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Another Look at 1930's Cyclogyro Plane Design

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Mon Oct 29, 2007 01:34 PM
from the crashlo-burno dept.
Robotics Technology
trogador writes to mention that a group of researchers is taking another swing at the idea of a cyclogyro design for a UAV. Even though the cyclogyro design was invented in the 1930's there are no records of a successful flight. "Cyclogyros have the potential to be highly maneuverable flying robots due to their method of operation, making them potentially more suitable for complex tasks than helicopters and other micro air vehicles (MAVs) with less maneuverability. The biggest challenge in designing the cyclogyros is varying the angle of attack of the rotating wings. This ability would enable the plan to change altitude, hover, and fly in reverse. To achieve this quick angle variation, the researchers introduced an eccentric (rotational) point in addition to a rotational point connected to a motor."
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Submission: Cyclogyro Plane '30s Flies For First Time by trogador (1170027)
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  • Like a helicopter? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MobyDisk (75490) on Monday October 29 2007, @01:43PM (#21159803) Homepage

    The biggest challenge in designing the cyclogyros is varying the angle of attack of the rotating wings.
    Don't helicopters have to do this too? I think it is one of the things that makes helicopters tough to manufacture. This would be cool to build, even if it wasn't a great design, just because it looks wacky.

    • Re:Like a helicopter? (Score:5, Informative)

      by 140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) on Monday October 29 2007, @01:55PM (#21160001) Journal
      Yes, helicopters do it too. The advancing blade meets the air at aircraft velocity PLUS velocity due to the spinning of the blades. The retreating blade meets the air at rotational velocity Minus aircraft forward speed. Thus to produce the same lift, it has to have a higher angle of attack. This is done by the cyclic pitch control. Depending on the total lift needed the angle of attack has to be increased for all the blades by equal amount. That is called the total pitch. It does make the hub mechanism of the helicopter blades very complex.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by ericrost (1049312)
        But wouldn't a cyclo-gyro not need the cyclic pitch? the variation is above and below the "wing" not side to side, so no balance issue? Honestly a question based on the 30k ft view.
        • They do have the same issue. In a helocopter, the advancing and retreating blades are on the right and the left. In this it is on the top and bottom. That is all.
          • In a helocopter, the advancing and retreating blades are on the right and the left. In this it is on the top and bottom.

            Yes, but in a helicopter, the left-right asymmetry would flip it out of control if not corrected. This thing's top-bottom asymmetry doesn't need correction, just proper alignment with the center of gravity. If it changed with speed, it might need some correction, but it is nothing as vital as thehelo's left-right asymmetry.
              • The tail rotor is needed to "anchor" the engine. If you clamp the shaft of a motor, the motor would spin in the opposite direction. Infact most ceiling fans have a fixed shaft and the motor spinning in the opposite direction. Most other applications of the electric motor has the motor bolted down and the shaft spinning. In a helicopter, how do you "bolt" down the engine? To the airframe? The whole airframe will spin in the opposite direction. That is why you need a tail rotor to provide a counter moment to
          • Well let's say its the same phenomenon, but not the same issue. A stalling retreating blade in a helicopter causes the aircraft to roll, causing a failure of controlled flight even though the advancing blade is generating enough lift to support the aircraft. In a cyclogyro, it is conceivable that stalling lower blades would not have such a catastrophic effect, since the advancing blades on both sides of the aircraft are generating plenty of lift.

            Or the whole thing might shake itself apart like a piece of

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by know2much (37539)
      Drag = 3 wings
      Lift = 1 wing
      Transmission Mechanism = Very Heavy
      Support Structure = Very Very Heavy
      Pressure Center (Sustentation)= Shifts
      Vibration = More than a helicopter

      Nice Try!!!

  • But will it cut my lawn? Without supervision? Can I set it to keep the neighbours dog out? Lasers? Can it have lasers? Lasers would be nice.

    • Re:This is all very nice (Score:4, Funny)

      by JK_the_Slacker (1175625) on Monday October 29 2007, @01:46PM (#21159849) Homepage

      Lasers? Can it have lasers? Lasers would be nice.

