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Last-Minute Glitch Holds Up Windows XP SP3

Posted by kdawson on Tue Apr 29, 2008 03:51 PM
from the it's-always-something dept.
Operating Systems Software Windows Microsoft Upgrades
An anonymous reader sends word that Microsoft Windows XP SP3, which had been scheduled to hit the Web today, was pulled back at the last minute. SP3 apparently broke a Microsoft application, Microsoft Dynamics Retail Management System. Their solution is to set up a filter to make sure that no system running the affected software will get automatically updated; once the filter is in place, SP3 will be released to the Web. A fix for the incompatibility will follow.
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[+] Windows XP SP3 Released To Manufacturing 323 comments
mike_diack was one of many readers to send word that Windows XP SP3 been released to manufacturing. It will be available to OEMs and enterprise customers on April 29. Here is a summary of features and changes. The company will wait till "early summer" to enable SP3 downloads through Automatic Updates.
Submission: MS XP SP3 held due to last-minute glitch by Anonymous Coward
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Last-Minute Glitch Holds Up Windows XP SP3 50 Comments More /

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  • Curious (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TubeSteak (669689) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @03:55PM (#23244032) Journal
    You'd think Microsoft would test Service Packs against all Microsoft products while the SPs are still in Alpha or Beta.

    • I'm not suprised (Score:5, Insightful)

      by EmbeddedJanitor (597831) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @04:20PM (#23244436)
      Firstly, the type of organisation using retail management systems tend to be conservative and not bleeding edge because downtime costs money. They would not be playing with beta SP releases and would not be seeing problems.

      Secondly, Microsoft is not one monolithic entity, as many believe, but a group of different business units. The DRMS folk aren't going to drop their current activities to check whether a different business unit's updates work.

      Thirdly, so what! Why not ship it anyway with a release note saying "Don't use with DRMS!". SP2 broke some MS developer tools and that did not stop them shipping it. Some organisations had to wait months for updates before they could migrate to SP2.

      • Microsoft is not one monolithic entity, as many believe, but a group of different business units.
        At least that was the assertion by the Justice Department. I don't think MS sees it that way.

      • Re:Curious (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Romancer (19668) <romancer@dUMLAUT ... .com minus punct> on Tuesday April 29 2008, @04:34PM (#23244594) Journal
        That is what alpha and beta testing is supposed to address. It's not unreasonable to expect that during the beta testing of a piece of software that they would try and make sure it was compatable with at least the software packages they sell.

        And secondly, this is what happens when software isn't sectioned off from the os and contained with reasonable restrictions and documented APIs. This would be a really simple thing for them if they even stuck to their own standards. How would if break another application if they had communicated a set of standards to both departments on how to program properly. Or even built an OS that contained programs to a reasonable level and didn't always throw crap into the OS directory. /rant

        • Re:Curious (Score:5, Informative)

          by Z34107 (925136) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @08:18PM (#23246922)

          Bah. "FUD," I think the word is.

          Or even built an OS that contained programs to a reasonable level and didn't always throw crap into the OS directory.

          I assume you're talking about DLL hell. This has been solved since at least XP - overwriting a file in a system directory will silently fail if it's being replaced with an older copy. So, replacing winsock.dll version 2.1 with a version 1.0 because you fail at writing an installer will no longer screw up your system.

          Think of Service Packs as analogous to kernel patches. Those have been known to screw up a few programs, haven't they?

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by JebusIsLord (566856)
            Windows File Protection only protects a static list of files installed by Windows. To quote MS:

            "All SYS, DLL, EXE, and OCX files that ship on the Windows CD are protected. True Type fonts--Micross.ttf, Tahoma.ttf, and Tahomabd.ttf--are also protected."
            http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/wfp.mspx#E3F [microsoft.com]

            DLL hell still very much exists, as I fight with at work all the time doing application packaging. Typically things like incompatible crystal reports dlls are an issue. Typically and end-user will end up with d

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by revlayle (964221)
              Say what you will about MS and .NET.... .NET (as the parent says) certainly has reduced DLL hell *significantly* Also, it has become increasingly easier to "zip up a folder" of a managed app, unzip to another system and run without a single problem (unless there are hard paths in the app's config file that a well done app will detect and will 1) fix or 2) interactive ask the user "hay where is this?"). As long as you have the correct .NET runtime (which isn't anything different from any other runtime libr
      • I could buy that excuse if this were a bug that only manifested in bizarre configurations. If this is simply a case of RMS failing to work on any XP SP3, then your excuse doesn't hold water.

