Hotmail Doesn't Work With Linux Firefox 2.0

An anonymous reader tips a column up at freesoftwaremagazine.com in which the writer discovers that the latest UI enhancements that Hotmail has recently introduced don't work with Firefox 2.0 under Linux. The writer concludes that the webmail interface has been artificially limited by basic user-agent sniffing. The solution is simple enough — spoofing the User Agent that Firefox reports.

Kind of Misleading

[eldavojohn (898314)]

Hotmail Doesn't Work With Linux Firefox 2.0

That's a bit misleading. I used Hotmail on my Linux box last night. It was the regular web interface & worked fine.

So there must be some new enhancements that maybe only subscribers get to use? Or perhaps these are more office tools that don't work in Firefox. Ok, well, before I go on, I wish someone somewhere would have pointed out that the Google apps are both free and work in Firefox. So that's sounding more and more like an easy choice/solution for Mitch Meyran's problems.

I would posit, however, that since Google's apps are probably for the most part built using GWT I'd bet that Microsoft's equivalent will be based on Silverlight. I have no idea since I have not used this but I do know that Firefox's Silverlight plugin is in beta [mozillalinks.org]. What does surprise me is that my company allows me to use Outlook Web Interface which 1) works in Linux & 2) works in Firefox 2.0. Most surprisingly it's quite slick!

So if I may state my opinion, you're probably suffering from Microsoft's attempt to assert its dominance by forcing you to use Explorer in Windows. So if they are forcing you into this ultimatum, you can either respond by bending to their will and falling into their Monopolistic strong arm practices or you can look for another solution that meets your needs. It would be an easy choice for me but you're the consumer with the money, it's your choice.

Re:

[ewoods (108845)]

I have problems with hotmail on windows with FF2. When the enhanced page first loads, it loops in a javascript and hangs the browser. This happens almost every time. And because the FF people apparently don't know how to show the "stop script" dialog and actually pause the script so I can click the button, it usually takes me several minutes to get into my hotmail with continuous clicking of the "stop script" button. It's made hotmail unusable, so I switched to yahoo... And not microsoft has the opport

Opera won a lawsuit about this kind of thing

[by Anonymous Coward]

Remember when MS skewed pages being viewed by Opera, but if you told Opera to identify as IE, they'd work just fine? Opera won their lawsuit against MS for that. Perhaps another lawsuit should be in the works.

Re:

[RailGunner (554645)]

Opera also released a highly entertaining "Swedish Chef" version of Opera that would seriously screw up the msn.com homepage and intentionally insert "bork bork bork" on the page.

More on the Opera version... [wikipedia.org]

Re:

[gid (5195)]

Kinda like this? http://www.google.com/intl/xx-bork/ [google.com]

Yahoo

[jefu (53450)]

Makes you wonder what will happen if Microsoft acquires Yahoo.

Re:Kind of Misleading

[kripkenstein (913150)]

This is a non-story [...] Hotmail works fine from Linux + FireFox - I too tried it last night. It's got some deprecated functionality, but that's pretty much par for the course with Microsoft-oriented webapps under Linux.

Um, what? So you're saying that there is nothing wrong with Microsoft serving limited functionality to Linux users, "that's just how it is"?

This sort of thing is totally unacceptable. First, it might even be illegal as abuse of Microsoft's monopoly (yes, Hotmail 'works' on Linux, but it works better under Microsoft's OS). Second, there is no excuse for this. Last I checked, Gmail and Yahoo mail work perfectly fine, with all functionality, on Windows, OS X and Linux. As Microsoft has more money than both of these rivals, plainly it could support Firefox under Linux. But it prefers to leverage synergy with Windows (I almost choked on the marketspeak there, but you get what I mean).

So no, that this is 'par for the course' with Microsoft does not mean it is ok, and certainly does not mean it is not worthy of a Slashdot story. It is 100% worthy, word needs to get out about this sort of thing.

Re:

[revlayle (964221)]

NO ONE is saying that this is ok. Just saying that it is "non news" and IS "par for the course". Just because something isn't right, doesn't really make it news-worthy. Also, the artcle is a wee bit of FUD and wee bit of unprofessionalism. While the article write may be correct, they way it is presented should not even be condoned. Crap reporting... crap writing [insert slashdot stories joke here].

Re:

[kripkenstein (913150)]

yes, Hotmail 'works' on Linux, but it works better under Microsoft's OS

So does the Department of Justice need to declare Apple a monopoly within the online music and entertainment market in order for this same problem to apply to iTunes and QuickTime, both of which "work" on Windows, but work better on Mac OS X?