      You must be new here. Lasers go on SHARKS. Robots with lasers are SO 1980s.

      • My nephew has this really cool toy, kind of like legos, only with more definition (i.e., less block/toy like, more realisitic). Also, t attachable things com in parts, similar to how you install them. So you get the bottom of a boat, the top of a boat, a cabin, a back deck, a gun, a mast, etc.

        One of the pieces it comes with is a shark, and it has a 'connector' hole in the shark's head. It is designed to fit a 'harpoon' type attachment, so you can 'capture' him.

        But the connector is the same standard hol

    • But will it cut my lawn?
      It would have to fly upside down to do that; be patient.
  • Interesting concept. I'm wondering if they can get past the weight that the machine's complexity will add. And there's also the safety aspects when something this complicated breaks down in mid-air. Course, who cares about a robot, but this thing will never get man-rated.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Punko (784684)

      And there's also the safety aspects when something this complicated breaks down in mid-air...but this thing will never get man-rated.


      Complicated and heavier than air like a helicopter?

    • Re:Goldberg to the Rescue... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Rorschach1 (174480) on Monday October 29 2007, @01:52PM (#21159955) Homepage
      Yeah, as I recall, one of the drawbacks of this design is that it can't glide like a plane or autorotate like a helicopter. If it loses power, it's coming DOWN. For a UAV that's not a big problem, I suppose.. though I wouldn't want to be underneath it.

      For that matter, a large-scale model would be a little scary to be around during takeoff and landing. I've done hover loads on a Huey (climbing in while it's hovering about 3 feet off the ground) and it still feels like the rotor's about to take your head off. Not to mention how it blows dust and gravel everywhere. This thing would be like a whirling death machine.

      Still, for a small, agile robotic observation platform, I can see where it'd be useful. But with several decades of experience with helicopters behind us, I doubt it's going to happen unless there are some VERY compelling performance differences.
    • Yeah, good thing those helicopters never got "man-rated"...that would be a disaster!

      "man-rated"...i think I'm going to start using that in totally in-applicable situations:

      Guy: "Holy shit Ryan, this server weighs like 300 lbs!"
      Me: "Yeah, dude this thing is fucking MAN-RATED!"
  • Can Cyclogyros autorotate [wikipedia.org] like helicopters? I suspect that they can. I have seen plans for model "airplanes" that are spinning cylinders of airfoils. This would make them a lot safer. (Or give an option for a safe recovery mode of a robot in case of engine failure.)

    Lots of Google Entries [google.com] but no Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]

    • Or give an option for a safe recovery mode of a robot in case of engine failure.
      Parachutes and balloons, similar to what the Martian lander had, would be pretty good for aiding in a safe recovery.
      • That would be lots of additional weight. Also, if Cyclogyros can hover or fly at very low speed, this wouldn't be an option. In many cases, there wouldn't be enough time for the chutes to open. You'd want some way of utilizing the rotational energy already stored in the rotors. Throwing that away is wasting a valuable resource in an emergency.
        • I don't see why this wouldn't be a candidate for something similar, assuming autorotation isn't an option. Basically, there's a small rocket (or charge, I don't remember which--it's been a while since I was interested in the ultralight scene) that violently extracts the chute from the container and makes it possible for the chute to open even at very low speed/altitude.

          They can't be that much additional weight if they're being installed in what are essentially hang gliders.
        • If you have something light and unmanned flying low, I would think it more effective to deploy airbags than parachutes...or just an explosive charge, since you would probably rather prevent than assist recovery on reconnaissance missions.
    • I think we could design a mechanism to lock the rotation out and lock the foils at specific angle of attack to make the whole contraption glide.
      • If Cyclogyros can hover or fly at very low speed, this definitely isn't an option. You wouldn't have enough forward velocity to generate lift. At low altitudes, this could easily be disastrous. You'd want some way of utilizing the rotational energy already stored in the rotors. Throwing that away is wasting a valuable resource in an emergency.

