Microsoft Upgrades Vista Kernel in SP1

KrispySausage writes "One of the big features discussed in early speculation of Windows Vista SP1 was the kernel upgrade, which was supposed to bring the operating system into line with the Longhorn kernel used in Windows Server 2008. With Vista SP1 going RTM, there hasn't been so much as a peep from Microsoft about the mooted kernel update. Has it happened? Well the answer is yes it has. Presumably the main reason for Microsoft's silence on the subject is that as they're keen to promote the improvements and enhancements to Vista, rather than placing emphasis on a kernel upgrade, which some people might see as a risk of newly-introduced instability."

confused

[farkus888 (1103903)]

I thought "improvements and enhancements" was MS marketing speak for "newly-introduced instability".

Re:confused

[hazem (472289)]

I've always figured that the period after they declare they'll no longer support the product is that sweet spot when it will finally function predictably.

Re:confused

[wile_e_wonka (934864)]

It's interesting you say that--I just installed the release candidate for SP3 on my XP VM, and I'll tell you--it made a huge difference to the performance of XP. It now functions just fine with the meager amount of RAM I allotted to it, and it functions well with Office 2007 (i.e., it doesn't take forever to open or run slow) despite, once again, the meager amount of RAM I allow it to use.

And, of course, as you noted, XP is losing support next year--just as it's running better than ever!

Re:confused

[Joe U (443617)]

And, of course, as you noted, XP is losing support next year--just as it's running better than ever!

No, it's not. Microsoft supports all operating systems for 2 years past the last service pack.

http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3223 [microsoft.com]

Re:confused

[Joe U (443617)]

Ok, I don't like replying to myself, but I didn't do enough research.

When a new service pack is released, Microsoft will provide either 12 or 24 months of support for the previous service pack
When support for a product ends, support of the service packs for that product will also end. The product's support lifecycle supersedes the service pack support policy

Windows has a 24 month policy

Mainstream support for Windows XP Pro ends 4/14/2009, which means they're not going to sell it or add new features to the core OS.

Extended support for Windows XP Pro ends 4/8/2014, which means no new updates at all past that point.

Re:confused

[Sancho (17056)]

The product lines (not from the beginning, obviously):

Windows 3.1 -> Windows 95 -> Windows 98 -> Windows ME -> Windows XP
Windows NT 3.51 -> Windows NT 4.0 -> Windows 2000 -> Windows XP

Although Windows 2000 was really quite usable for most home users (compared to NT4, especially), it was not considered a home-user OS. That niche was filled by Windows ME. The OSs were even released within the same year (about 6 months apart in 2000, if I remember correctly.) XP came just a year later.

Re:

[afidel (530433)]

Well, Windows 2000 is currently in extended support which means technically only security related patches are supposed to be released for it, and that stops Jan 2010 I believe. This was a big problem for many companies as MS refused to issue a standard patch for the DST updates for Windows 2000. They had a convoluted manual/policy based process which didn't allow for easy confirmation that systems were updated. XP will enter this same quasi-supported phase in August of next year.

Re:confused

[KillerBob (217953)]

What do you mean, "as a media center"? Can you not use Debian/Ubuntu or something?

No. I can't.

I'm talking about as an HTPC, and there's hardware in my system that simply doesn't work with Linux. There are absolutely no drivers for NEC-based TV tuner cards, such as my AverMedia M780. It's a gorgeous card... generates *much* less heat than a similar Hauppauge card does *especially when viewing 1080i HDTV*, better picture, and better ATSC reception than anything else I've tried. Absolutely the best TV tuner card I've found. But it's simply not supported by Linux. And switching to Hauppauge or something else isn't an option, because this is a passively cooled silent PC, and having a tuner card with a block temperature 30'C hotter than the M780 is out of the question.

There *are* Linux-based HTPC options. MythTV, for example. But the lack of support for some of the hardware I have in my system is a deal-breaker. What's the point of having a PVR/HTPC that doesn't have a working TV tuner?

So my HTPC/Media Center runs on Vista. Because in that respect, Vista is better than XP: the interface is better laid out and more intuitive. But in my experience, that's the only way in which it's better.

consumer vs. geek

[eck011219 (851729)]

Not to mention that almost everything they've done to promote Vista has been aimed at the end-user, the joe-blow consumer. That user has no idea what the kernel is or why they should care -- it's just geeky mumbo-jumbo that would scare their target Vista audience.

Re:

[farkus888 (1103903)]

now that I have my joke out of the way, thats right mods it was a joke not a trolling attempt. I really think you are probably right about their motive.

