Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments
Search

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

Weigh In On the OOXML Issue During Live Debate

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Wed Dec 05, 2007 07:52 AM
from the better-than-daytime-television dept.
GNOME GUI Microsoft
lisah writes "Linux.com's Robin 'Roblimo' Miller will moderate a live debate today, Wednesday, December 5 at 1pm US EST (GMT -5), between the GNOME Foundation's press officer Jeff Waugh and fair competition advocate Roy Schestowitz. Both have strong — and opposing — points of view regarding GNOME's involvement with Microsoft's OOXML standard and vehemently defend their positions, so getting them together in the same virtual room ought to prove quite interesting. Although the broadcast will be archived as a podcast and available for free download, you can listen live as it's recorded and also call in to participate and ask questions."
+ -
story

Related Stories

[+] GNOME Foundation Helping OOXML? 471 comments
christian.einfeldt writes "According to long-time OpenDocument Fellowship member Russell Ossendryver, it appears that GNOME founder Miguel de Icaza's widely-publicized praise for OOXML as a 'superb standard' is being followed up with on-going support by the GNOME Foundation in 'resolving' the thousands of criticisms leveled against Microsoft's proposed standard. In an open letter in his blog, Ossendryver urges the GNOME Foundation to halt its apparent support for OOXML as a standard and to put its efforts behind enhancing adoption of the genuinely open standard, ODF, which was approved by the world standards bodies as ISO/IEC standard 26300 on 2 May 2006."
Submission: Weigh in on the OOXML issue during live debate by lisah (987921)
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.

Weigh In On the OOXML Issue During Live Debate 50 Comments More /

 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.

  • Fun, fun, fun (Score:5, Funny)

    by cthulu_mt (1124113) on Wednesday December 05 2007, @08:03AM (#21583899)
    This should be like the youtube debates, only more asinine.

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      This book! (Holds the OOXML standard in his hand)

      Do you believe every word of it?
      • One book? I decided to actually see how big the standard is one day (6000 pages, right?) It was eight encyclopedias (~750 pages each). I'd rather carry the ODF standard any day.

    • Re: (Score:1, Offtopic)

      by NickCatal (865805)
      That is not possible...

      The Republican Youtube debate caused me to loose what little faith I had in CNN's ability to host a republican debate. It made the entire format look ridiculous (whereas I thought the Democratic one was great)
    • ... for those who can't be bothered to do the maths...

  • Irony (Score:3, Funny)

    by byolinux (535260) * on Wednesday December 05 2007, @08:06AM (#21583913) Journal
    "Those who do not wish to use proprietary software (Flash, MP3) to hear this conference over the Internet are also invited to use this call-in number. It will be active approximately 10 minutes before the live podcast begins."

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Slashidiot (1179447)
      Yes, it's funny how open source zealots have become something like vegans, and in some places (like linux.com) they have special menus (not so tasty, but good enough). It's like being allergic to mp3.
      • most vegans I know don't eat vegetables take control of their body and make them hear and see things they can't stop. crap like Flash is the opposite of what open source is trying to achieve, but if you want to give control of your computer to those who want to turn it into a 24x7 revenue source you go right ahead

        • most vegans I know don't eat vegetables take control of their body and make them hear and see things they can't stop.

          Did that make sense to you when you wrote it?

          • It didn't make much sense to me when I read it, but then I know some fish eating vegans and vegetarians. The vegans claim fish can't feel pain, because they have no central nervous system and the vegetarian hates fish and wants them all to die ASAP, he's quite amusing.
  • ... led me to a page saying "This Account Has Been Suspended" :-)


    Slashdotted already ? Or maybe the Novell boycotter also boycotted the invoices from the webhost ?

        • Re: (Score:1, Offtopic)

          by AmaDaden (794446)
          I am a separate Digg reader. Yes I do. Keep in mind there is also a lot stories on there that bash the hell out of MS and show off cool new things in Linux. It's like the vegan argument [slashdot.org] being made elsewhere. Yes I know that Digg has ties to things I wish it did not but if I always let things like that stop me then I would be living in a far more restricted life on the net. Hell, I remember seeing advertisements for MS studio on Slashdot. They might not have been from MS but since it's supporting MS in sligh

  • Which Side Will Say This First? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 05 2007, @08:18AM (#21583969)
    "Look, GNOME and Microsoft are both in the business of restricting what users can do with their computers - we just have different approaches. So let's work together!"