  • Same fuel consumption as helicopters (Score:3, Informative)

    by 140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) on Monday October 29 2007, @01:46PM (#21159869) Journal
    In a fixed wing aircraft the engines develop enough thrust to overcome the drag. Typical Lift to drag ratio is between 10 and 12 for commercial jets. Some sail planes and gliders have achieved L/D ratio of 30 and 40. In any hovering aircraft, be it helicopter or vectored thrust machines like the Harrier, or the stupid plane V22, the engines must develop enough thrust to overcome the weight. (Weight = Lift). Thus they develop between 10 and 12 time more thrust and thus they consume that much more fuel. That can not be avoided.

    Changing the angle of attack of each foil in the wing for this aircraft is no doubt complex, but even helicopters have this quite complex cyclic pitch/total pitch changing mechanisms. Given the advancement in materials and electrical actuators, it is possible that the time has come for a horizontal axis rotating wing aircraft.

    May be this craft will transition from hover to flight with locked wings more easily and more stably than that boondongle from Fort Worth, V22 Osprey. Thus for the long haul you get the speed and efficiency of the fixed wing aircraft. But you get hover ability too. The price you pay is to haul a larger powerplant all the while. But still it might beat V22.

    • Re:Same fuel consumption as helicopters (Score:4, Funny)

      by pittance (78536) on Monday October 29 2007, @01:58PM (#21160055) Homepage
      Commercial jets are at lift/drag of around 18-20 now
      As an engineer working with fixed wings it is my firm belief that helicopters fly because they are so ugly that the ground repels them - on that basis this thing is getting to the moon.
    • ... or the stupid plane V22, ... that boondongle from Fort Worth, V22 Osprey.

      Why the animosity against the V22? [wikipedia.org] Is it Bell's execution of the design, or the design itself?

      Granted, making the V22's rotor large enough to support hovering leads to a vastly over sized propeller in forward flight. Other than that, it sure seems to me, executed properly, a tilt-rotor truly gives you the best of both worlds. A VTOL aircraft [wikipedia.org] with the speed of a fixed wing has long been a dream of aviation, especially the m
      • The hatred for the v-22 isn't from the design, it is from the number of serious flaws which remained in the final project, that would have sent it back to the drawing board if there hadn't been so many pork-barrel contracts on the line. Basically, its current incarnation lacks both the defensive survivability (autorotate on failure) and offensive armament of helicopters (all it has is a small machine gun, pointing backwards, that you have to OPEN THE DOOR to fire), trading both for a slightly higher top spe

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Rakishi (759894)

          Basically, its current incarnation lacks both the defensive survivability (autorotate on failure)

          Can't it glide, somewhat, like an airplane?

          offensive armament of helicopters (all it has is a small machine gun, pointing backwards, that you have to OPEN THE DOOR to fire),

          Yeah because the average CH-47 Chinook or C-130 Hercules are such massive gun ships, always used to shoot at the enemy. God forbid someone just wanted to move cargo or people with a helicopter or airplane. If it doesn't have enough firepower to level a small town it's useless period.

          The current V-22 is a cargo plane more or less, it's designed to quickly and efficiently drop people or cargo where needed. It's not supposed to stay around and shoot at the enemy, mo

  • ... here's a link to another page describing Cyclogyros and how they (should) work.
    Best of all, it has pictures! ;)
  • The page linked in the summary is generating a 403 error.

    The front page of the main website seems ok.

    The page is returning an error, and this:-
    "This Website Is Powered by Doteasy.com $0 Web Hosting"

    I guess you get what you pay for.

  • A different link with Video! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Xoltri (1052470) on Monday October 29 2007, @01:58PM (#21160067)
    http://serve.me.nus.edu.sg/cyclocopter/ [nus.edu.sg]

  • Flying through its own downwash = bad. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by goodmanj (234846) on Monday October 29 2007, @02:21PM (#21160373)
    So one of the reasons they try to keep airplanes separated in the sky is because of the downward flow of air they generate behind them. For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction: if the air is lifting the plane, the plane must push the air down. If one plane flies too close to another, the downwash can cause the trailing plane to crash.