Re:

[daem0n1x (748565)]

There's an answer to that. Just promote the word "kernel" until it sounds cool.

"Hey, dude. I just bought a new PC with a fuckin' great kernel, like 100.000 Gigasomething, and all. Yeah, Microsoft rocks!"

Anecdote:
Valves (or tubes) are cool in the music equipment scene, forget that 90% of the buyers have no idea what a valve is, or what's for. In a subway station near me there used to be a shitty little instrument store. One of the items in exhibition was a lousy solid-state guitar amplifier with a

Re:consumer vs. geek

[swordgeek (112599)]

Honestly, the user SHOULDN'T care!

Back in 'the day', Bill Joy said "Operating systems are like underwear - Nobody really wants to look at them." This was true until Linux started getting attention, and MS turned their efforts to becoming a 10-ton monster by selling OSes. Since then, the word OS has morphed into meaning a feature-rich (feature-laden?) bundles of applications along with the software infrastructure required to run them. (Whereas formally the OS is really just the infrastructure itself.)

Now we're talking about kernels. NOBODY other than developers and support folks should need to care about their kernel. In fact, most people don't know what a kernel actually is, and that's OK. In fact, it's even good--it's pointless knowledge for end users.

I'm not one to support MS, but not blathering on about the kernel in end-user release notes is the right thing to do.

Risky Business

[PrescriptionWarning (932687)]

"which some people might see as a risk of newly-introduced instability."

now who would think that? Honestly now, lets see some hands. You in the back, PUT YOUR DAMN HANDS IN THE AIR!

Re:Risky Business

[spun (1352)]

"which some people might see as a risk of newly-introduced instability."

now who would think that? Honestly now, lets see some hands. You in the back, PUT YOUR DAMN HANDS IN THE AIR!

LOOKOUT! The guy in the back has a CHAIR! It's Ballmer, everybody DUCK!

Risk...

[Khyber (864651)]

When adding ANY code, there is risk of security vulnerabilities and potential exploits. Sadly, most people seem to not know this.

What?!

[ledow (319597)]

Seriously, you're telling me that a version number jump in the kernel during a Service Pack is somehow news? And not only that but *unconfirmed* reports of that. *With screenshots*. Wow.

And what does it do. What does the new 0.0.1 add to Windows? Dunno. There isn't a word about it in the article, just some screenshots of version numbers.

How the bloody hell does this make the front page?

Re:

[Dada (31909)]

What I find most surprising is that Slashdot's headline is quite tame compared to the source "article". Usually it's the opposite.

I've been out of the loop for a while... What's the geek news site that has replaced Slashdot? There must be one... Of course that's a rethorical question: anybody who found it would be there and would've stopped reading /. altogether.

Re:

[SleeknStealthy (746853)]

I agree that the article is weak, but I downloaded the leaked rtm and installed it this past Saturday on my laptop. I had originally moved back to xp on the laptop because of the obvious performance problems with vista. However, sp1 makes a massive difference on a few different levels:
1. suspend / resume
2. memory consumption
3. Finally fixes the horrendous performance when copying files
4. Network performance is excellent even when listening to music.

Overall on a laptop that is not my primary computer I am

Re:

[Jugalator (259273)]

Here's the deal, although in some sort of "prerelease" form:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/9/c/5/9c5b2167-8017-4bae-9fde-d599bac8184a/kernel-en.doc [microsoft.com]

Oops, sorry, that isn't quite it, it's for the SP1-less Vista and Server Longhorn. Well, some parts of it may apply, because Vista SP1 *is* largely the "Windows Server Longhorn" kernel, now named Windows Server 2008.

Here's something that should be a bit more accurate:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/f/4/a/f4a35b2b-2f62-4104-a3e6-5f7bc1318e9f/Notable%20changes%20in%20Windows%20Vista%20SP1.pdf [microsoft.com]

However, it again doesn't separate the changes in the kernel from the rest, but to a reasonably experienced pro

The Kernel can't be any better...

[the_skywise (189793)]

They didn't put any electrolytes in it...

Re:

[misleb (129952)]

They didn't put any electrolytes in it...

Please. SP1 has more electrolytes than your body has room for. It'll run so fast they'll think your computer is from Kenya!

I was kind of hoping to see a performance review..

[ip_freely_2000 (577249)]

..of SP1 RTM, kind of like what the exo performance/xpnet people did late last year.

I am one of the many who switched back to XP..performance on my tablet stunk with Vista. However, I did like some of the ease-of-use mobility features, but it wasn't worth the grief of performance and drivers.