  • It's things like this that bug me about GNOME (Score:5, Insightful)

    by cozziewozzie (344246) on Wednesday December 05 2007, @08:19AM (#21583971)
    Without trying to stir up a flamewar, it is things like this one that bug me, and have always bugged me about the GNOME project. Far more than the technical issues, as the project has clearly been producing a lot of high-quality software.

    I see no reason why a project which was started as a direct response to another project perceived not to be completely Free (which was quite justified at that time) should have anything to do with certifying obfuscated formats made by monopolists or support their proprietary software platforms (see Mono) and pushes by some people within GNOME to make them a central part of the GNOME infrastructure. I don't understand experiments like Eazel, with big industry hotshots coming in to design proper interfaces for the masses who don't understand them, and there are other confusing examples. GNOME was originally a project with a political goal, so I don't understand how its politics have become so bizarre.

    As an external observer who doesn't use much GNOME technology, but values the contributions that the project has done to the Free Software landscape, I have to wonder what the hell some people in there are thinking. I realise that there are many different viewpoints within the GNOME project and that this issue is likely not as grave as some are trying to make it, but there is simply no excuse for supporting OOXML in my eyes. None.

    • Re:It's things like this that bug me about GNOME (Score:4, Insightful)

      by R_Dorothy (1096635) on Wednesday December 05 2007, @08:31AM (#21584047)

      GNOME was originally a project with a political goal, so I don't understand how its politics have become so bizarre.

      The clue to the second clause lies in the first.

    • Re:It's things like this that bug me about GNOME (Score:5, Interesting)

      by cloricus (691063) on Wednesday December 05 2007, @08:39AM (#21584107)
      What does it all have to do with GNOME anyway? Why is my desktop of choice even entering into a debate on OOXML. If the chap is supporting OOXML because he happens to think that Microsoft has struck gold in their waste land of creativity then that's fine. However if he (and others) are supporting it in the name of GNOME or its community then some thing really needs to be done to decouple this situation from my desktop.

      I think GNOME is the best thing since sliced bread and I defend its design chioces. I think OOXML has nothing to do with GNOME and therefor I ignore it completely (in this context). What is different between those on this bandwagon and myself?

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by JohnFluxx (413620)
        Doesn't gnumeric, abiword etc come under the umbrella term 'Gnome'? If so, then it is important to work out whether to support OOXML or not.
        • No it doesn't
        • Yes.

          I think it is more important to (try to) ensure Gnumeric works. So e.g. 1900 should be a leap year and ceiling() function rounds up (towards positive infinity). OOXML defines otherwise, btw.

      • I think OOXML has nothing to do with GNOME and therefor I ignore it completely (in this context).

        Of course it does. This is about replacing GConfd with an Excel spreadsheet in OOXML format. The current system is too simple, and doesn't have enough things that can go wrong, so clearly complications need to be introduced.

    • support their proprietary software platforms (see Mono) and pushes by some people within GNOME

      I thought Mono was an entirely seperate implementation of the technology that wasn't initially compatible with, or related to the microsoft .NET thing in any case.

      Not that I care much, I don't much like all this .NET style stuff anyway, my needs are somewhat simpler. C or Python (or both together, Mmm embedding...) fulfill all of my requirements, and they don't have any platform issues.

    • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      BTW, has anyone ever read and tried to understand this:

      http://www.gnome.org/press/releases/ecma-tc45-statement.html [gnome.org]

      I think having read this most of your points just do not stand anymore.

    • Re: (Score:1, Troll)

      by jdub! (24149)
      Of course, the problem with your comments is that the GNOME Foundation **doesn't** contribute to or endorse OOXML... We're drilling Microsoft for documentation, so we can make sure FLOSS products (not just GNOME products) can interoperate with it. In terms of conspiracy theories, that's not very potent. :-)

      There is a very valid point of disagreement: whether engagement will be perceived (or should be perceived) as support, and whether Microsoft will try to do that themselves. I hope that as a community, we
      • I am certainly not one of those KDE fanboys who will jump at every opportunity to berate GNOME, I am simply a bit confused with how certain things have been handled.

