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Software Missing From Vista's "Official Apps"

Posted by Zonk on Thu Feb 22, 2007 03:27 PM
from the big-holes dept.
PetManimal writes "Microsoft has just released a list of 800 applications it says are 'officially supported' on Windows Vista. What's special about this list, however, are the programs that are not included: 'Popular Windows software that is conspicuously missing from Microsoft's list includes Adobe Systems Inc.'s entire line of graphics and multimedia software, Symantec Corp.'s security products, as well as the Mozilla Foundation's open-source Firefox Web browser, Skype Ltd.'s free voice-over-IP software and the OpenOffice.org alternative to Microsoft Office.' Another area in which Vista has found to be lacking is gaming, as discussed earlier on Slashdot."
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[+] Games: Vista Not Playing Nice With FPS Games 437 comments
PetManimal writes "Computerworld is reporting that gamers who have installed Vista are reporting problems with first person-shooter titles such as CounterStrike, Half-Life 2, Doom 3. and F.E.A.R. (Users have compiled lists of games with Vista issues.) The complaints, which have turned up on gamers' forums, cite crashes and low frame rates. Not surprisingly, the problems relate to graphics hardware and software: 'Experts blame still-flaky software drivers, Vista's complexity, and a dearth of new video cards optimized for Vista's new rendering technology, DirectX 10. That's despite promises from Microsoft that Vista is backwards-compatible with XP's graphic engine, DirectX 9, and that it will support existing games. Meanwhile, games written to take advantage of DirectX 10 have been slow to emerge. And one Nvidia executive predicts that gamers may not routinely see games optimized for DirectX 10 until mid-2008.'"
[+] Vista Sales Expectations Too High, Office Doing Well 320 comments
PetManimal writes "A comparison of first-week retail sales of Vista compared to first-week sales of XP back in 2001 found that Vista sales were 60% lower. Steve Ballmer has admitted that earlier sales forecasts were 'overly aggressive,' but at least there is some good news for Microsoft: early Office 2007 sales were very strong compared to the early sales of Office 2003, despite almost no advertising or marketing until the retail launch at the end of January."
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  • by pudding7 (584715) on Thursday February 22 2007, @03:31PM (#18113168)
    ...then don't use it.
    • by biocute (936687) on Thursday February 22 2007, @03:34PM (#18113232) Homepage
      Exactly.

      I have heard statements like "If only Mac has this and that software, I would switch in a second" or "If only Linux has more games, I would leave Windows forever".

      So now that Windows doesn't have support for this and that software, it has given users a chance to revisit those statements above and make a decision.
      • by h2_plus_O (976551) on Thursday February 22 2007, @04:57PM (#18114592)

        So now that Windows doesn't have support for this and that software
        Actually, it does. Don't confuse logo certification with anything but what it is: a process where a MS-certified testing organization (like these guys [wipro.com]) verifies that your app Conforms to specific guidelines [mrmpslc.com] that you really want your apps doing anyhow if you want them to run on Windows. This is what they check for [microsoft.com], so there are no surprises.

        It's not like your app won't work if it's not certified (otherwise how would they test it?). Being logo-certified just means you get to put a sticker on your retail box so that shoppers who only know that 'it's gotta work for me and I have windows' have some way to know it's been verified to pass those tests on their OS.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          Oh, and it also costs $20,000 or so to do. Something not all companies really want to do for dubious (if any) benefit.
          • by Kalriath (849904) on Thursday February 22 2007, @05:50PM (#18115440)
            I'm going to have to correct myself here. I have once seen it cost this much, however it must have been reduced recently as it now only costs $1,000. And for the "first 1,000 to apply, Microsoft will pay the testing fees" so you get free certification (did that sound like an infomercial?)

            Still, the time requirements are quite high, and even $1000 is a quite high cost for what is an infinitesmal (if even that) perceived benefit.
            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              Still, the time requirements are quite high, and even $1000 is a quite high cost for what is an infinitesmal (if even that) perceived benefit.
              Sure it's high... for shareware perhaps. But if you're selling an antivirus package to Joe Consumer and he gets to choose between your competitor's which is fully certified to run on Windows and your which isn't, guess which he'll choose? I think that's worth far more than $1000.
               