I would like to run Vista....I just need a compelling reason to do so.

Re:I was kind of hoping to see a performance revie

[afedaken (263115)]

Finally, another tablet user!

I occasionally game on my unit, so now I'm running an XP/Vista dual-boot, but msot of my work time is in Vista these days. For my unit, it doesn't seem to be appreciably slower than XP was, (but to be fair, I'm not running Aero Glass since the integrated graphics don't support it) and some of the features work noticeably better.

For me specifically:
- Handwriting Recognition is improved. (In both English, and Japanese.)
- Searching was greatly improved.
- Hibernation to file now restores properly every time.

System specs:
Toshiba R15-s822
1.6GHz Pentium M
160GB HD
2GB RAM
Vista Ultimate.

Would you tell me a bit more about your Vista experience? Specifically, was it the over-all experience that sent you running back to XP, or was it the tablet specific features?

I dont get it

[BlowHole666 (1152399)]

I do not get it. On my Suse box I see Linux kernel updates all the time. So Microsoft Updated the kernel to match 2008. How do we not know the only difference between the two kernels was 10 lines of code or something? So the version/build number changed. We do not know what changed. Can a normal user tell exactly what the differences were between Windows 2000 and XP (NOTICE I SAID NORMAL USER!!!) no they can not. I do not think normal people (the majority of Microsoft's user base) will know the difference. Maybe someone working for an anti virus company will notice or maybe a slashdot reader but not the majority of the users. Honestly I think this is just more slashdot fud on the front page to bash Microsoft for doing something that Linux does every few months.

Re:I dont get it

[operagost (62405)]

Can a normal user tell exactly what the differences were between Windows 2000 and XP (NOTICE I SAID NORMAL USER!!!) no they can not.

Do "normal" users play games, have wireless networking, use webcams, unzip files, or switch between users?

Re:

[iONiUM (530420)]

Slashdot isn't for "normal people", thus this is news for "nerds". I think you mistyped fox.com if you were expecting news for "normals".

Or maybe because it doesn't matter much?

[Kjella (173770)]

It's long since I got excited about a Linux kernel update. Since I upgrade the kernel along with everything else perhaps it's hard to say, but on the plain non-virtualized desktop running conventional applications there aren't any revolutions going on. There's new drivers but in theory every USB device is already supported by Linux, it's the userland bits that are missing. Don't get me wrong I'm sure there's a lot of important developments going on, I just don't see it affecting me. Or if it does, it's some

Re:

[misleb (129952)]

I know Linux kernel devs have been switching up the schedulers lately. Well, last year or so. You could conceivably notice that and even get excited about it depending on how it helps multimedia and such. For any other OS, changing the process scheduler and pager would be a pretty big deal.

Of course, it *is* just the kernel. There is so much more to a modern OS that it is hard to stay focused on the kernel unless you're a developer.

-matthew

0.0001? Are you kidding?

[donutello (88309)]

That's how much you rev the version number by when all you are doing is fixing bugs that only required very minor code change.

That's just dumb

[Just Some Guy (3352)]

In other news, Linux v2.6.19.3 was released on February 5, 2007 (6 days after Vista). There have been 75 new kernel releases since then. Source: going to ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/ [kernel.org] and counting ChangeLogs since then.

I'm not sure why this is news.

Re:

[Just Some Guy (3352)]

Look out --> person posts a truth about Linux vs. Windows and gets modded down.

What kind of frustrates me there is that I wasn't saying anything bad about Linux. I only wanted to point out that the Ubuntu desktop I'm using right now gets kernel updates from time to time, and I can't see why that's good for me but bad for Windows users. Maybe I wasn't overly critical enough of Microsoft to satisfy the mod?

Honestly, this really is stupid. There are plenty of legitimate things to hold against Microsoft. Periodically releasing kernel updates isn't one of them. I mean, imagine the

Standardize code base

[athloi (1075845)]

From the article:

So if you look at it one way, the Windows Vista "kernel upgrade" isn't a fundamental update, but rather, an alignment of the two operating systems.

This is a smart move. It's easier to develop one kernel than two, so standardizing the two made sense. They've had more time to beat on Server 2008 and test it, and are incorporating those changes.

The end user won't see this, but the end user doesn't care. Their flashy GUI and UAC (snicker) will run faster as a result.

If Vista SP1 is based on 2008 Server

[Orion Blastar (457579)]

are the 2008 Server changes made to address the incompatibility issues Vista had with older software? If they are, then great.

