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First Looks at The Gimp 2.5
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Mon Apr 14, 2008 08:27 AM
from the like-a-fine-wine dept.
from the like-a-fine-wine dept.
desmondhaynes writes "The GIMP team announced today the first release from the 2.5 development series. It is true that this version is unstable, but a little bird told me to give it a try and see what's it capable of. First of all, let me tell you that its interface is quite redesigned and I think that some users will have problems adjusting with it, but that's just my two cents. On the other hand, version 2.5.0 of The GIMP includes some hot new features, like the integration of GEGL (Generic Graphics Library) which will finally get support for higher color depths, more colorspaces and eventually non-destructive editing."
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Yay New Features (Score:3)
Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that the GIMP's user interface was haphazardly thrown together by programmers with absolutely no concern for HCI. Photoshop's interface couldn't possibly be better despite the thousands of hours of research and user interface testing that Adobe has put into it. Nope, absolutely none of that matters!
Keep blaming people's familiarity with Photoshop and you'll be sure to continue the GIMPs long standing tradition of complete and utter failure.
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Insightful)
I love the GIMP, and I've never actually had Photoshop. However, I will say that I frequently get lost in trying to figure out where things are. If, instead of saying, "Oh, it's not Photoshop, your complaint isn't legit!", they all said "Let's see what we can do to fix this," things would probably get better more quickly.
I understand they've been working on things, hence this release, but these complaints are very old.
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Interesting)
If you want the Photoshop interface, check out GIMPshop [wikipedia.org]. It doesn't seem to be very popular though, I guess not EVERYONE is hankering for a Photoshop interface.
I use it a lot and like it a lot. So do many other people. It keeps getting better and gaining more features.
No one's getting paid to write the GIMP... they don't *have to* judge their success based on commercial competition. That's the beauty of open source/free software: if it's useful to *someone*, it will continue to be developed.
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Insightful)
I use only the Windows port of GIMP - I don't do much photo editing, but before the not much that I didn't do was not done in Photoshop. </Englishgrammar>
The Photoshop interface was clunky, but I blame that on the "We have 5 million features that you will probably never used, all cleverly hidden under buttons!
The GIMP interface, however, fails at basic Windows GUI principles. This is to be expected, of course, but come on - the interface is generally split up into 3 modeless dialog boxes. The one that has your tools on it is hidden if you maximize your editing window. Ditto for the layers box. They kinda got it right with some features like "transform" - the relevant dialog box pops up, in view, in the editing window, as you're editing.
The whole 3-separate-windows thing (editing, tools, layers) looks like a lazy hack, something I did when a project was due and I was too lazy (read: procrastinated on the deadline and was too time constrained) to write a proper interface.
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:4, Insightful)
Or are you one of those people that say that Linux is a failure because it's not just a free copy of Windows, with everything exactly the same?
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Informative)
Having not used it in 2 years, I'll try:
1) The multiple windows thing
I think this is the most often cited issue so I will list it first. GIMP opens multiple top-level windows which means that normal shortcuts and window navigation doesn't work. (Alt-tab on Windows -- apple-tab on Macs, etc.) The only way to use GIMP is to have multiple virtual desktops, which not everyone likes. The barrage of windows clutters the interface, and windows move around a lot because when you select new tools they resize or change. You can see through to the desktop which is distracting. I know at least on the Windows version, the keys that hide windows so you can get to your image don't really work right. Maybe my experience is skewed though because of the Windows and Mac ports. But IIRC, this same stuff happened on Linux.
This problem has garnered enough hate that there are several open-source projects that are either modifications to Photoshop, or programs that re-parent the window so that it behaves more normally. Unfortauntely, all of them are hacks and don't work super-well.
2) Unusual use of menus
- The menus are just... oddd. To a new user, the app is useless because once you open something, you get a window with no menus. After much frustration, the user monkey-clicks the mouse and realizes the menus are on the right-click instead of at the top of the window. That might not actually be a bad idea, but it is definitely counter-intuitive. Especially for "file" operations where people are used to seeing File-New/Open/Save/Save As/Close and those just aren't there.
This is not an issue for an advanced user, but it is strikingly odd to someone new, and it might force a lot of people to give-up right away.
3) Things that are NOT problems
- I'm browsing the comments and I see comments about Photoshop having an odd user-interface. I see comments that one particular tool or another doesn't work the way someone expects. I think these people are missing the point. The problems with GIMP aren't that some particular tool is not as easy to use as a Photoshop tool, or vice-versa. The problem is that nobody can even find the tool in GIMP because the overarching user-interface is so strange. Once people can get to the tool in the first place, then think about how the tool behaves.