        Of course, this doesn't even get into the fact that MS is using it's dominance in the OS market to give it an advantage in other markets... AGAIN. I sincerely doubt that MS would hold up a service pack release if I notified them that MY application would not run on their SP.

  • What a surprise (Score:4, Funny)

    by thetoadwarrior (1268702) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @03:57PM (#23244074) Homepage
    It's a shame they don't have full access to all Microsoft products to test this long before the release date.

  • Isn't this anticompetitive? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by annamadrigal (1134821) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @04:00PM (#23244128)
    Seriously, if Microsoft is prepared to hold up an update of this sort and then modify the procedure to kludge their way around the problem for their own software but would just release the patch if it was someone else's application, then this seems extremely dubious to my non-expert mind. After all, doesn't this give their applications the unusual, and unfair, advantage that they might work with Windows both before and after a major update?

    • Re:Isn't this anticompetitive? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by i.of.the.storm (907783) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @06:11PM (#23245744) Homepage
      Uh, they delayed the release of Vista SP1 for other companies' drivers to be updated, isn't that the same thing? Perhaps you should do some research before pulling the anticompetitive flag, it's in their best interests to make sure their own shit works properly, shit though it may be. (Note: That's not my opinion, but probably that of others here.)
      • I think one issue is that software that caused the delay does not have a large deployment. If the issue was with IIS or Active Directory, etc. that might be something else. But MS Dynamic Retail Managment Systems? I've never even heard of it before today. The article even mentioned that it is target to small and medium businesses but suggested that it isn't widely deployed.

      • they delayed the release of Vista SP1 for other companies' drivers to be updated, isn't that the same thing?
        Whether you realize it or not, drivers are considered by most non-technical users, the resposibility of the OS.

        How many crap "Linux sux because my modem doesn't work" do we see?

        It goes both ways an MS knows that.
        • Well, not many because I don't think many people are still using modems, although if they were they probably would be winmodems in which case we would see posts like that. But the same goes for wifi cards especially these days. And my point still stands, it's not anticompetitive, it's just in their best interests in either ways and doesn't cut off competition in any way as the OP insinuated.

  • According to a leaked recording from Microsoft's secret underground Quality Assurance Lair, the real reason was a bit more complicated. Here's a transcription from the files that I received:

    "Hey, guys! Why is this chair stuck inside SP3? How does this kind of stuff get in here anyway? We can't ship it like this!"

    This kind of thing happens more ofteh than you might think.

  • A Dynamics Feature! (Score:5, Informative)

    by DnemoniX (31461) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @04:01PM (#23244156)
    I work for an online retailer and one of my recent tasks was to evaluate Dynamics for potential use in house. The problem that we ran into was that the media that Microsoft sent us directly plain didn't work. We couldn't even get the package to install; hell we even read the manual. We tried it on XP, Server 2003, and 2008 beta. The installer walks you through all of the preinstall requirements and manages to explode every time. So are they sure SP3 dumping Dynamics isn't just a "feature"?

    We are looking at the Apache Open For Biz suite now instead and if that doesn't satisfy management they will go with SugarCRM.
    • dynamics what?
      microsoft has bought a lot of business software (navision, axapta, great plains etc) and calls them all dynamics. they are still extremly different under the hood.
      • When the same piece of media blows up on multiple platforms, then get another piece of media. Even though a lot of other posts also lead towards product instability, maybe in this case it was a bad bit.