        Software freedom is something very important to me, as well as you, and I don't see how supporting an obfuscated, potentially patent-infested format designed not to be interoperable with anything, will do anything other than strengthen the position of the monopolist who is one of the main obstacles for more widespread adoption of Free Software i

        • Re: (Score:1, Troll)

          by jdub! (24149)
          Well, let's deal with these issues:

          I don't see how supporting an obfuscated, potentially patent-infested format designed not to be interoperable with anything, will do anything other than strengthen the position of the monopolist who is one of the main obstacles for more widespread adoption of Free Software in the first place.

          Everything in the software world is patent infested, but in this case the Microsoft Open Specification Promise covers OOXML 1.0. It may not cover future versions, you may not trust the

  • then can we also request a song and dedicate it to someone?

    "Hello, who's that?"
    "Hi Robin, it's Richard"
    "Hello Richard, do you have a question?"
    "Well actually, I wanted to request a song please"
    "Um, I'm sorry Richard, but this isn't that kind of show"
    "Oh, OK then."
    *Hangs up*
    "OK, if anyone has any questions, not song requests, then please call this number..."

  • Ad Hominem (Score:4, Funny)

    by cerberusss (660701) <.ln.kiuknav. .ta. .todhsals.> on Wednesday December 05 2007, @09:08AM (#21584345) Homepage Journal
    I'll be listening in and I'm really hoping for a lively debate with lots of ad hominem attacks.
    Jeff: "... and the document size is excellent!"
    Roy: "Yeah, but tell me one thing: why should we believe someone who cheats on his wife?"
  • sudo aptitude install kdebase

    Where have I been? Living under a rock?!
  • Just what we need, yet more sound and fury, absent any real information. Just two guys who never run out of words, and yet who never really say anything. Waste of time- go watch Springer; it's the same thing, plus chairs will be thrown.

  • TFA says the debate will be hosted at BlogTalkRadio [blogtalkradio.com]. Fine, but WTF is up with the meta tags on that page? Representative samples include:

    • AfroNerd
    • Field Negro
    • smart mobs
    • commercial space flight
    • pornography

    No one says a blog has to stay on-topic, of course, but that's... diverse.

    • OOXML itself might be the bastard mutant stepchild of DIVx [about.com], but there is some room for open source projects to pose for themselves that eternal question:

      You ever dance with the devil by the pale moonlight?--The Joker

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by aerthling (796790)
      Does it strike anyone else as strange that GNOME (which, I understand, began as an alternative to KDE because of its reliance on non-free software) is apparently such an enthusiastic supporter of Microsoft technologies like OOXML and .NET?

      • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Not if you follow the money it doesn't. Then it starts to make quite a great deal of sense.

      • Re:No point. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by IBBoard (1128019) on Wednesday December 05 2007, @08:51AM (#21584193) Homepage
        .Net? No. OOXML? Yes.

        For the developer who wants to spend his time developing applications rather than worrying about memory management then .Net is a great framework. The fact that it is cross-platform (as long as you're careful with windowing toolkits) is also a bonus. Microsoft purposefully released specs for the framework and it seems to be fairly well specified based on the amount of support in Mono.

        OOXML is a bit stranger for Gnome to get involved in. Surely it's something that apps like Open Office should be concerned about, not the desktop people? I'd rather they were putting their effort into improving some of the tools they do have rather than working in things they don't have to directly support.

        .

        Disclaimer: I use Linux, I even use Gnome (have done since Redhat 7.3), I enjoy the freedom and power of open source, and I do dual-boot Windows XP. I code my own projects in C# and don't hate things purely because they're MS, just because they're generally not as well specified or obviously flawed compared to alternatives.

        • .Net? No. OOXML? Yes.

          Didn't you mean ".Net? Yes. OOXML? No." ?

          OOXML is a bit stranger for Gnome to get involved in. Surely it's something that apps like Open Office should be concerned about, not the desktop people?