4) Other
If you really want to know, this comes-up on Slashdot every 6 months or so. Probably some searching will come-up with obvious things I've completely forgotten over time.
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:4, Informative)
I guess the long answer is: GIMP was initially designed for systems that didn't have taskbars, and did have multiple desktops; the result was the interface you seem familiar with, which, I agree, had serious shortcomings when ported to Windows. Over the years various efforts have been made to clean this up, and are still ongoing. Windows, of course, is still not the best platform, though there are plugins like Portable Background Window [portableapps.com] which provide a single background window which contains all the GIMP windows, providing an MDI style interface for Windows.
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Re:GIMP relies on having decent window managers (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would I want multiple desktops? So that I can be even less aware of applications that aren't running in the foreground?
Not everyone's brain works the same way. You may like virtual desktops. I like having three physical monitors with one desktop that spans them so I can see at a glance all of the applications I'm using for a given task.
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Re:GIMP relies on having decent window managers (Score:4, Insightful)
(Are multiple desktops set up by default in a typical Linux distribution these days?)
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:4, Interesting)
Screenshots or it didn't happen!
Oh wait. The GIMP [hylobatidae.org], Photoshop CS3 [hylobatidae.org]. Behold some passing similarities!
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, this means that toolbars never show up in Expose or spaces, or in advanced task-switchers like Witch; GIMP's toolbars also, last I dealt with it, showed up in the GNOME panel, resulting in a half-dozen entries just to edit one image.
Toolbars are not windows. Seriously. I hope this is one of the fixes, or it's going to keep being treated like a half-baked toy.
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Interesting)
I think you are wrong.
I HATE the Gimp's GUI. Absolutely, completely despise it, and here's why. Say I have a bunch of apps open, browser, music player, my home folder, and Gimp. Now, the Gimp actually has three windows, The document window, the tool browser and the layers palate (actually it can have more than that, but that's the default). Now, let's suppose that I've finished reading slashdot, and I want to carry on editing my image, so I click on the taskbar button named "image.xcf". The image I was working on is maximized, but where are my editing tools? oh, they're still minimised. Back down to the taskbar, click on the GIMP button. OK, so I select the tool I want, but wait, I'm on the wrong layer. OK, back down to the taskbar, click on the Layers,Channels button, up pops the layer selector.
OK, so so far I've had to maximize three separate windows, just to be able to edit the image. But it gets even more annoying, because you can end up with the image over the top of the tool palates, so every time you want to go back and change a tool, you have to go back down to the taskbar and select the palate window again (or alt tab).
Now the reason I think you're wrong is because last time I posted a rant like this, two Mac users pointed out that Photoshop on the Mac does not work like this. Apperently, clicking on any image open in photoshop also brings the tools into focus as well. Of course I could be wrong as well, since I have no direct experience with Photoshop on Macs.
And before anyone points out that I could just set the palates to "Always on top", yes I could, and as a matter of fact I do, but it grates on me to have to work around a programs stupid defaults. Besides, I then have to manually minimize them if I want to use another program, and then manually bring them back up after clicking on an image window. Still annoying. Clicking an image in Gimp should bring the image up along with a full set of editing tools.
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Why it's done this way: (Score:5, Insightful)
I always found using multiple windows was a good idea -- it lets the window manager actually manage the windows. If it's annoying, in the ways you describe, maybe that says something about your window manager?
At least on OS X, that is how all programs work. Or at least, it is possible to click on an application to raise all of its windows, and command+tab (like alt+tab, but better) will actually raise all of those windows. Windows are actually naturally grouped by application -- I had a keystroke to cycle through open Terminals, and that actually worked really well, because Terminal is actually its own application.
Gimp was developed on Linux, where we've had a few sane windowing ideas that Windows has yet to pick up on, and OS X is only slowly starting to steal. Simple example: Virtual desktops. Put gimp on its own workspace, and you are literally one keystroke away from moving back to that image.
And then there are dual-monitor systems. This is where Photoshop really starts to be annoying, unless there is some way I don't know of to detach the tools (probably is) -- it's possible to put the image itself, completely maximized, on one monitor, and all of the tools on another monitor.
Most open source programs try to assume less about their user -- what if you didn't want that full set of editing tools to come up? What if you just want to look at the image, on as much screen area as possible, before you start editing? Why should it be the job of the individual application to work around crappy window managers?
All that said, there's always GimpShop -- haven't tried it myself, but it claims to make Gimp look photoshop-like.