  • well done (Score:5, Insightful)

    by geekoid (135745) <dadinportlandNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Tuesday April 29 2008, @04:01PM (#23244160) Homepage Journal
    they caught an error and patched it for everyone else while working on it.

    This can happen to any patch that rolls out. It's when it's not caught that we should complain.

    No, I am NOT an apologist.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by machxor (1226486)
      They didn't really patch anything. As anyone running Microsoft Dynamics Retail Management System can still break things by installing XP SP3. As far as I can tell they are not changing the actual SP3 installer so that it will not install on a machine running Microsoft Dynamics Retail Management System. Doesn't even sound like it will warn.
      • The patched the installer to not run on MSDRMS.
        That's all I meant. And they did catch it.

        Interesting, I wonder if when Bill Gates hears the term DRM, he thinks people are talking about MSDRMS?
        That would explain a lot...no, maybe not.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by machxor (1226486)
          But if you RTFA you'll see that they did not patch the installer. They "patched" Windows Update to not provide you with the installer for XP SP3 if it detects MS DRMS. There have been no changes that prevent a MS DRMS user from downloading the SP3 installer exe and running it. "To help protect our customers, we plan to put filtering in place shortly to prevent Windows Update from offering both service packs to systems running Microsoft Dynamics RMS. Once filtering is in place, we expect to release Windows
          • Yes, my bad. I shoudl ahve said instll process.

            Nothing in that statement says that you will be able to run the exe and install it, there could very well be adding code for that...based on history I would say there isn't. But hey, they are getting a little better.

            My concerns is there going to release SP3 to all non-POS users(or prevent the install) makes some changes to the service pack, and then open it up. Essential creating two different SP3s.

            If you are running in production system, and especially one tha

  • What else will break? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by blunte (183182) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @04:13PM (#23244336)
    Makes you wonder what software will break that they didn't test...

    I suppose we owe thanks to the early adopters out there for testing all our updates.

    Now you know why your corporate IT department is so reluctant to update software and OSs.
    • After I installed SP3, it broke Microsoft Office Communicator 2005. Instead of launching as usual, it reverted back to the install script and wanted the CD. Not a big loss, but certainly a flag for an important point:

      The service pack was NOT tested with all current or recent Microsoft software (this app is one version behind). Even just launching it would have revealed this one.
    • Now you know why your corporate IT department is so reluctant to update software and OSs.

      Tis worse - even those of us who have an MSDN Universal subscription - cannot get access to this bloody service pack to do testing prior to the release. Looks the corps will find out what works when the boxes start to autoupdate.

  • Wait a minute.. (Score:3, Funny)

    by mweather (1089505) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @04:17PM (#23244390)
    People actually use that POS?

      • DRMS is intended as a multiuser/multistore solution
        Bigger question is why does Microsoft expect people running "mulituser/multistore solution(s)" to use the same OS as multimedia producers, gamers, programmers, etc?

        One-size-fits-all is not a good approach to operating systems, as far as I'm concerned. You wouldn't believe how much junk I have to disable before I can safely and efficiently run my digital audio workstation or video editing suite.

  • In a nutshell (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 29 2008, @04:17PM (#23244400)
    In a nutshell:

      * one of Microsoft's own software breaks after installing SP3 for Windows XP.

      * the software that breaks is a business application, and not some security program requiring undocumented API calls or system drivers

    What are the odds that software from others will break, too?

    A cynical part of me wonders if SP3 contains breaking changes to make life harder for WINE, and possibly other solutions.

    Does anyone have more info regarding the specific reasons for breakage?

  • It must be hard... (Score:3, Funny)

    by jberryman (1175517) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @04:18PM (#23244412)
    getting all those glitches in on time for release.

  • Our fears confirmed (Score:5, Funny)

    by MrKevvy (85565) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @04:24PM (#23244486)
    SP3...apparently broke a Microsoft application, Microsoft Dynamics Retail Management System...

    Service Pack withdrawn because it breaks the Microsoft DRM System. Cue tinfoil hats.