What I had originally heard was that Windows 2008 Server and Vista SP1 were going to be based on XP code for compatibility issues in order to make the OS more stable and more compatible. I am not sure how much XP code was used on the new kernel.

Since I support many friends and family members who have Vista machines, I am thinking of buying a new PC with Vista preinstalled on it, and hopefully SP1 to see if it fixes the problems that the original Vista had. As I recall the original XP also had instability issues and compatibility issues and XP SP1 fixed those, and then XP SP2 made even more improvements and made XP more stable and more compatible.

What I hope is that Vista SP1 ends up being what the original Vista had promised. The only thing is the hardware requirements for Vista are 3 times or more the requirements that XP had. So of course upgrading an XP machine to Vista is going to run it slower. Vista on a newer machine made in 2007/2008 should run a lot better than Vista on a 2004/2005/2006 machine.

If all else fails, I hope that ReactOS [reactos.org] is developed into a stable build in 2008/2009 some time. People need to keep an eye on that open sourced OS. Once it goes into beta testing, it is in alpha right now, but 0.4 or 0.5 will enter Beta testing and be good enough to use as an alternative to Windows.

Keep in mind that Windows 2008 Server is based on Windows 2003 Server, which was based on Windows XP. Windows Vista was not based on Windows XP, but was a rewrite attempt. Vista and Longhorn are actually too different projects, Vista was a rewrite of Windows, while Longhorn was based on Windows XP. At least that is what I heard.

You have to wonder

[bogie (31020)]

If that was a good idea. Microsoft spent so much time replacing things that worked with XP, for example Networking, that on Vista they were not mature at launch. I'm sure the new kernel is actually a nice piece of work, but IMHO they should wait until Windows Server 2008 SP1 then replace the kernel on Vista with one that is leaner and proven to be stable.

You know it's not that we don't like new features and upgrades, it's just that by 2007-2008 we expected Microsoft to be better at designing OSs. Should they get an automatic pass with every OS release just because "hey, you know they will get it right by SP2". I say phooey to that. Demand more.

Service Pack 1

[kellyb9 (954229)]

Microsoft Windows Vista SP1:
Codenamed: XP

Kernel Panic?

[ruiner13 (527499)]

Maybe they didn't tell anyone because they were afraid that people would start to kernel panic about it.

I'll be hiding now.

How about speed?

[miffo.swe (547642)]

The thing that intrigues me is how they are going to fix the speed/memory issues without ripping DRM out. I have a hard time seeng other than smaller improvements in isolated areas as to Vistas performance less they rip/replace large parts of it. A new thorough benchmark comparing XP SP2 vs Vista SP1 would be very interesting. Does it still demand 2 GB to run smoothly under moderate load? Had one for testing on my desk a while ago (im a sysadmin) and frankly it was a real dog.

Dont get me started at audio issues in most games and audio applications, EAX? forgedaboutit!

Re:

[cbart387 (1192883)]

In case you haven't noticed ... Vista is a new OS and _not_ an incremental update of XP.

The overall design of it may be good but of course there is going to be bugs at this point in the game. It seems like everyone keeps forgetting how complicated an OS is.

Re:The real reason why SP1 is not ready

[plague3106 (71849)]

Maybe you should, you know, keep up. Network and sound drivers are both now userland. Network purposefully yields to the sound driver when its playing sound so you don't get choppy sound. There's a bug where it yields too much. And only if you're copying files on a LAN, IIRC. It was missed because they didn't do testing on a gbit network card.

This has been known almost since Vista's release... where have you been?

Re:The real reason why SP1 is not ready

[NatasRevol (731260)]

"...where have you been?"

Waiting for his download to finish...

Re:

[ratboy666 (104074)]

Quote
"they" didn't do testing on a gbit network card.

And, this means that *I* am supposed to? The reason I spend money on an OS is to assure that it has been tested; if I do the testing there are plenty of no-cost alternatives.

Quote

Network and sound drivers now userland.

Is this good? Back to the gbit network, that would be 100mbytes/second of data. Passed through kernel (i/o priviledged) layers

"Either"???

[Moryath (553296)]

This is Micro$oft we're talking about. They fixed 20 exploitable things and put in 30 more exploitable things, but will refuse to admit the 30 in the name of "security through obscurity."

Re:What would be the difference?

[cnettel (836611)]

This is in the area of Really Bad Analogies, but bear with me anyway: Windows 2003 was the followup to XP. Quite a few users who got their hands (ahem...) on Windows 2003 think that it is a very solid workstation OS, handling a few situations better than XP. If blatantly ignoring the lack of drivers, XP64 (which is derived from the 2003 codebase) is also solid. More polish went into handling high-load cases and simple bugfixing, things that were never justified to backport to XP. (SP2 carried over some things and added a few, so until Windows 2003 SP1 was released, there were two clear forks again with non-overlapping features.)

