of value...

[by Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, the value she saw was equivalent to cakes, chocolates, and candy, and soon became sick of the sugar and just wanted same damn food.

Re:A lot of value...

[mikael (484)]

The "mother" was Yvonne Genovese [gartner.com], Research VP of Gartner Research. She was on stage with a discussion panel.

Re:A lot of value...

[Tibor the Hun (143056)]

Quite clearly, you've never tried using gadgets. Gadgets are the paradigm-shift (I hope I can still use that word) we've all been waiting for.

Why I myself am about to ditch OS X in favor of gadget... err Vista.

If you can't see the insurmountable value of gadgets, and that their existence warrants a 7 year development cycle, multiple delays and feature reduction not to mention complete industry IT overhaul and user re-training, then, you sir are not a visionary, and should promptly log out of this site, and clear your history.

Good riddance I say!

Re:A lot of value...

[Rallion (711805)]

Heh. Yes.

To me, the funniest thing about Vista's gadget system is that (still, in 2007!) when your resulotion gets changed (by a game, for example -- happens to me far more than once a day ) the gadgets in the lower and right-most portions of your screen get pushed up/left, and have to be moved back manually. For the love of god, people, anchor the things to the nearest edges.

Re:A lot of value...

[Hatta (162192)]

I guess we now know why Inspector Gadget's gadgets were always malfunctioning. They were running vista. Good thing Penny runs linux.

Re:A lot of value...

[RonnyJ (651856)]

Ballmer's comment seems really prick-like to me. It probably wasn't meant as such, but still.

From the article: Ballmer was good-natured about the critique as he defended the operating system.

Re:A lot of value...

[plague3106 (71849)]

See, I don't get this. Its not more difficult; the start menu is largely the same. The Documents folder is layed out differently, which Pictures and Movies and such becoming peers to documents... but its not really that different. Is it UAC that everyone is saying is so different they can't figure out how to use the computer? Aside from clicking a dialog when i try to do an administrative task, nothing substancial changed from how I used Windows.

Unfortunately I couldn't really find anything specific that caused the switch back. Was it the kid's choice? The mother's?

Re:A lot of value...

[cyber-dragon.net (899244)]

Ballmer? You are on /.? I didn't think you an Anonymous Coward though.

Re:A lot of value...

[XenoPhage (242134)]

The kid wasn't having difficulty, the mother was.

From her comments, I doubt she even installed XP. It probably came preinstalled, and her complaint is with the complexity of installing any OS.

I didn't get that feeling from the article. This was at ITxpo, not Joe's Supermarket. I have to imagine that the majority of attendees are computer literate and work in the IT field.

Ballmer's comment was spot-on - the daughter saw value in Vista's widgets - and the mother's response was fallacious and nonsensical ("She's 13" - so what, her opinion means nothing, while her ignorant, incapable mother's should be taken seriously? Children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way.)

A 13 year old sees the shiny and wants to have it for their own. While they have opinions, and they should be respected, that doesn't necessarily mean they are right.

From TFA, it sounds like mom installed the OS and then spent two days fighting with inadequate drivers and other problems. She specifically states that "It's safe, it works, all the hardware is fine, and everything is great" when she refers to XP. The fact that she indicates hardware in there makes me think there were hardware issues with Vista.

I'm sure the daughter's friend had a good install of Vista, though it was likely due to purchasing a new computer, not upgrading an old one. Seems Vista sucks on anything not brand new. Contrast that with my Linux box here, running on an old Pentium 4 with an outdated video card. Runs blazingly fast, even with Beryl installed and running. I guarantee I couldn't turn on the flashy effects in Vista if I could get it to install on this same machine.

funeral's saturday

[moderatorrater (1095745)]

The mom's body was later found floating in a river. The cause of death: chair-related injuries.

Am I reading that right?

[techpawn (969834)]

Ballmer said that Vista is bigger than XP, and 'for some people that's an issue, and it's not going to get smaller in any significant way in SP1. But machines are constantly getting bigger, and [it's] probably important to remember that as well.'