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Insightful)
I understand where you're coming from. But I think the UI design does actually make a lot of sense in a Linux context. Some of the problems you describe may be a consequence of a flawed port to windows. But when you're working with virtual desktops those problems completely disappear.
In my case, I'm reading slashdot in my 'firefox' desktop. When I want to get back to editing a picture I hotkey over to the 'gimp' desktop where all the windows are laid out how I want them. When I need to check mail, I hop over to my mail desktop and so on. Nothing is ever minimized, and I never find myself alt-tabbing through a dozen unrelated windows, as would happen when all my apps are on the same desktop.
Given that 99% of my computer use is confined to 3 apps (browser, editor, mail), a six desktop layout is more than enough room for all, without becoming too complex to navigate. Now that MS supports multiple desktops as well, at least in Vista, people may start discovering that there are saner ways to arrange multiple windows than squeezing them all onto the toolbar of a single desktop.
yp.
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, like changing a simple right-click on a layer, then 'Alpha to selection' to 'Select', 'Load Selection...', then selecting the appropriate document and channel from no-preview combo-boxes...
The GIMP's batshit insane, but Photoshop is as loopy as a teapot. Their particular modes of madness simply aren't entirely compatible - The GIMP is definitely pretty bad in places, but for the life of me I can't figure out how Photoshop is supposed to be infinitely superior from a user interface point of view.
I must admit that I still really like The GIMP's perspective correction tool - Photoshop's got better distortion tools, but they won't run backwards. Unlike the crop tool's perspective correction, which has no handy grid-lines visible. There's the lens correction filter, but that's really fiddly. But is brilliant at removing barrel distortion from texture references - something that's a real arse in The GIMP.
Drawing tools? I really like how the hold-shift-to-draw-a-straight-line works in The GIMP. Click somewhere, undo to remove that splodge, hold shift down and it'll preview a fine line from where you clicked to the current cursor position. Click somewhere, and it'll draw a line with the current drawing tool. Hold down control-shift, and it'll lock to particular angles.
Photoshop? Click, undo to remove that splodge, ARSE! it's forgotten where I clicked. Okay
With Photoshop, it's really easy to set up guides for your simple, shadowy lines on yer textures - but I still like The GIMP's way of doing it.
Actually, The GIMP's handling of alpha channels is a bit more sensible - right up until the point it merrily decides to discard colour information from completely transparent pixels. As part of an 'optimisation', albeit one that only gets invoked with certain operations. So it's very easy to completely destroy your texture, unless you keep to a strict, undocumented set of operations.
Photoshop's alpha handling is plain weird in places, but it's a bit more predictable...
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right. It's only been 12+ years that people have been asking for those things. Now GIMP actually has an engine capable of doing them (note that it doesn't actually do them yet). It'll only be another few years until the basics are covered!
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Re:Yay New Features (Score:4, Informative)
You might want to try CinePaint (formerly called Film Gimp). It is a fork of Gimp aimed specifically at touching up frames of film. It supports 8, 16, and 32 bit color, CMYK, HDR, Onion skinning, etc.
It is mainly developed by film production, special effects companies and has been used on many major motion pictures (Harry Potter, Spider Man, etc.).
It may well be more what you're looking for if you're working with film images.
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Jam Tomorrow (Score:3, Insightful)
Reminds me of KDE4.
Re:Jam Tomorrow (Score:5, Informative)
To take myself as an example I take photos with a digital camera that gives me RAW files. Those are 12-bit files, which means 4096 colors per pixel rather than the 256 you get with 8 bit. Now I will be able to edit those in the gimp without loosing any quality, which means alot less posterisation when adjusting contrast and settings like that. The output image will simply look alot better, with the same tools that we already have in the gimp (assuming that the input image is of good quality of course).
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Re:Jam Tomorrow (Score:5, Informative)
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Have they changed the name yet? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Have they changed the name yet? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Have they changed the name yet? (Score:5, Insightful)
A product named GIMP ain't going nowhere -- face it. Not even if it were a good substitute for its competition, which it still very much is not. While changing the name won't improve the utility of the product, at least it will encourage more people to use it -- and thus maybe develop for it too.
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Re:Have they changed the name yet? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Have they changed the name yet? (Score:4, Interesting)
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You are free to call it anything you want (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Have they changed the name yet? (Score:5, Funny)
Professional Image Manipulation Program
Simple Image Manipulation Program
Lightmap Image Manipulation Program
Windowed Image Manipulation Program
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You *know* it hasn't noticeably improved when... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You *know* it hasn't noticeably improved when.. (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:You *know* it hasn't noticeably improved when.. (Score:5, Informative)
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Ad trap (Score:4, Insightful)
One can tell that from his very first comment (on the splash screen):
But probably this is just a temporary one, as the final version will have a totally different splash!