      • Actually Vista has a Classic Windows mode like OSX has a Carbon mode for Classic Macintosh, it does the whole WIN32 API. Any application that does not work just needs the API interface changed to work with Vista.

        Just like when applications that would not work under OSX got patches released to make them work, so will Windows programs get that Vista patch to make them work under Vista.

        I am using Vista and Firefox, Thunderbird, and Seamonkey all work, but Mozilla did not bother to test them to pass the Vista certification.

        While there are a lot of commercial games that won't work under Vista due to draconian security protection preventing them, one can apply unprotect patches to bypass that draconian security protection from Game Copy World or whatever with the NOCD crack. Future commercial games will support DirectX 10, and only Vista uses DirectX 10, which means future games will shut out the Windows XP and lower markets because they cannot do DirectX 10. Civilization IV might have issues, for example, but Civilization V might not and only run under Vista.

        Just like everyone moved to OSX and shut out the Classic Mac OS 9 and under crowd, so too will everyone move to Vista and shut out the XP and under crowd.

        Yet I got a feeling that a lot of F/OSS projects will still support XP and under, despite the commercial software companies that have contracts with Microsoft to only make Vista versions.
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          Future commercial games will support DirectX 10, and only Vista uses DirectX 10, which means future games will shut out the Windows XP and lower markets because they cannot do DirectX 10. Civilization IV might have issues, for example, but Civilization V might not and only run under Vista.

          At some point probably yes, but this is several years away. The vast majority of the game industry is still developing for DX9 exclusively, and even those who are planning to support DX10 will provide an alternative DX9

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          Just like everyone moved to OSX and shut out the Classic Mac OS 9 and under crowd, so too will everyone move to Vista and shut out the XP and under crowd.

          Not sure that this is comparing, er... apples to apples :->

          • OS X didn't really get usable until 10.2 or thereabouts. Never mind - Vista SP1 is already in the pipeline!
          • For a decent interval, new macs came configured to dual-boot OSX or OS9, and support for running OS9 in a "compatibility box" hung around until the switch to intel.
          • OS9 was hopelessly
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Yup. I guess all those graphics professionals who need to upgrade will have to either find a machine that still comes with XP or get a Mac. All those people who need OpenOffice or Mozilla will have to stick with XP or move to *NIX.
    • by EmbeddedJanitor (597831) on Thursday February 22 2007, @03:36PM (#18113282)
      Wel from MS's perspective anyway. The main purpose of Vista is to generate huge piles of income and revitalising interest to keep MS "fresh" in the eyes of the investors.
      • by Trogre (513942) on Thursday February 22 2007, @04:11PM (#18113878) Homepage
        Which brings one to the conclusion that you(*), the purchaser of Microsoft products are not the customer. The shareholder is the customer.

        You are the product.

        (*) - That's "you" in a general sense. I in no way mean to accuse you personally of actually purchasing said software.

        • by EmbeddedJanitor (597831) on Thursday February 22 2007, @04:33PM (#18114192)
          Parent is utterly correct. The people that buy MS products are not the customers, they are Microsoft assets.

          What does Microsoft have? They have market share (ie. a customer base). They don't have particularly innovative or high quality software products/services and their revenues are largely independent of their offerings. They have you (*). They just have to keep finding ways to repackage you (*) to keep generating income. If MS didn't make Vista, they'd keep selling XP. However, it is very hard to keep dishing up left overs and still keep a straight face. Vista is a statement more than a product.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          How does Microsoft profit from its stock price?
    • by moronikos (595352) on Thursday February 22 2007, @03:57PM (#18113660) Journal
      Hell, they all probably work. Firefox sure does. They just haven't been certified. The certification process takes a while and you have to pay for it. Microsoft sets the requirements and some 3rd party company administers it. After the 3rd party company has certified your product, then you can put the Vista (or XP) logo on your product. You also get listed on Microsoft's web site as having a certified product. Not being on the list means you either 1) haven't bothered to be certified, or 2) you failed certification. It doesn't mean the software doesn't run on that platform.
      • by jimicus (737525) on Thursday February 22 2007, @05:13PM (#18114846) Homepage
        Exactly. "Unsupported" is a magic word used by tech support departments so they can wash their hands of the problem.