If Apple had a monopoly in OS X, then yes, certainly the DoJ would need to do precisely that.

Monopolies have different rules that apply to them.

Re:Kind of Misleading

[kripkenstein (913150)]

First, I was referring to the grandparent post of the one you quoted, I thought that's what we were talking about. There I said,

First, it might even be illegal as abuse of Microsoft's monopoly

Second, please link me to something backing up your claim. If I am wrong here, I would like to get a good explanation so I fully understand my mistake, and learn something.

Third, kudos on the STFU and related comments, very classy.

Re:

[ultranova (717540)]

This is interesting and all, but as others have said... Why use HotMail at all? This is like saying "NEWSFLASH: Vista sucks!" Yes, and so? There are BETTER alternatives.

Hotmail is great for throwaway e-mail addresses to be used in registration forms which require them. Create a new address, give it in the form, answer the confirmation e-mail, and never use the address again. The inevitable flood of spam isn't going to make any difference to Hotmail, considering the amount it already gets.

Hotmail is li

Re:

[NeutronCowboy (896098)]

This is a non-story, and these kind of "stories" are making Slashdot feel more and more like digg.

I have to say that I've been reading about how slashdot isn't what it used to be ever since 5-digit UIDs were the domain of noobs. First people said people ought to head to The Well, then Kuro5hin, then Ars Technica, then Digg, then Ars Technica again... yet, here we are, still arguing, discussing and talking about what sites are better than Slashdot. I say that's a tremendous statement about how good Slashdot

Re:Kind of Misleading

[Zymergy (803632)]

The Author FTA said it best:
"Conclusion
All things said, I prefer Gmail."

Hotmail has a nasty habit of deleting all of your email if you fail to login at least once every 30 days.
I vacationed and forgot to login... lost 5+ years worth of email (thankfully, I mirrored important messages to Yahoo)..
'Hotmail of Borg' was "kind enough" to not delete my contacts or account, but they were "sorry" that all of my email was deleted. Nothing to see here move along....
Now, I have been very happily using Gmail since 2004 (but I do have a free Yahoo account that has 8+ years worth of emails also. Redundancy good.)
Hotmail is now totally obsolete IMHO and they treat their customers like dog crap. This is obviously planned by Microsoft. They are about to buy Yahoo to "try" to compete. The mass Exodus (Migration) of all of my Yahoo Email is already underway in preparation for the great FUBARing to come once Microsoft obtains Yahoo and incorporates it into their collective.

I use Gmail 99% of the time now. Thank you Google! (If only Google would now write a compatible OS to make MS Windows obsolete, (even if left beta for years) I'd still buy it!)

Hotmail?

[rvw (755107)]

The solution is simple enough -- spoofing the User Agent that Firefox reports.

Another solution is not to use Hotmail at all.

Re:Hotmail?

[threeturn (622824)]

Exactly

... and don't buy an Iphone and then crack it. If you love open technology don't kludge around products that try to keep you out - find alternatives.

Re:Hotmail?

[LKM (227954)]

There are alternatives to Hotmail. There are none to the iPhone (so far).

Wrong.

[LKM (227954)]

Look, I've been using smartphones since the P800i. I've used Symbian phones, Palm phones and even (for very short amounts of time) Windows CE phones. THEY ALL FUCKING SUCK. This sounds harsh, even crass, but it is unfortunately the truth. Nothing to do with marketing or spin or anything like this. The iPhone is the only phone I've ever owned that I don't hate. Not because it has more features or because it is prettier or anything like that, but simply because it works, it doesn't crash, and it's easy to use. It doesn't make me jump through hoops to enter appointments, it doesn't force me to enter tons of data to join a wireless network, it doesn't come with crappy sync software which never works. It just works exactly like a smartphone should work, and that is why there is no alternative to the iPhone. No other smartphone works as well.

Re:Hotmail?

[eebra82 (907996)]

Another solution is not to use Hotmail at all.

Not the easiest thing to do if you have had Hotmail for many years. Besides, Hotmail is not a bad email client at all. It's definitely not better than Gmail, but still versatile enough.

Re:

[SQLGuru (980662)]

If you have had Hotmail for years, then you probably were grandfathered in to the Outlook plug in....I read my Hotmail in Outlook and have for YEARS. Of course, that's the Windows version of Outlook, so I don't really have the problem with the web client not working, either. But it makes for a much better interface than either web version.

