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Windows 7 Won't Have Compact "MinWin" Kernel
Posted by
kdawson
on Wed May 28, 2008 07:04 AM
from the starting-over-is-hard-to-do dept.
from the starting-over-is-hard-to-do dept.
An anonymous reader points us to an interview Microsoft's Windows 7 development chief, Steven Sinofsky, did with CNet. He reveals that Windows 7 will be a further evolution of Vista, and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. "We're very clear that drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work really well on Windows 7; in fact, they'll work the same. We're going to not introduce additional compatibilities, particularly in the driver model. Windows Vista was about improving those things. We are going to build on the success and the strength of the Windows Server 2008 kernel, and that has all of this work that you've been talking about. The key there is that the kernel in Windows Server 08 is an evolution of the kernel in Windows Vista, and then Windows 7 will be a further evolution of that kernel as well."
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First Details of Windows 7 Emerge 615 comments
Some small but significant details of the next major release of Windows have emerged via a presentation at the University of Illinois by Microsoft engineer Eric Traut. His presentation focuses on an internal project called "MinWin," designed to optimize the Windows kernel to a minimum footprint, and for which will be the basis for the Windows 7 kernel.
Submission: Windows 7 has dropped compact kernel by Anonymous Coward
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hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Insightful)
shall we have a pool as to what will be next?
(and yes I know powershell was released as an addon)
Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Funny)
For Vista, they promised loads of stuff, then stripped most of them out, presumably for a later version.
Thw MinWin kernel has been touted as non-production from the start IIRC, so that at least comes as no surprise at all.
I do wonder what all Windows 7 will not have; I would rather make a list of that.
For instance: WinFS, MinWin, capability to operate with less than half a terabyte of RAM, users... add to the list as needed; maybe after we define what Windows will not have, we can guess at what it will have.
Sadly, I only have bloat on that list so far...
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Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Funny)
These Linux/Mac zealots always have something to complain about. Microsoft stripped that stuff out of Vista to give the users a fast and snappy system everybody could enjoy on any PC. If they kept all those features Vista would have been a real slug instead of the lightning fast OS it is now.
[/sarcasm]
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Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Funny)
Colonel Sanders?
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Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Funny)
But your comment is exactly what I was thinking. We've seen it before, the touting of features on the next-best thing from Redmond, and we were much amused. They were constantly dropping features off the list, up to the point where there really were no technological advancements left in Vista.
They really appear to be doing the same: "The Windows 7 marketing speak will be a further evolution of our experiences with marketing Vista".
(and to the mods: parent should be modded insightful, not funny)
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Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Insightful)
What about the ability to slow down a computer to the point that you need a new computer, so you have to buy a new computer with another copy of Windows preinstalled?
Doesn't that count as a technological advancement?
That said, I still haven't read of a single feature of Vista that would compel me to shell out any more of my hard-earned money.
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Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Informative)
Agreed about Windows for the last ten years, but the new Ubuntu just works. And I am a long-time Windows user that has tinkered with Linux since the 300 MHz days, constantly hearing about how it was the "year of the Linux desktop".
But I had a 1GHz laptop with XP that locked up all the time. I could never find the culprit (probably a driver or IRQ issue). I installed Ubuntu, it found all the hardware automatically, asked me my WAP password and away I went. It's fast and usable now, instead of slow and unreliable.
I don't know any such thing. I was at three companies where everyone was upgraded to XP. People loved XP. Businesses waited for the correct timing in their budget, but there was little doubt that it WOULD be adopted. Vista is universally reviled and most businesses I know are saying that they will NEVER go to it.
I also value my time and have no problem spending a couple hundred on a new OS. But having dealt with Vista and Ubuntu Hardy Heron I would say that Ubuntu is way more hardware compatible and takes far less time to set up and install. And seeing how difficult it is to get software to run on Vista, it won't be long before Linux is more software-compatible as well.
Fully 40% of my software in my business wouldn't run on it without major work (and many of these were Microsoft titles), about 25% never did run at all. Every software install on the test machine was a pray-and-hack affair. It was exactly as if I was trying to get the software to run on Wine or Mono, instead of Windows.