Does that sound like they're proud to be bloat and have no plans to reduce because machines are getting bigger?

Re:Am I reading that right?

[Mr. Underbridge (666784)]

Does that sound like they're proud to be bloat and have no plans to reduce because machines are getting bigger?

No, but it makes sense in a twisted way for MS. What are they averaging, 5 years between major releases? When you have that long between releases you have to balance the featureset you want to include against the fact that it's going to be a long time before the next OS release. As a result, it makes sense that you design it such that the full 'experience' will just barely run on a decent new machine at release.

This does illustrate the utility of more frequent releases.

Re:Am I reading that right?

[Workaphobia (931620)]

Oh absolutely. When machines get more powerful and can perform the same function for a tenth of the cost, they won't sell you the same machine at the reduced price running the same software. They'll sell you a more powerful machine at the same price, and upgrade your software's bloat to make you require the horsepower.

Funny how I can pretty much do everything I do with my new lenovo T61 windows (formally vista, now XP) laptop, on my six (?) year old 1.2 GHz Sempron running gentoo.

Value = Gadgets

[langelgjm (860756)]

So the "value" that the woman's 13 year-old daughter saw were Vista's gadgets:

My daughter comes in one day and says, 'Hey Mom, my friend has Vista, and it has these neat little things called gadgets -- I need those.'

I'm glad the end-user is seeing so much value in Vista.

Value = Subjective

[Mongoose Disciple (722373)]

Selling an OS is, in this respect, not a lot different from selling a car.

Some buy their cars for the greatest reliability. Some for performance or efficiency. Some people buy their car to have the newest and flashiest on the block. Some for safety. Some because they know the brand or it's what their friends have.

And some people just fall in love with the color or, wow, big cupholders or heated seats, and they're sold.

Obligatory Neil Stephenson:

[Mongoose Disciple (722373)]

This reminds me of Stephenson's In The Beginning There Was The Command Line [cryptonomicon.com], which is a little dated now but still pretty funny. He describes the various OSes as different car dealerships, and Windows as an unreliable station wagon that for some reason 90% of the potential customers buy.

"With one exception, that is: Linux, which is right next door, and which is not a business at all. It's a bunch of RVs, yurts, tepees, and geodesic domes set up in a field and organized by consensus. The people who live there are making tanks. These are not old-fashioned, cast-iron Soviet tanks; these are more like the M1 tanks of the U.S. Army, made of space-age materials and jammed with sophisticated technology from one end to the other. But they are better than Army tanks. They've been modified in such a way that they never, ever break down, are light and maneuverable enough to use on ordinary streets, and use no more fuel than a subcompact car. These tanks are being cranked out, on the spot, at a terrific pace, and a vast number of them are lined up along the edge of the road with keys in the ignition. Anyone who wants can simply climb into one and drive it away for free."

And:

"The group giving away the free tanks only stays alive because it is staffed by volunteers, who are lined up at the edge of the street with bullhorns, trying to draw customers' attention to this incredible situation. A typical conversation goes something like this:

Hacker with bullhorn: "Save your money! Accept one of our free tanks! It is invulnerable, and can drive across rocks and swamps at ninety miles an hour while getting a hundred miles to the gallon!"

Prospective station wagon buyer: "I know what you say is true...but...er...I don't know how to maintain a tank!"

Bullhorn: "You don't know how to maintain a station wagon either!"

Buyer: "But this dealership has mechanics on staff. If something goes wrong with my station wagon, I can take a day off work, bring it here, and pay them to work on it while I sit in the waiting room for hours, listening to elevator music."

Bullhorn: "But if you accept one of our free tanks we will send volunteers to your house to fix it for free while you sleep!"

Buyer: "Stay away from my house, you freak!"

Bullhorn: "But..."

Buyer: "Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?""