        Your OS keeps crashing? You're running an unsupported application. Go away and don't come back until you've fixed that.

        Still crashing? You must be running unsupported hardware. What's the exact make and model number of every single component in your PC? You don't know? Go away and come back when you do.

        Hardware vendors are just as bad:

        Your hard disk appears to have failed? Sorry, you're running an unsupported operating system. Go away.

        Your power supply has exploded? Sorry, we only support people who don't actually ring up requiring support.

        Your power supply has caught fire, destroying your house and all your belongings? [click]
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      I'm still shocked when I see forum and blog posts that sound like this:

      "Vista is awsome! I absolutely love it!

      But I can't run this app, or that app, and my favorite game won't run on it.

      Vista rocks!"

      How can you like an OS that doesn't run your applications? That's its sole purpose in life! If it supports every app you need, then go ahead and love it. But if it doesn't run something you find critical then it's useless to you.
    • Many stores like Fry's and Best Buy along with "custom" order computers like Dell and Gateway have all but removed windows XP from their selection. It's been a common point in the news lately that almost everybody out there selling computers has practically ousted XP in favor of Vista. The fact is, the customers don't really have an option to buy a computer with XP and very few are going to jump at the idea of spending an extra $100 to get the old operating system.

      Take note, I'm not talking about the a
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        I don't know about Counterstrike, but those others are also on my frequent use list and I haven't had a problem with them under Vista.
  • RTFA (Score:5, Insightful)

    by eln (21727) on Thursday February 22 2007, @03:32PM (#18113202) Homepage
    From TFA:

    There are many applications that are compatible and work well with Windows Vista but that are not listed in this article. This is because such applications have not yet gone through the Windows Vista logo program or are still going though this program.


    Has the Mozilla Foundation or OO.org submitted an application to undergo the testing program? Probably not.

    This list is just the programs that are allowed to put that official Microsoft logo on the box that says the program will work with Windows. It doesn't mean that programs whose developers haven't bothered to go through the testing program aren't going to work in Vista.
    • Re:RTFA (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Undertaker43017 (586306) on Thursday February 22 2007, @03:39PM (#18113318)
      Exactly! This is simply a "branding" program by MS, pay them money, run their tests, pass their tests, and you can put their logo on your product.

      Must be a slow news day...
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          The intent isn't to shun people from using Vista. It's to get eyeballs and therefore advertising dollars. The editors here at /. don't care if you run Vista. Most bloggers don't care if you run Vista. But a well written post bashing Vista gets spread around. News corporations make a lot more money reporting negative news than positive news. It grabs more attention.
  • by MyNameIsEarl (917015) <assf2000.yahoo@com> on Thursday February 22 2007, @03:33PM (#18113208)
    Doesn't this just mean that if you can't get an Adobe product to work on Vista you need to go to Adobe as you would under any other OS? Why should MS need to help you make an Adobe product work on their OS, Adobe should be the ones making it work. I use Adobe as my example so the Open Source fans don't get in an uproar about MS keeping the competition down (not that they aren't, but I don't feel they are here).
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      Why should MS need to help you make an Adobe product work on their OS

      Well, they don't have to initially - except that it would be in their interest if they didn't have a monopoly on desktop OS. But once the initial port is done, they do have a responsibility to customers who updated with an expectation of backward compatibility. Especially if the Adobe products in question are certified on XP or the previous OS is no longer available on most new PCs.
  • by EvilSS (557649) on Thursday February 22 2007, @03:35PM (#18113248)
    ...were submitted for "Windows Vista" logo certification? If not, then, uh, what the hell is the point of this article? If you look at the title of the page linked to, it clearly says 'Applications that have earned the "Certified for Windows Vista" logo or the "Works with Windows Vista" logo'. From further down:

    "The tables in the "More Information" section list the products that currently have earned the "Certified for Windows Vista" logo or the "Works with Windows Vista" logo. There are many applications that are compatible and work well with Windows Vista but that are not listed in this article. This is because such applications have not yet gone through the Windows Vista logo program or are still going though this program."