Layne

Re:Hotmail?

[justthinkit (954982)]

I think this is what Microsoft wants now. There was a time when they wanted plenty of email eyeballs -- so they bought Hotmail. Now I think it is a profitless headache to them and has no upside -- so time to slowly kill it.

Furthering my theory is the fact that the invites YahooGroups lists send to msn.com addresses are bounced as spam. Why would Microsoft do this? There is of course no logical reason, nor any civilized reason. One could pretend this is a competitive thing -- reject the competitor's attempt to grow their user base. More realistically msn.com bouncing perfectly reasonable email will simply cause people with msn.com addresses to abandon those addresses -- success from Microsoft's point of view.

Microsoft doesn't need people who only email. They want to push people "forward", into more "advanced" features like Live -- where they can make some actual cash. Email is passe, so why have hundreds of millions of mailboxes to worry about? Of course, this is why they dispose of user email if said user is unable to access their mailbox for a remarkably short amount of time -- a month, IIRC. I used to set reminders so that this wouldn't happen to my backup hotmail.com accounts but now I just let it happen -- useless hotmail.com mailboxes being toasted by a useless company seems appropriately bizarre.

Re:

[shawn(at)fsu (447153)]

Yeah I was wondering is this the best solution? I've never spoofed the User Agent in Firefox but if you spoof it to IE then all those sites (net craft) that determine browser usage would see IE as having more market % than it really does. Am I right or do I not know what I'm talking about?

You geeks...

[by Anonymous Coward]

Just use IE for Linux like anybody else, ok? You bloody geeks..

Re:You geeks...

[sm62704 (957197)]

Damn it Jim I'm a nerd, not a geek! [wikipedia.org]

-mcgrew

It doesn't work with the PS3's browser either

[Highroller (655558)]

It doesn't work with the PlayStation 3's (non-Linux OS mode) browser either.

This seems desperate...

[Nemilar (173603)]

Not only does this wreak of desperation on the part of Microsoft, but I have to wonder how in the world they thought this wasn't going to come out? Or they just didn't care?

"It's our email service, you have to use our browser." Fair enough - you've already driven these users away from your browser, now they're going to go ahead and move their email accounts, too. You're just alienating further those who have already realized that the Microsoft way isn't necessarily the best way.

And hey, Microsoft - people tell their friends about better services. Your competitor's services. How do you think Firefox is spreading so fast? It ain't 'cause of no "Where do you want to go today" commercials. I'm betting Gmail is going to see a nice surge in new accounts because of this.

Re:This seems desperate...

[gazbo (517111)]

Or alternatively they have a browser sniffing script that whitelists known-good browser setups, and FF2/Linux isn't tested and known to work? Or that their FF detection is too strict and so accidentally excludes UA strings that have slight differences?

Why assume it's malicious, when this sort of issue is well known to anyone who's ever tried to support multiple browsers through UA sniffing?

Re:This seems desperate...

[morgan_greywolf (835522)]

Why assume it's malicious, when this sort of issue is well known to anyone who's ever tried to support multiple browsers through UA sniffing?

Oh, there you go again, trying to ruin our Microsoft-bashing funfest with stupid things like "logic" and "reason". Sheesh. You must be new here.

Re:This seems desperate...

[Chemicalscum (525689)]

Yes if Microsoft is prepared to to use this deliberate ploy to degrade the usability of Firefox on Hotmail, then it raises the question what is MS likely to do if they manage to acquire Yahoo.

This sort of behaviour could prove to be counter-productive for Microshaft (I normally disapprove of silly joke name calling of MS, but this is a case where they deserve that epithet). If I worked for Google, I would be carefully documenting this anti-competitive behaviour of MS in web services, in order to build up an anti-trust case against MS's takeover of Yahoo.

Re:This seems desperate...

[ScentCone (795499)]

most of their staff are so dumb that they might have thought they could get away with it

Really? That's really what you think about the people that administer a giant network used by millions of people - that they're just dumb? If there IS an oversight here, why are you assuming that it's some amateur attempt to punish Firefox users (who have been using the service happily for years now), when it's more likely just a misconfigured agent sniffer that needs to be fine tuned around the new FF version's specific appearance on a Linux box? If you, personally, are so much smarter than the software and network engineers that maintain that system, and really think that MS would not care about preventing people from using their system and seeing the advertisements there, which generate revenue, then why aren't you doing something more successful than they are? Or, are you just taking time away from whatever your "smarter than most of the staff at Microsoft" talents normally have you doing on a typical Friday? Give it a rest.

