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France Bans BlackBerries In Govt. On Fears of Spying
Posted by
Zonk
on Fri Jun 22, 2007 09:43 AM
from the not-their-kind-of-pie-i-guess dept.
from the not-their-kind-of-pie-i-guess dept.
DesertBlade writes "French government officials are no longer allowed to use BlackBerries for official correspondence. The reason? Fear that the US government will snoop out French national secrets via RIM's network. From the article: '"The risks of interception are real. It is economic war," daily Le Monde quoted Alain Juillet, in charge of economic intelligence for the government, as saying. With BlackBerries, there is "a problem with the protection of information," he said. Juillet's office confirmed that he spoke to Le Monde but said he would not talk to other reporters. Officials at the presidential Elysee Palace and the prime minister's office were not immediately available for comment. Le Monde said information sent from BlackBerries goes through servers in the United States and Britain, and that France fears that the U.S. National Security Agency can snoop.'"
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IT: Blackberry "Spy" Software Released 91 comments
Noryungi writes "Maybe the French were on to something after all. It turns out that there is a software available to easily spy on Blackberries, recording voice conversations and all messages (emails or SMS text message) that transmit through the portable device. Of course, the software has to be installed by the owner of the Blackberry, but it would not be surprising to find out that someone has found a way to silently auto-install that software on RIM devices. ZDNet reports that RIM isn't concerned: 'Ian Robertson, senior manager of security and research at RIM, said users need not be particularly worried about the capability of FlexiSPY. "While it's the subject of some debate, I don't consider it a virus nor a Trojan, as it does require conscientious effort from the user to load the program," he said. Robertson said an average user that maintains good [gadget] hygiene would never see the software loaded onto their device without their knowledge.'"
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Entirely plausible, even likely. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Entirely plausible, even likely. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
It's been going on longer than that (Score:5, Interesting)
This was why Australia tried to withdraw from Echelon, and outed the project when we whined. We refused to let them redact sensitive information regarding Australian businesses from the data, and they knew we were using it against them even though we were partners in the project.
Parent
Re:It's been going on longer than that (Score:5, Informative)
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:It's been going on longer than that (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:It's been going on longer than that (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:It's been going on longer than that (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Duh (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
20 years ago I would have thought such claims to be paranoid conspiracies. I remember rumours about the existence of ECHELON, and strenuous denials of its existence from my own government (the government of New Zealand) and other involved governments. Then, five or six years ago, the Australians admitted it existed, and that i
Pointless demand (Score:2, Interesting)
It wasn't Airbus (Score:3, Informative)
Industrial Espionage (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Industrial Espionage (Score:5, Insightful)
Psychologists call this "projection. [wikipedia.org]" That's why adulterers are more likely to accuse their spouse of cheating, etc.
That said, we both probably spy on each other as much as possible.
--JoeParent
Re:Industrial Espionage (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
It's not unreasonable (Score:5, Insightful)
Even when laws are obeyed they differ from country to country, and one country might not appreciate the latitude (or lack of it) in the way another country handles information and espionage.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Currently? Why would they have ever trusted them? This time period is little different from the Cold War era. The only serious change is that it is now easier than ever for the Government to automatically spy and have less chance of getting caught.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm afraid that the USA makes an easy target for outrage and will always be an easy target.
Spying is necessary. Every nation is looking out for its own self interests. Spying on government entitites is fair game. Spying on your own citizens is not. It is a very fine ethical line but as long as the focus is fore
isn't RIM Canadian? (Score:4, Insightful)
2. would a Canadian like to clear their throat and defend a Canadian company accused of complicity with US Spying? seems like France is insulting Canada more than the US here
i think the real culprit here is economic competition. it's not outright economic protectionism, but it's a shrewd effort at spreading FUD to protect the real goal: the nurturing of a Fench homegrown RIM alternative
maybe the French are just pissed that the Internet didn't grow from Minitel [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Ooh, good homework, respect.
Your point re FUD is certainly a good one though although I'm not aware of any French 'answer to Blackberry' systems about to hit the market.
Re:isn't RIM Canadian? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Seems rational (Score:5, Interesting)
The real news story would be any government organization, US or foreign, that _WAS_ entrusting valuable national secrets to a third party vendor anywhere. The US isn't the only country with ELINT, and unless you have a network that doesn't require external trust (eg, the encryption is done server side or via a proprietary program that could be compromised) there's every reason NOT to make it easy for someone to profit at your expense.
The minute God crapped out the third cave man, a conspiracy was hatched against one of them. You don't need to be a tin-foil wearing, taxi driving crazypants to know this.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
NO CARRIER
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I think i've figured it out - there's clearly a correlation between people typing directly into the request body of a HTTP POST request via a dial-up modem and those who are taken away from the government.
I use a browser and a real internet connection, so I'm not at risk.
Is RIM really that stupid? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Is RIM really that stupid? (Score:4, Interesting)
That's only true if you audit the entire Blackberry software stack for side-channel information leaks at the machine code level. I refer you to Ken Thompson's classic, Reflections on Trusting Trust. [acm.org] I've actually worked with a vendor that has tools for embedding special kinds of sentinels [arxan.com] in object code, taking an even more direct and undetectable route than Ken did.
They're right to be wary.