    So I guess we should blame adobe, firefox, etc. for not being on the ball and submitting their apps? Is that the point of this article? Or just more VistaFud(TM)
  • Non-story. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Atlantis-Rising (857278) on Thursday February 22 2007, @03:36PM (#18113258) Homepage
    This is a non-story, sensational only in its attempt to stir up a hornet's nest. (But this is Slashdot, so why am I surprised?)

    There's no story here. There is some vague hint in the summary that Microsoft is purposefully not certifying software, but this is a vague and unsupported claim at best. The only real claim that can be made is that some software is not on the list... and so what? There are dozens of reasons. The software could A) not work with Vista, b) not have been submitted for testing, C) be in the process of going through the process...

    What's the point? As another poster said, if it doesn't work, don't use it.
  • Wait for SP1 (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jmorris42 (1458) * <jmorris@bea[ ]rg ['u.o' in gap]> on Thursday February 22 2007, @03:36PM (#18113264) Homepage
    Oh course Vista is a turd now, like every other Microsoft release. Which is why anyone with a lick of sense waits until the first service pack before deploying. Then it will only suck, but that is about as good as Microsoft knows how to make a product so those stuck on Windows have learned to live with that level of pain.

    Of course ya just gotta feel sorry for the poor schmucks who buy a new namebrand PC between the release of Vista and SP1 since they don't get a choice. Which is just one more reason why only the uneducated masses buy a namebrand PC.
  • by SuperKendall (25149) on Thursday February 22 2007, @03:56PM (#18113618)
    Another area in which Vista has found to be lacking is gaming...

    And people still claim Vista's not an OS X ripoff. What more proof do you need?
  • Grain of salt (Score:3, Informative)

    by Cro Magnon (467622) on Thursday February 22 2007, @04:18PM (#18113998) Homepage Journal
    I don't consider that a reliable list. Firefox works great on Vista. I don't know about any of the other products except Symantic, which doesn't really work on XP.
  • by Bullfish (858648) on Thursday February 22 2007, @04:22PM (#18114048)
    They put out the OS, it is up to the software vendors to make sure their software works with the OS. They knew it was coming and certainly had the time. Also, as others have pointed out, this is just a seal of approval program and doesn't mean the software won't run in vista.
  • by DimGeo (694000) on Thursday February 22 2007, @04:58PM (#18114634) Homepage
    Here's my experience so far:
    Firefox works on the beta 2, on the RTM, and on the x64 versions of Vista.
    Skype doesn't seem to know what's Unicode on Vista x86. Actually, Skype 3.something just displayed an empty contact list on me. Skype 2.something works great, thanks to oldversion.com, but doesn't handle cyrillic [wikipedia.org] characters right.
  • by ClosedSource (238333) on Thursday February 22 2007, @07:21PM (#18116538)
    these poor third-party vendors would be ready.
  • Not even Office 2003 or Office XP are on the list. It seems Microsoft has not even tested older versions of its own software. So much for that backwards compatibility on Windows that everyone talks about.

    *I am aware that this article is in regards to certification and not compatibility. I'm just going along with the masses, since not many people commenting on this article care to recognize the difference!
  • Let's look at this list. (Disclaimer: I have never used Windows Vista.)

    Adobe Systems Inc.'s entire line of graphics and multimedia software
    I don't know about this one, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with stuff like the Netopsystems FEAD Optimizer.

    Symantec Corp.'s security products
    The software that's notorious for digging its claws into the depths of your operating system? Gee, I'm so surprised that it doesn't work the same as it does on XP.

    the Mozilla Foundation's open-source Firefox Web browser
    Firefox uses XUL for widgets, so it probably doesn't behave like a native app.