Re:Value = Gadgets

[RonnyJ (651856)]

I feel it's somewhat hypocritical of the mother to use the fact that her daugher was 13 as a defence - if she really placed little value in her daughter's opinion, she shouldn't have bought it solely on that opinion in the first place.

Re:Value = Gadgets

[everphilski (877346)]

Precisely. She's not willing to be held accountable for the fact that, in the end, she made the operating system purchase and was not pleased with it. So she's blaming Steve because her precious daughter 'doesn't know any better' ... even though she was apparently the sole motivation for the purchase. It's sad how little personal accountability people have these days.

Re:Value = Gadgets

[MightyMartian (840721)]

Obviously you've never had kids. "Mom, my best friend has Vista, and it's so kewl. Can you install it!"

"Fine dear."

Three days later...

"Mom, I can't figure out how to use this. Where's my music? How do I get my pictures off my digital camera? How come the printer won't work? Why does it keep asking me these stupid questions?"

After three days of that, I'd be pretty hot under the collar too.

He basically told her, "You're wrong."

[Rimbo (139781)]

If Microsoft were anything other than one of the most dominant monopolies the world has ever seen, this would be a hideous and grave error.

As it is, people just shrug their shoulders and say, "Who is John Galt?"

Re:Should it be any different?

[ackthpt (218170)]

Look at this from someone else's perspective for a bit. These are decent products that microsoft is offering, and integrating them and preinstalling as much as possible is good for the consumer, provided they can afford it. After all, how many people find it worthwhile to use Linux From Scratch? Sure, it's a great learning experience, but most computer users don't want a learning experience, they want a fully functional computer.

The intent seems admirable if it were altruistic, but Microsoft have shown their predatory stripes. They very nearly undid the major anti-virus industry by initially refusing to include that large business sector in to see their code. Microsoft would certainly like to hold all the cards, but that very attempt could have doomed them as businesses would want to know why Norton, McAfee, etc are not there to protect them because Microsoft believed (the very company which left so many security holes in Win95, Active X and Win XP) they could do a better job of protecting the buyer.

Microsoft bundles average quality products and gives their own line of products the inside track, which have hurt competitors for years. You might check your system performance monitor to see how much memory is being used when you first boot up and like to know why 380+ MB of memory are in use before you launch your first app. Microsoft have preloaded a tonne of library code in case you might run Explorer or Office apps. That you don't have Office doesn't seem to derail the boot process from including them to occupy your memory anyway. All this to make Microsoft's apps appear to load faster. Try loading a competitor's apps and see how many seconds you have to wait for them to open up.

The ulitimate in useability is to keep the damn system lean and let the user decide how much crap they want when they build/install and OS. You should always be able to go back to the distro and add more, but you don't really get a choice with Windows, do you?

Systems get bigger because they have to - to be able to run Windows.

Love/Hate Relationship?

[Aladrin (926209)]

So, in short, the 13 yr old had no problem with it, but the mother couldn't understand it, so it's a bad OS? Yeah, that's GREAT logic.

Also, "she's 13" is not a valid retort for why it shouldn't matter that she found value in it. She obviously knew how to use it more than the mother did.

Ballmer was in an impossible situation here. He could make her look the complete fool and catch hell for picking on that woman, or let her 'win' and catch hell for letting a woman beat up his operating system. He chose the right route, for once.

For the record, Vista was the wrong route.

Re:Love/Hate Relationship?

[stewbacca (1033764)]

Also, "she's 13" is not a valid retort for why it shouldn't matter that she found value in it

Actually it is the PERFECT retort, because it shows just how out-of-touch Microsoft is. Teenagers don't care about value, because they have no concept of what value is.

Re:Love/Hate Relationship?

[Tibor the Hun (143056)]

Also, "she's 13" is not a valid retort for why it shouldn't matter that she found value in it. She obviously knew how to use it more than the mother did.

Quite wrong. 13 year olds see a lot of value in Zwinkies, expensive ring-tones, and fake plastic jewelry. So when it comes to deciding value, "she's 13" is a perfectly good answer. (Next time you have a grand to spend on a home project, ask your 13 year old to be in charge.)