Then it just goes downhill from there, ending with a description of what The Gimp is.
Thanks, I didn't know what it was before, now I have to read your crappy review once again so it makes sense.
At least there were no shortage of ads, which surprisingly got through my AdBlock Plus.
BAD ADBLOCK! BAD!
Appauling (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Appauling (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Find interesting tech story
2. Copy pasta
3. Insert ads
4. Send to Slashdot/Digg
5. Profit!
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Malware (Score:5, Informative)
Single window, please? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is likely the number one request for s number of years, yet we have to wait until 2.8 to even see if it will happen?
The Gimp is a nice tool, but it really should listen to it's users.
Solen content!!! (Score:5, Informative)
Excited about GEGL (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been looking forward to them integrating GEGL for some time now, and it looks like they've finally done it. This is going to be the single best thing to happen to open-source image manipulation in a long time.
GEGL will take care of almost all the current complaints from image professionals related to image bit depths, printing features, etc. It'll make layering effects much easier to apply and it makes everything related to image manipulation completely modular.
Also, think about how REALLY nice it is that the image manipulations routines are now librarified (is that a word?)... It means that we'll likely see other new applications pop up here and there taking advantage of this nicely-designed back-end. So don't worry about the lack of changes to the GUI, this will come in time, and even the GUI-related complaints (though I don't understand them) will likely be eventually moot.
I think it's great that they've finally achieved this long sought-after goal of redesigning the GIMP back-end and integrating it into the application. We should all be very excited about this! I use the GIMP all the time for my (non-professional) needs, and it's an amazing piece of software.
Let's look at Inkscape: (Score:5, Interesting)
Inkscape's UI is a lot better than GIMP's. Everyone admits that. And it's much improved in 0.46 anyway.
Inkscape, as a vector application, is simply a better choice for a lot of graphic tasks for which clueless people still try to use GIMP or Photoshop. Just look at the "can it draw circles" thread in this discussion!
AND YET, despite all this, new version of GIMP gets front page news on Slashdot, but any submissions about Inkscape 0.46 are rejected.
This is simply ridiculous.
Re:Let's look at Inkscape: (Score:4, Interesting)
Aren't you aware of the fact that open source is very version-shy, in general? And that a quality of an open source application is not correlated with its version number? I thought this was Slashdot where such things need not be explained.
> Inkscape is a better choice for graphic tasks that involve vectors.
Which is the clear majority of all graphic tasks, overall. Draw something? Best done in vector, with full freedom and editability. Compose something out of existing stock art? Pure vector. Anything involving text? Of course vector, using GIMP/Photoshop for text is self-inflicted torture. Banners, diagrams, cartoons, maps, buttons? Vector, vector, vector...
What remains to bitmap editors? Well, editing photos, naturally. Retouching, color correction, RAW work. Also, naturalistic drawing emulating watercolor, oil etc (but this is not the domain of GIMP or Photoshop either, try ArtRage). That's about all. Even things like shadows, bevels, and texturizing can now be done in Inkscape using filters.
> It's more likely they just use bitmap tools more than they use vector tools.
And this is sad. I know Photoshop came first and deeply entrenched itself into the brains of users. But come on people, it's time to give it a second thought. It's 21st century and vector editors have progressed far, far beyond what was available in the 90s.
> Last time I used Inkscape, on X11 on Macintosh, it wasn't even capable of sorting the File->Open dialog in alphabetical order.
It's curious that for your pick, you chose one of the things that is actually common to both Inkscape and GIMP - the file dialog provided by the GTK library! Of course Inkscape does not maliciously missort your files, it's just the default with the GTK version you were using. And I have just searched even deleted and closed bug reports and could not find yours. So, if it's still not fixed in 0.46, please go to https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape [launchpad.net] and report it.
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Re:First looks at gimp 2.5.... (Score:5, Funny)
I kid... if it had 16-bit support I would use the Gimp since I don't care about CMYK.
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You need to be more patient, first we're going to discuss CMYK.
Once we're done with that we'll look at your MFI problem...
Re:Meh. Can it make circles and squares? (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Meh. Can it make circles and squares? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure Paint.NET and Photoshop blur the lines a bit, but the better tool still, in the proprietary world, would be Adobe Illustrator, or something like Inkscape in the OSS world.
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Paint.NET (Score:4, Interesting)
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