          They are not only "desktop people". I'm not too familiar with Gnome developement but isn't Gnome Office (Abiword,Gnumeric etc.) part of the Gnome project? ... OK, I just checked the Gnome Foundation members list: both Jody Goldberg and Morten Welinder of Gnumeric fame are members. Definitely not just "desktop people".

          • No, the parent post to that said "don't you think it's strange that..." so I was saying no it's not strange for .Net but yes it is string for OOXML. It wasn't "do I want .Net? No. Do I want OOXML? Yes" as that would just be crazy ;)

            Gnome people might not be just desktop people, but Gnome (to me and probably most people) is based around the desktop and the window management/appearance (yes, WM is metacity, but metacity is generally Gnome and not KDE). It includes various config apps and some of the core stuf

        • For the developer who wants to spend his time developing applications rather than worrying about memory management then .Net is a great framework.

          Cross-platform, garbage collected languages existed long before .NET rolled around. Is it really that much better than Python? And now that Java is FOSS, is there truly still a niche for C# on Linux? Hint: "no" works well for both.

          • I've never seen a "full app" written in Python, and especially not one for Windows, only small config utilities and the like for Gnome etc. It is possible, since Exaile is a Python app, but Python is still very much in the minority.

            As for Java, it still doesn't have the direct runable-ness of an exe that .Net does that Windows users are used to. If you're publishing for the non-tech savvy then that counts for a lot.

            There may have been other cross-platform, garbage collected languages before .Net, but how ma

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by metamatic (202216)

              As for Java, it still doesn't have the direct runable-ness of an exe that .Net does that Windows users are used to.

              And whose fault is that?

              Answer: Microsoft, for not including a JRE in Windows. Apple has a JRE, you can just directly run a .jar executable. It could be that way on Windows if Microsoft wasn't hell-bent to destroy Java.

              (Also, I don't have a .NET runtime on any of my computers, and .NET exes are totally unrunnable on all of them, including the Windows ones.)

              • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

                by IBBoard (1128019)
                Answer 2: it is also Sun's for having JAR files that aren't necessarily executable and can't be differentiated from library JARs. .Net, on the other hand, has .exe for executable and .dll for library code (normally). To your basic user then that's far more accessible and understandable than these strange JAR files that sometimes run and sometimes don't.

                Even after I've installed Sun's JRE/JDK on Windows then JAR files end up with a "text file" icon. That's sure to confuse people and should be something that

                • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

                  by Anonymous Coward
                  Let me start by saying that i am EXTREMELY ignorant on the topic at hand.

                  But I have been using Azureus on windows and I never had to wonder about JAR or not JAR with it.

                  At the end of the day it's all up to the people who package the software.
                • I actually like the fact that jar is both an executable and library.

                  In .Net, I HAVE to create a project as a library to use Classes in another project. I can't use classes in EXE files at all.

                  With a jar, I can execute it and it runs, or I can use it as a library, no problems. If it doesn't have an Executable class defined it fails.
                  • And, importantly from a non-techy point of view, it normally fails without a visible message.

                    Okay, so .Net apps aren't greatly better with their cryptic error and error number, but at least it gives you something to look for to work out why it isn't working.

                    Jars being libraries and executables can be advantageous in one way but at the same time then it is a bit like bending to rules and botching a solution. Yes, you can re-use an app that is Jared up as a library for another app, but that then means you've

            • I've never seen a "full app" written in Python, and especially not one for Windows

              I was under the impression that Bittorrent was rather popular with the kids.

              There may have been other cross-platform, garbage collected languages before .Net, but how many of them are as widely installed?

              On Linux, many of them. Since the question at hand involves Gnome software, that seems pretty relevant.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        There's no smoking gun, but Miguel's own writings on the topic suggest that even GNOME was intended to be a playpen for him to start cloning Microsoft's technologies. From http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/gnome-history.html [ximian.com]:

        At Microsoft I learned the truth about ActiveX and COM and I got very interested in it inmediately. Upon my return to Mexico Federico and I started to design a GUI control infrastructure for Unix that we code named `GNOME'. He was working as the maintainer of the GIMP back th

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2009 Geeknet, Inc.