--JoeParent
The French should know a thing or two about spying (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.iht.com/articles/1991/09/14/spy_.php [iht.com] - an article about this from 1991.
Re:The French should know a thing or two about spy (Score:3, Interesting)
odd that they seem to be doing a 180 and are now CONCERNED (?) with privacy?
I know they now allow pgp encryption for the citizens, but for a long time, hardware vendors that shipped encryption had to 'worry' about how to deal with the french. very bizarre...
France, of course, knows about this stuff (Score:5, Interesting)
I recall being told never to trust the shredders in French hotel rooms: they may have a scanner. Can't find that online, though.
And they are right... (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I don't understand how/why these devices can be used by anyone, really, who cares for the privacy/secrets. The connection to your mail-server is not secured at all.
Even if device->RIM connection is secure (which is not certain, for they are using a proprietary protocol, AFAIK), you have to trust your privacy to RIM, a Canadian company foreign to most of its users.
Sure, they have a good incentive to keep your privacy, but it would be better still to just use an end-to-end secure connection directly to your servers (via IMAPS, for example). Devices capable of that are becoming available, and the wireless networks grow as well... RIM exploded in prominence because it did not use Internet Protocol and was able to deliver relatively light and power-efficient devices to do the job.
But technology is quickly eliminating that advantage — and the French may help create a better alternative, for a change.
No surprises here (Score:5, Insightful)
If I were worried about security I wouldn't think twice about banning them, no matter what country the mail servers were in. That being said, our govt and I am sure the French govt have skiffs for the really higher classification stuff.
Patrik
A FANTASTIC development!! (Score:5, Insightful)
At the moment, it would appear that the US Government has been pushing onto US businesses to allow for this and other types of surveillance and snooping. Now businesses will have a clear example of why it is not in their interests to comply so readily. When the international market will no longer trust you or your business model because the US Federal Government is potentially encroaching, corrupting or otherwise tainting their bsuiness image, then there will be lobbying for less government interference with business.
I don't want to see lobbying affect government at all... don't get me wrong. That's where corruption largely begins and lives. But as long as this system is in place, at least now we can see where even those forces can be used against the current trends in government eroding our rights and privacy.
why engage in economic war with France? (Score:3, Funny)
Eh? (Score:4, Informative)
Although I don't doubt that the US government would would snoop on their network too if they could.
Ironic (Score:3, Funny)
How do you trust your computers? (Score:3, Insightful)
Build it yourself. Hardware and software. It kind of explains Bull [bull.com].
It is just realy and excuse (Score:5, Funny)
Crackberries are CANADIAN (Score:3, Informative)
RIM's push-email servers are in CANADA. Your precious "Stop for a hunk of cheese, bottle of wine, and loaf of stale bread on the way home from work (at 3pm)" text messages to one another go through a server in ONTARIO. Look it up on a map. I believe on the French version of the map (as required by French law, no less) it's called ONTARIO.
Linux :) (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously, imagine if Windows Update pushed a reconnaissance-program to computers based on IP address before beginning other types of warfare. And conveniently I would imagine it would be difficult to detect the early stages of such an attack as Windows itself would no doubt have configured all the necessary permissions (firewall,...) while not reporting payload-activity. Eventually someone would notice that physical and audited network traffic don't match and then the jig-would-be-up. That's when you begin your land assault!
Cute weapons (Score:4, Funny)
In this case the French threw away a nice intel weapon in that they could have coordinated disinformation via their blackberries in an attempt to either disseminate fake information to the U.S. intentionally, or to detect the routes taken by info gleaned from the RIM network much as people make extra email addresses to track spammers.
The problem is, the politicians are only human, and these gadgets are just too darned cute to keep your fingers off 'em.
I wonder why RIM wouldn't be willing to offer the French government their own locally hosted servers.
Industrial Espionage in France (Score:4, Interesting)
So when the French are worried about economic espionage, we probably all should be.
Check the charter of the "French CIA" (Score:4, Informative)
The More You Know.
Re:This from.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Failed economic policy? Point the finger! (Score:4, Informative)
Except, of course, the former French President was also a Conservative, and had been in power for the past 15 years. ith disastrous economic results except when his Prime Minister was... a French Socialist.
Except, of course, that the fundamentals of the French economy -- except for unemployment -- are sound, and that the top 40 French companies -- some of which are #1 in the world in their respective fields -- have made so much profit, they have decided to distribute Billions of Euros to their shareholders [lesechos.fr].
And you, Sir, should focus on basic literacy and common sense, instead of indulging in your know-nothing French socialist bashing.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Riiiight (Score:4, Insightful)
Why do the french have to be up to anything? If I get new deadbolts because I see my neighbour burying bodies in the backyard, it doesn't mean I have any bodies in my yard, it just means I don't want to end fertilizing his...
Parent
Re:Fallout from current administration (Score:4, Informative)
Ok, so the only bad thing to have happened in recent years, for which BushCo is not at least partially responsible in your opinion, is the disappearance of a lake in Andes. Thanks! :-)
Read up on Echelon [wikipedia.org]... Hardly a Bush-time invention, but one for exactly the kind of espionage, that the French are concerned about.
Read up on the first President [wikipedia.org] of the France's current republic, and his nationalist (often anti-American [wikipedia.org]) stand. Whether the stand is justified or not, it the philosophy strongly influenced French government since then.
Parent