Miconfigured agent sniffer

[phorm (591458)]

And either way, that's somewhat of a dumb mistake to make on an enterprise website. Even smaller companies I've worked for have testing plans to ensure functionality on all major browsers.

So it's either a dumb technical mistake, or a dumb PR/social one... and just because it may take a lot of technical skills (of many people) run run a site with millions of users, doesn't inherently mean that the "social" aspect of the skills are on par.

Also, given MS's track record, I don't really think it's unreasonab

Damn whiners

[Ethanol-fueled (1125189)]

...Another article by another clueless user. He could have just used Internet Explorer for Linux.

Sheesh.

Re:

[Ethanol-fueled (1125189)]

...and a big "WHOOOOOSH!" to the fella who modded that "flamebait" within seconds of its posting. I know it's early, fellas, but can't you at least parse the whole post?

Hmmmm

[Hognoxious (631665)]

Shades of Dos ain't done till Lotus won't run.

Spoofing user agent is no solution

[macsforever2001 (32278)]

Spoofing the user agent is no solution, even if it does work. That's what Micro$oft wants you to do so that it appears that more people are using IE than actually are. The numbers game is far more important than the number of users who actually use Firefox.

The best solution is to dump hotmail and move to a better free email client like Gmail or Yahoo.

Not surprising

[Oxy the moron (770724)]

IIRC, Outlook Web Access has done this for at least the past 5-6 years. Load OWA in Firefox (Windows or Linux), and it looks all choppy with bad frames and images and such. Change the User Agent, and it magically looks almost identical to the same page in IE!

I find it funny that Microsoft goes to these ends... what do you gain by doing that? Do they claim it's because other browers don't work?

Re:

[gad_zuki! (70830)]

>Load OWA in Firefox (Windows or Linux), and it looks all choppy with bad frames and images and such.

Err no. OWA for non-ie browsers is simplified. OWA for IE is pretty much IE-only. You can change the agent string but then its buggy as all hell. Granted, MS could go out of its way to make the non-ie version more robust, but as a corporation they would be helping their competitors.

So theyre not claiming other browsers dont work, but that if you dont use their product youre going to get the simplified p

again with the user agent excludes?

[spyrochaete (707033)]

This sounds very much like the Opera issue on msn.com [theregister.co.uk] a few years ago. Opera suddenly couldn't render the site correctly, so the programmers investigated, spoofed the user agent from "Opera" to the nonexistent browser "Oprah", and suddenly the page rendered perfectly well.

Re:again with the user agent excludes?

[hool5400 (257022)]

If there was a browser called Oprah, i think it would be bloatware.

Nor with Opera

[Badbone (1159483)]

I've found that Hotmail doesn't work too well with Opera either. And a change in the user agent string doesn't help.

The only way to reply to messages is to choose "plain text" instead of rich text. Rich text is the default, but you are not able to type anything. So, choose plain text. Except that when you do that, a random half of the time, Hotmail erases your entire message.

In order to use Hotmail with any ability with Opera, Ive had to develop a several step workaround, just to reply to email. Thats one (more) reason why the upcoming Yahoo/MS merger worries me. If Yahoo mail goes the way of Hotmail, my workaround will move from occasional to every single damn time.

Hotmail, huh?

[blackbirdwork (821859)]

Who uses hotmail anyway?

Yahoo! Trainwreck Coming

[Doc Ruby (173196)]

This exact disaster is exactly why Microsoft cannot be allowed to extend its monopoly to absorb Yahoo. When Yahoo fails the way Hotmail now has with Firefox, the way Hotmail did when MS tried to cut it over to Windows servers, the Internet will take a major hit. Even if it drives consumers to GMail, that just reinforces Google's dominance, without credible competition.

The Internet itself is a hothouse for competition. The global environment for megacorps, though, is precisely the opposite. When the business drives the apps, which it always will at that scale, the Internet's flexibility will become a hothouse for monopolies. Since the entire world depends on the Internet, that Internet monoculture must be stopped. That's why people have governments: to stop the ambitious among them from exploiting advantages that hurt everyone else.

There is every evidence that Microsoft's control of Yahoo would be a disaster, and no evidence that it would be good for anyone but Microsoft (and maybe the Yahoo shareholders they buy off). If the deal goes through, that's the proof that the people need to change our governments to actually protect us, instead of serving these monopolies.

MISLEADING! Worked this AM for me.