Secondly, nowhere there does it say that she knew how to "use" it. What does she know how to use? She saw some eye-candy and wanted it for herself.

I agree that Vista is the wrong route, and that Ballmer was in a tight spot. Nevertheless, he took 7 years to create that tight spot, and he just reaped a bit of what he sowed.

Yikes!

[Otter (3800)]

I can't say I'm looking forward to Mom's arrival in #gentoo...

I hate to be the one defending Microsoft, but...

[Perseid (660451)]

...in my experience Vista is easier to transition to than most operating systems I've upgraded. Most hardware still works. Every program I've tried so far has worked. Can you say the same thing for 98 to XP? No. OS 9 to OS X? No. Linux to newer Linux? Well, yes. :)

Take a machine that runs 98 tolerably well and upgrade it to XP. Pain. Take a machine that runs XP tolerably well and upgrade it to Vista. Pain. Nothing is new here. You upgrade your OS and you'll probably need to upgrade your hardware too. And purchasers that doesn't realize this only have themselves to blame. Did I just agree with Steve Ballmer? Damn it, get me a razor blade...

Oh yeah let's bash MS !!

[Sciros (986030)]

Vista is NOT harder to use than XP. It's virtually the same, especially from the point of view of a non-power user. UAC might be a huge nuisance, but parents or whoever can just turn it off. I wouldn't give a 13-year-old admin privileges to a machine in the first place; you're just asking for trojans otherwise.

Ballmer was probably thinking "either you or your daugher or both are just stupid" but knew he couldn't say it so he was trying to be passive and just said some BS to try and get the lady off his case.

Why I am a (Mac/Linux/Fill-in-the-Blank) user

[stewbacca (1033764)]

Ballmer's response is a nice little nutshell of everything wrong with Microsoft and why I'm a home Mac user (replace Mac with Linux if you must, but the point is the same). Ballmer talks of "value", as if HOME USERS give a shit. Microsoft is in so deep to corporate ass kissing, they forget that there are millions of home users who use computers for things OTHER than work and "value" means something completely different to a home user. If I have to give into Mr. Ballmer's Econo-spin I'd have to tell him that "value" to me means I sit down at my computer and use it with as little fuss and interruption from the OS as possible. In this scenario, every flavor of Windows ever has very little value. My time and convenience have more "value" to me than any corporate bottom-line will ever have. In fact, I'd rather NOT be able to do something than be stuck in the perpetual co-dependent cycle that Microsoft has created.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I'm a home Mac user.

Scary

[suv4x4 (956391)]

That's it. I've never seen the public react this way to a Windows release before. Not Linux geeks, but the average Windows users.
Yea, yea, every new release faces nostalgia of the previous release blah blah. It's way worse here.
Average people call Vista shit. Businesses run away from it.

The Vista brand is ruined. Now even if they fix Vista, the brand will never recover.

I hope Microsoft learns something from this. First impression lasts forever. Don't release software unfinished.

why does /. still have a subject line?!

[blhack (921171)]

Don't you all see! Vista was a wise move by Microsoft. IT has been long been agreed upon that one major contributor to windows' insecurity is its popularity. If Microsoft comes out with an OS that nobody wants, they won't be popular anymore, and suddenly they'll have a secure OS!!!

DUH!

For the linux on the desktop folks..

[log0n (18224)]

Something interesting to take away from this. The 13 year old (the future of technology) wanted the gadgets - or rather - the useful yet entertaining and social aspects of Vista - rather than the technology underneath. Technology that serves a personal purpose, rather than technology that simply serves a purpose.

As we've all learned for ourselves now back when we started CS/IT/ENG/whatever, we constantly evolve using what we started with as a base. I can trace my usage of linux/unix now back to first using NextStations and IRIX boxes back in school.