    Skype Ltd.'s free voice-over-IP software
    Skype contains a bunch of weird anti-reverse-engineering code [secdev.org]. I'm not surprised if it doesn't work perfectly without changes.

    OpenOffice.org
    It doesn't support open standards like Microsoft OpenXML. *snark*
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      From TFA:

      Adobe, which will face competition from Microsoft this year when Microsoft releases its Expression suite of graphics and multimedia design tools, did not immediately return a request to comment.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      Why should MS be doing the work? All that list refers to is the list of applications submitted to Microsoft's "Designed for Windows" logo program. The onus is on Mozilla and Adobe to submit their software, not Microsoft to try to include everything.

      FireFox works perfectly in Vista, so does Acrobat Reader. Photoshop doesn't, and drops the system into compatibility mode. Is this really Microsoft's fault?
    • It's not Microsoft's responsibility to make other people's software run on their OS. Obviously it's their responsibility to a fair market to not deliberately hinder other developers' software in favour of their own, and of course it is in Microsoft's best interests for the most part to make Windows as backwards compatible as possible (there's no point having a decade of software compatability lock-in only to throw it away for nothing).

      But of course a new OS will create compatability issues, and frankly many
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          Illustrator is the only program I've run into which can lock OS X up solid.

          You're not using InDesign enough, or using it hard enough. It can do it too.

          I've also had Illustrator not totally lock up OSX, but lock it up enough to where all I can do is move the beach ball around the screen and swear.

          That aside, there's only one company which produces crappier code than Adobe, and that's Microsoft. I look forward to the steaming pile of shit Microsoft will shovel into all those boxes marked "Expression" in th

    • I use Firefox all the time on Vista and it works as well as anything. I would have been surprised to see it "Certified" by Microsoft, though. I have OpenOffice installed, but I barely use it on that machine. OO Writer doesn't have any problems opening, at least. I really haven't had any problems with iTunes, other than the issue where if I use the Windows utility to Stop/Remove the iPod instead of ejecting it in iTunes, the next time I plug it into that machine, Windows tells me its hard drive may have
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        The Mozilla team has identified a couple dozen issues with Vista + Firefox (and Thunderbird). Some of them are fixed already (like making Firefox DPI aware), and some have yet to be (e.g. multiple UAC prompts when installing updates). Some are also "enhancements", like setting the default downloads folder to the new "Downloads" folder in the user's profile, instead of the desktop.

        Porobab the biggest one is this: they're considering implementing the same "Protected Mode" sandbox that IE7 uses to run the br
    • by Mr. Underbridge (666784) on Thursday February 22 2007, @04:29PM (#18114128)

      Microsoft isn't certifying the most popular competitors to it's own software. Pardon me if I don't appear shocked. I was a bit suprised to see Google's desktop search made the list though.

      I don't think that's it - I think it's just a rubber-stamp list of whoever signed up, paid their fee, and jumped through the hoops. If they were excluding competitors, I really don't think Google Toolbar would have made the list.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      Certifying Firefox would be pointless anyway, a certificate would be good only for a specific build and one patch would mess that up again.
    • According to the design department over here, Adobe products aren't even made for the PC.

      I wish that were true. Sadly, Adobe has several products for which they have dropped the Mac version completely (like Framemaker, where prior to this decision is accounted for 60% of their market). In my experience a lot of Adobe products are held back because they take care to keep them as close on Windows and the Mac as possible, meaning they ignore most of the really cool features of OS X that MS has not yet copied on Windows.

      With Adobe's acquisition of Macromedia, MS decided it was time to take acti

        • Would you care to explain what functionality useful to any Adobe application is present on OSX and not present on Windows XP?

          Sure. Adobe apps generally ignore system services and do not use that mechanism to share functionality between Adobe apps, instead implementing their own, limited variant that clones the behavior on Windows. As a result, Adobe apps waste the resources needed to duplicate functionality implemented by Adobe apps and other apps as well. They ignore even the default Apple included services like the dictionary/thesaurus service.

          Adobe ignores most of the core graphics APIs that make it trivial for me to do som