[Tsu Dho Nimh (663417)]

Firefox, Ubuntu ... no problem opening it and getting mail. If there were enhancements, I don't care. It's a mail system, not a video game.

Anti competition anybody?

[myxiplx (906307)]

Sounds like something else that could do with being pointed out to the EU. Using their web presence to artificially tie people to their desktop monopoly. Yes, we all expect this from Microsoft, but it really shouldn't be allowed.

Microsoft isn't the only one doing this

[by Anonymous Coward]

I honestly think that so-called "web developers" should be banned from ever looking at the user-agent string. Example: My bank's website works on every browser I've tried it with, except Firefox on OpenBSD. (Yes, it works on Firefox on Linux.) This is kind of ridiculous, so I sent in an email about it. I got some ignorant tech support email back clearly not understanding the problem.

Web "developers" are simply dumb. That's all. Yes, this suddenly turns into a huge story because it's Microsoft. But, even in that case, I wouldn't be surprised if this is just somebody they hired in a low level position being ignorant.

Past 30+ years, Microsoft a selfish brat

[AppleTwoGuru (830505)]

Microsoft has not worked well with anyone. Even though they are a company based in the United States and Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer are U.S. citizens, they have a philosophy and mantra that goes against the principles of democracy, against the very foundations of their country that establish freedom and opportunities for ALL people. They simply want to take advantage of numbers, not grow a society in the freedoms many forefathers have fought for, but one that would continue to give them lots and lots of money. They are selfish, greedy, and self-serving. All they care about is getting people to use their software, so they continue their money stream. They don't care who they exclude, they don't have to care about the quality of their services, because they have a monopoly bought from the US-government through the avenues that allow special interests to take power away from the people and give it to the people who have a lot of money, no matter if that money was earned honestly, or not.

If the way Microsoft did business is very good, right, and moral, then why not teach this to our kids in our schools? Lacking in creativity? getting bad grades? Pay off your teacher. Buy your way through school through manipulation, power, and influence. Isn't that what Microsoft has done in the real world, except they have bought their way through the government enough to dispell public scrutiny? If we let Microsoft do this, are we not doing our kids a disservice because we are not teaching them the way the world is? Maybe the correct way is not democracy, but to make as much money as possible, any way you can, buying your way through life, and forgetting people who have less power than you?

If we would let Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer take over the world, I would have to say, your free speech would be removed, you would have to pay to post your words here on Slashdot, and your words would of course be censored, and only speech that would glorify Microsoft's cause as long as Bill and Steve could use it propaganda for their empire. They are no different than one country trying to take over the world. There are governments in their way and they will be dealt with accordingly.

Your choice. Freedom or Bondage. I want freedom. In everything I do, I do those things that promote those ideals. In regards to computing, I use a lot of Open Source software, like Linux and Mac OS X, Open Office, and Firefox (stuff Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer do not want me to use because it does not suit their purposes) not closed source garbage, like MS-Windows, Microsoft Office, or Internet Explorer (stuff that would lock me in to giving Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer perpetual money without them having to earn it from me.)

C'mon People - Start Using Those GMail Invites Up!

[pandrijeczko (588093)]

So Firefox has problems with Hotmail? So what's the problem?

I've sent 20+ Gmail invites to Hotmail-using friends of mine complaining about endless spam, the slowness of it and the sudden removal of POP3 support. Not one of them since has ever sent me an email from a "hotmail.com" email address.

So start using up those 99 Gmail invites you can send out to "the great unwashed" - once they see Gmail, they won't go back and then Hotmail not working with Firefox won't be a problem any more because Hotmail will be dead.

the real solution is even simpler

[nguy (1207026)]

Simply don't use Hotmail. Take your traffic to services that don't play such stupid tricks.

It's not the first time they did this!

[AlgorithMan (937244)]

in may 2007 MS improved maps.live.com (added higher resolution images)
the service didn't work with firefox under linux either, unless you fooled it by using "user agent switcher"!

here's the link (in german though)
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/S-Geht-ueberhaupt-nicht-unter-Linux-grundlos-und-irrefuehrende-Fehlermeldung/forum-117910/msg-12830126/read/

if you ask me, this cries for a lawsuit for anti-competitive behaviour...

Who uses Hotmail with Firefox on Linux?

[Incster (1002638)]

I am surprised that anyone noticed.

Re:

[Shados (741919)]

It already does: XBAP applications. Windows only and all, thats why the .NET community pushed them hard to make Silverlight 2 (which was originally going to be much, much more limited than it is)