What is Linux/Ubuntu/younameit doing to capitalize on the 13 year old market? What does Linux offer a teenager, or better yet, why would a teenage want to use Linux? Social interaction, gadgets/widgets, entertainment, etc may seem like a waste of purpose and time to us hardcore nerds, but these are very important to non-tech types. Once the 13 year old is interested, then the whole 'get em early' evolution begins.

A great example is the XO laptop. The XO has considered the social target audience of the product like few other hardware and software developers previously (except maybe Apple). As such, every review of the laptop so far by a schoolage child (the target) loves it. For Linux to succeed on the desktop for the masses, developers needs to consider what the desktop for the masses actually is - not what developers think the desktop to be where the masses adapt.

Where's the Beef?

[geeknado (1117395)]

What I'm struck by in this article is a lack of the specific detail in her complaints. Was it too hard to install? Did it crash? Were the drivers lacking? Was there something baffling about the new interface to her? TFA makes it sound like she spent money, installed it, then said "Bah, XP was fine" before uninstalling it again. It's rather obvious that she installed it for skin-deep reasons driven by her daughter's preferences, but surely the reasons she uninstalled it were more considered.

This would've been a lot more interesting if she'd challenged him about the actual problems she encountered...Perhaps she did, and it just wasn't captured? Ah well.

Re:Sooo?

[njfuzzy (734116)]

It seems pretty simple to me. The mother, who cares about performance and utility, wasn't impressed. The tweenage daughter, who cares about gadgets and superficial appearances liked it.

Re:Sooo?

[Archangel Michael (180766)]

You obviously never been or had a 13 year old. They think all sorts of things have "a lot of value" based upon "peers opinion". In fact, Junior High is filled with various peer groups that base all sorts of things on the perceived value assigned to things by the peer group. As one grows up, many realize that 13 year olds don't really know jack about the world yet.

So, the retort from the mother is basically ... "she's 13 years old, she doesn't know jack, what else would you expect." Her retort nullifies the previous comment as only a mother of a 13 year old could, and it is quite amusing, IMHO.

Re:+1 Funny

[halcyon1234 (834388)]

I think this article would have been funnier if it was as I first read it-- that STEVE'S Mom showed up and bitched him out.

Re:+1 Funny

[Hijacked Public (999535)]

It is probably true.

But this is what you get from someone in a position like Ballmer's. Somewhere way down deep in the org chart someone was tasked with finding data that supports the assertion that Vista is the greatest OS ever. After looking through hundreds of charts and tables and graphs, and throwing them all out (issues per install....can't use that one) they probably discovered that the total number of issues, across all 50 or so copies they've sold so far, was lower if you weighted by the total lines of code in Vista.

That is what you get from the Ballmers of the world. One line of marketing. Never any raw data.

Re:Still

[Jonny_eh (765306)]

You have us on pins and needles, what was the file format she couldn't use?

Re:Still

[Duhavid (677874)]

Since I dont have either, maybe I should switch her.
I have nothing to lose, apparently.

mysterious

[CmdrGravy (645153)]

A mysterious, yet somehow incompatible, format you don't bother mentioning, mysterious. Very mysterious.

Re:Still

[Em Adespoton (792954)]

I installed Ubuntu on my wife's machine this last week, removing XP...

Wrong move indeed. First off, you shouldn't have removed XP until you knew Ubuntu did what she needed. Second, you should have started her off on Kubuntu, which will at least have a familiar interface.

As for your mysterious file format and your "forgetaboutit" OOo install, we'll need more info to refute/help you on those ones. I find that anyone who has used Office XP or earlier tends to enjoy using the latest OOo, unless they have a bunch of VB macros that don't work quite right, or some badly-created templates that don't display correctly.

Really, the only problem I've found so far for normal users is that Word documents don't always convert indices and other complex objects correctly, and need to be re-formatted once imported into ODF.

Re:Still

[ucblockhead (63650)]

In my experience, if you want your wife to stop bugging you about computer problems, buy her a Mac.

Re:Still

[Red Flayer (890720)]

In my experience, if you want your wife to stop bugging you about computer problems, buy her a Mac.