    The wings of this thing generate a downwash at the top of the "paddle wheel" which flows down and strikes the wing at the bottom of the paddle wheel. Not one website discussing these planes mentions this. Maintaining control and lift in this situation sounds ... challenging.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by goodmanj (234846)
        I hate to pull rank here, but I have a bachelor's in physics and a PhD in climate physics, where I specialized in fluid mechanics. I'm not an aeronautical engineer, but I *have* heard of the Bernoulli effect before.

        The bernoulli effect has a bit to do with explaining *how* the wing and air push on each other, but you can understand how a plane works without any fluid mechanics at all. Gravity is pulling the plane down. There must be a counteracting force holding it up. The air exerts this force on the w

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by DougWebb (178910)

            If a symmetrical object is moved through the air, there will be equal displacement on each side, and no lift will be generated. A wing is asymmetric, the air traveling underneath experiences little disturbance, the air displaced around the top becomes more spread out, spreading out a gas decreases the temperature and pressure, the differential pressure between lesser displaced air beneath the wing and the more displaced air above the wing generates lift. Again, the air beneath the wing tries to fill the voi

  • Burns: Yes, I'd like to send this letter to the Prussian consulate in Siam by aeromail. Am I too late for the 4:30 autogyro?
    Squeaky Voiced Teen: Uh, I better look in the manual.
    Burns: Ignorance!

    ... later ...

    Squeaky Voiced Teen: This book must be out of date: I don't see "Prussia", "Siam", or "autogyro".
    Burns: Well, keep looking!

  • It looks like it's very prone to cut things into small pieces - like people's heads.

    Too bad that the site referred to in the post seems to be slashdotted. Interesting thing is that the hosting service says: "Unlimited Web Hosting", but obviously it isn't. - But that is probably normal.

  • If by micro air vehicle they mean like the man-portable UAV's and smaller, why don't they experiment with ornithopter designs like hummingbirds and dragonflies? As I understand it, the flight mechanics for those animals really don't scale up well for larger vehicles, explaining why we don't see 747's with dragonfly wings, but so long as the vehicle is still within the same relative size as those animals, then the only problem is power supply density.

    The quad-rotor UAV designs appear to have an excellent mix

  • Let's See Here... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Nom du Keyboard (633989) on Monday October 29 2007, @02:46PM (#21160717)
    Let's see here:

    The design is seventy years old.
    It has never successfully flown during all that time.
    LET'S SPEND MONEY ON IT NOW!

  • There are cyclogyro like propellors used on a number of ships. The VSP [voithturbo.com] is used most prominently these days on a couple of tugboats in Prince William Sound up in Alaska.

    The Flash animation at the bottom of the page linked as "Open iVSP - Interactive VSP Program" is truly amazing, and gives you a great intuitive understanding of how these machines work.

    Thad Beier
  • So why not use an auto gyro ala James Bond.

    Of course everybody knows the best UAVs look like spitfires. I'd sign up for a sortie or two, hope and glory blaring in the headphones, stiff upper lip, handle bar mustache, ridiculously fake old etonian accent etc etc. Although I would draw the line at the very spiffy Douglas Bader replacement legs.
    • Cyclogyro is just his lame American name. When the character was originated in Japan in 1981 Cyclogyro's name was Gyro Robo.
    • Gyroplanes use unpowered rotors that rotate horizontally for lift. The cyclogyro of this article uses horizontally mounted, powered wings rotating vertically for lift. It's a different beast.

      Nice video, though :)

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by querist (97166)
      There is a difference between the cyclogyro and the autogyro (gyroplane). The cyclogyro uses powered rotating wings to generate the lift. The engine actively turnes those rotating wings, which rotate along the sides of the aircraft.

      An autogyro, however, uses a propeller, just like a fixed-winged prop-driven aircraft, to generate thrust. The rotary wings are on the top of the craft and are _not_ driven by the engine. They are in "autorotation", which means they rotate because of the other stuff going on arou

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