  • Amazed (Score:5, Funny)

    by jdc180 (125863) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @04:33PM (#23244580)
    I'm amazed the submitter didn't go for the glitzy headline: "Microsoft breaks RMS"
  • They should have just filled out a Karnaugh map and done the overlapping square trick. That gets rid of some glitches.
  • I never knew that RMS was able to stop a service pack! :) I've been waiting all day to make that one. Epic fail.
  • So does this mean when its released it will be glitch free!? YAY!!
  • Microsoft racing to restore compatibility with DRMS.

  • Their solution is to set up a filter to make sure that no system running the affected software will get automatically updated; once the filter is in place, SP3 will be released to the Web. A fix for the incompatibility will follow.
    Sounds more like a hack to me.
  • I think that it is still going to cause problems. My local computer mag site already has it as a download and will prolly be on their next cover disk: http://www.pcauthority.com.au/Download/109499,microsoft-windows-xp-service-pack-3.aspx [pcauthority.com.au]

    But as someone else pointed out, not many who run Dynamics will ever bother to do a manual update.

  • I've already built a slipstreamed SP3 machine (Score:4, Informative)

    by spywhere (824072) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @07:34PM (#23246550)
    After one false start a few days ago, caused when someone posted build 3311 (a release candidate) as the final RTM, I downloaded the final release this morning. I immediately slipstreamed it into a (XP Pro SP2) CD folder, threw an answer file winnt.sif into the i386 directory, and burned a bootable CD.
    Then, I swapped a blank hard disk into this very HP DV9000 laptop, and did the clean unattended SP3 build.
    The build went OK, I installed all my apps with few surprises, and now I'm back up on my old user profile (since I'm on a domain, it even remembers my stored passwords).

    A few observations:
    --They didn't add too many drivers: SP3.CAB (which presumably includes all the contents of SP2.CAB) is only 19587 KB in size, a mere 7 percent larger than the SP2 driver file released in August 2004.
    --I don't think any of those added drivers helped my DV9000: I ended up installing every single device I had to update a few months ago when I last did a clean SP2 install.
    --They did, at least, include the High-Definition Audio update in SP3. This is helpful, since Microsoft no longer offers the update for download; building a clean SP2 box with HD Audio previously required one to find a copy somewhere else before the sound -- and often the modem -- drivers would work.
    --It doesn't include IE7, and my customized Google installer wouldn't work on the SP3 installation, so I had to get it from Windows Update.
    --As one might expect, it saved quite a bit of time on the post-build Windows Updates. Not counting IE7, Office or hardware drivers, this particular machine has only downloaded half a dozen updates so far.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Sentry21 (8183)
      I keep evangelizing this program on Slashdot, but it keeps being worth it, so I'll do it again.

      If people are going to build slipstreamed XP discs, they need to start using nLite. It allows you not only to slipstream in SP3, but also things like Windows Media Player 11 (nice), and there are packs you can grab from the site to add things like Firefox, Acrobat, Sun Java, FoxIt PDF Reader, and so on.

      â¦THENâ¦

      You can go through and remove stuff. Windows XP has a ton of drivers for video cards.

    • Vista SP1 has the same bug (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Joe The Dragon (967727) on Tuesday April 29 2008, @04:01PM (#23244144)
      Vista SP1 has the same bug

        • "Microsoft Dynamics Retail Management System"

          I wonder how many end users have that on their Vista machines? I for one have never heard of it, and I don't think many consumers who use Vista as a desktop OS have either. A quick google search shows that this is more of an enterprisey thing. This goes for the other idiot who posted about how "sheeple" don't know that. Of course "sheeple" (oh you're so mature and superior for calling others sheeple) don't know that, they don't use a Retail Management System.

    • If you don't use that app, besides the general wait period for other bugs to come out there's no reason not to slipstream it since the patch will probably be for the MSDRMS, not a change in Windows. They're just going to change Windows Update to not automatically offer it to people who are using MSRDMS.

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