Well, my experience indicates that if you want your wife to stop bugging you, you should give her to Mac.

That is, if you know a guy named Mac, otherwise you may need to give her to Mike or John.

Re:Still

[wcrowe (94389)]

Can't argue with that one. The wife liked my iMac so much, she took it in the divorce.

There are two fatal blunders a man can make:
1. Never start a land war in Asia
2. Never try to divorce a divorce lawyer

Re:Still

[PaulMorel (962396)]

You must be new to this game. Here let me help you with some other good ones: Yes, she looks good in that outfit. Yes, you like what she made for dinner... You kind of like it burnt anyway. Yes, she is still as attractive as the day you met. No, you don't mind Hugh Grant movies. Yes, you like her family. Of course that restaurant is fine with you. Yes you have time to get those chores done this weekend. If you repeat those things enough, you may just get away with 3 computers, 4 remote controls, a basement full of electronics, and an occasional roll in the hay.

Re:Still

[eln (21727)]

You think that's bad? I installed Ubuntu, and not only did it fail to recognize my sound card, but it also stole my wallet, beat my wife, and impregnated my dog (and he's a boy!). Figuring that these were just the usual install problems, I decided to leave it running for a couple of days to see if things improved. Big mistake. During the night, Ubuntu planted marijuana all over my house and called the ATF. Luckily, it also blew up my car, the sound of which woke me up in time to escape. Now I'm living in a shack in Tierra del Fuego on the run from an international crime syndicate after Ubuntu stole my identity, ran away with my wife, and stole 300 kilos of Colombian nose candy from them.

I think I've had enough of Ubuntu. I'm going to try Gentoo next.

Re:Still

[JSG (82708)]

I had to look up ATF (I'm not from 'round there). BATF - Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. Interesting combination. I don't know where to start taking the piss.

Interestingly enough, if you install Gentoo it will not only blow up your car but actually build you a new one.

From raw materials.

Make sure you specify USE="steeringwheel trunk windshield". You'll have to wait a while though but it will be worth it. It will rebuild itself every week or so and occasionally change colour for no accountable reason.

After three years you will discover that USE="-clutch" would have been a good idea when it suddenly becomes a manual shift without warning. You should have paid attention to the build logs when emerging --deep --newuse world. Oh, and it goes like stink most of the time. Ok so sometimes you have to fix it yourself by renting a foundry and full workshop and talking to Formula 1 mechanics but hey, this is a ~x86 car.

Re:buy more chairs, Uncle Steve's coming over!

[griffjon (14945)]

User is complaining. Allow or Deny?

*click*

Re:Translated for the Lay

[jamstar7 (694492)]

"Let's start with the end user. Your daughter saw a lot of value," said Ballmer.

Translation: We spent a lot of money packing it with bloat.

Translation: "Our Marketting Department spent 5 years changing the specs for the Engineering Department based on focus groups stuffed with hydrocephalic chimpanzees. We gotta get our money back before our stockholders show up with pitchforks & torches and lynch us."

"Users appreciate the value that we put into Vista," he said. But, as with earlier operating system releases, "there is always a tension between the value that end users see -- and frankly, that software developers see -- and the value that we can deliver to IT."

Translation: No matter how many versions we have, it's still one size fits all. The tension is generated because our developers don't lead normal lives and see things the way ordinary people do, which makes the end product obfuscated and confusing

Translation: "Our chimpanze focus groups are fickle as hell and constantly change their minds from minute to minute. This leads to developement team frustration, so we were forced to sedate them. That didn't work so well, so now we're trying lobotomies..."

"When we initially shipped, fewer device drivers were ready for Vista than I would have liked, but we constantly worked with the device vendors to get new drivers available and implemented through our Windows update service," he said.

Translation: We rushed it to market. If we had waited until it was really ready we would have seen our stock drop. The premature release was purely driven by profit motives rather than care for our customers.

Translation: "Our developers couldn't keep up with our changing specs. Don't blame us, blame the chimpanzes."