What does this mean for Vista SP1? Well, there should be very little reason to use Windows 2008 as a desktop OS. One could imagine that some geek/pro user workloads (network/disk I/O, anyone?) might be improved. On the other hand, these changes should already be in the SP release candidates, and the reviews of those haven't shown any big changes. A practical concern would be that the platforms should be similar from now on, like in the W2K days. I guess that will make at least some hardware vendor developers happy. Maybe this will also mean that additional hotfixes more acutely needed for server scenarios will trickle down to Vista.

Re:Bias

[misleb (129952)]

As much as I hate (detest, revile) to admit that a good Vista is good for everyone in someways (slower viruses, etc.), ... oh wait. I can't get over hoping Vista dies a horrible flaming death. I don't mean to flame/troll... I know I'm biased.

I am similarly conflicted. On one hand I want the spectacle. On the other I know that I'm just going to have to support it over the phone for my parents.

And let me just head off anyone who is going to suggest "install Linux for them" or "get them to buy a mac..." I will say that I live thousands of miles away from them and, quite frankly, they're getting older and the change would probably be more trouble than it is worth.

-matthew

Re:

[daem0n1x (748565)]

My dad is very conservative. I went to the store to help him buy a new laptop and he didn't follow my suggestion of buying a Mac. I almost convinced him of letting me install Linux but I needed some time and he was in a a hurry to take the laptop home, to the country.

Anyway, he hated Vista so much that he asked me to set it to the Windows 2000 look and feel. Even so, he has a fit every time one of those stupid popups comes up with some badly translated bullshit that he can't understand. I can't wait to

Re:

[dn15 (735502)]

What you consider to be easy depends somewhat on your learning style, but even more so on whether you learned the concepts or simply memorized some steps to do the task at hand. People who consider it difficult to switch between operating systems are people who have not learned how to use *computers*. They are people who know how to get around the OS they're used to by rote memorization.

No, I'm not saying your mom is dumb because she couldn't figure out Macs. But rather you can't rightly say Macs are confus

Re:

[misleb (129952)]

That's one of the arguments *for* installing Linux. Very easy to support remotely. Just whack Ubuntu on, and tell them it's Windows Vista or something.

They're old, not stupid. Besides, supporting Linux isn't the issue. Just getting them to the point where supporting it is the only issue is the issue. My dad runs so much Windows-only crap that it isn't even funny. He's uses the computer for much more than web browsing and email.

OS X would be my first choice for them.

-matthew

Re:good for vista or bad for 2008 server?

[kusanagi374 (776658)]

What the hell are you talking about? Trollish troll is trollish eh?

Anyway, I'll bite. Windows Server 2008, like any decent server should have, is based on user permissions and if your user can't perform a given task, you can escalate to admin rights (OMG JUST LIEK SU!!) and do your thing. And obviously there won't be the same issues as on Vista because it won't be used as a desktop. At least it shouldn't be.

And the fact it's not a desktop means that the HD videos thing doesn't even matter.

Re:FAIL

[domatic (1128127)]

First of all, I don't want to use Vista. I now run a half crippled XP because HP refuse point blank to supply XP drivers for this model.

This doesn't necessarily mean that the drivers don't exist. They'll be harder to find though. Here's what you do:

1. Go to Control Panel -> System
2. Click on the Hardware tab
3. Click the Device Manager button
4. For each device with a Red X or Yellow !
        a. Right Click and get Properties
        b. Click the Details tab
        c. Select "Matching Device ID" from the dropdown.

5. Shake Google for those Strings. Sometimes you'll hit paydirt just searching for the part before the ampersand.

You can also use tools like AIDA32 and Unknown Device Identifier to identify the hardware. Once you've identified your hardware, you'll probably do OK with the actual manufacturer's reference drivers. While it's possible that a vendor like HP is using slightly bastardized versions of standard chipsets that thus require custom drivers, that usually isn't the case. You may even be able to get the drivers from HP themselves if there are similar models that were supplied with XP.

"Complete rewrite" a myth

[SEMW (967629)]

Even though there was a complete rewrite...

No, there wasn't. The only person who has ever claimed that Vista is a complete rewrite was Twitter. The Vista kernel is just a modified and updated Server 2003 kernel (not, of course, that that's a bad thing). There was originally talk of larger low-level changes, but they were scrapped back in 2004.