Linux has easily passed Windows in hardware compatibility. Who ever thought we would see that day? Now the attention will go to software compatibility, and when Wine and Mono improve a little bit more, Linux will have the advantage there as well.
And I predict that it will happen before Windows 7 comes out.
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Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Insightful)
Ubuntu failed miserably to work for me.
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Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Funny)
But look at all the DRM technology they built into every layer of the APIs!
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Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Insightful)
shall we have a pool as to what will be next?
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Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Informative)
http://blogs.msdn.com/winfs/archive/2006/06/23/644706.aspx [msdn.com]
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Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Funny)
The Windows database filesystem is something MS has been developing, announcing, and then killing off since the early 90s. It's sort of the Redmond equivalent of a phoenix, or maybe a Terminator.
At this point, I think they sort of *have* to announce it as a feature of every upcoming major version of Windows, only to cut it before the release of the OS. It's a tradition with almost 20 years behind it!
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Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Funny)
I don't know about WinFS being a phoenix or terminator. Those would be effective. I've always pictured each new Windows project as the Black Knight:
"Look, you stupid Bastard. You've got no features left.""Yes I have."
"Look!"
"It's just a flesh wound."
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Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Funny)
You say that like its a problem.
I prefer to consider Windows Vista to be like the overclocked Voodoo quadcore with twin nVidia 8800s I run it on: reassuringly exclusive.
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Cookie at the end of the page - very fitting (Score:5, Insightful)
Guarranteed To Suck (Score:5, Insightful)
Losing small businesses (Score:5, Interesting)
Otherwise, I could be running on OS X for 1 laptop and the PCs would be switched over to Ubuntu or something similiar, maybe RedHat.
Years ago, the internet was hamstringed by many windows only incompatibilities. Firefox evened the playing field there. Most programs were windows only (Quickbooks and Tax Programs can run on Mac now).
Windows grasp in my business is tenuous indeed. Granted, mine is a small business - but aren't many in America?
Plus in Linux, it's simple not to include a webbrowser. You can do the same in Windows, IIRC, (actually just turn it off), but there always seems to be a workaround on firing it up again. Those are one of the biggest productivity killers - my employees should be surfing at home.
It's not that I care about licensing fees, but my operation is too small to hire someone technical who knows how to do everything the right way and I find the Windows boxes need the most babysitting. Time killer = Money Wasted.
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Re:Guarranteed To Suck (Score:5, Interesting)
Good, maintainable, understandable code is now perfectly fast. MS's competitors now have the advantage from a good code bas. Meanwhile, the development process at MS as stagnated. (Remember the story of the shutdown dialog in Vista. Twelve people all working on code various degrees away from the trunk. Not good.)
But I agree with your assessment that MS hasn't delivered on the cool. Apple is eating their lunch in the good looking and working camps. Linux is still king of the UNIX-like environment that seems to be in a Renaissance now. Still, MS has a big install base. They've worked hard to use incompatible file types to build lock-in. The aren't going anywhere for a while.
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Re:Guarranteed To Suck (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Guarranteed To Suck (Score:5, Informative)
That's so so so not my experience in the market.
There's much more demand (as measured by people trying to hire me to use the appropriate technology) currently for my
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Re:Guarranteed To Suck (Score:5, Interesting)
Apple has a chance to beat Windows 7 to the market with an OS that would be absolutely superb. I hope they seize the chance. I fear that their rapid increase in marketshare and product range might make this difficult.
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..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, that follows the pattern.
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Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (Score:5, Interesting)
OTOH, consider this: Windows cannot be fixed without breaking backwards compatibility.
Therefore, in order to offer a new product, the old one should be abandoned, which cannot be done at the present point in time.
Imagine, then, that this possible decline of Windows is actually planned.
We know Microsoft is working on a new Windows kernel, on a wholly new operating system and whatnot... could it be that they are actually planning to lower their market share (thus dodging some anti-trust bullets), and then offer something new and improved, even if it proves to be Unix reinvented?
Or is it too much to expect from a behemoth?
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Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (Score:5, Interesting)
IIRC, Apple did this when they moved from their old OS to their current one and it did wonders to ease the transition while still allowing Apple to break free of the shackles of backwards compatibility.
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doesn't sound promising.. (Score:5, Funny)
What, all five of them?
So the difference is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not only could the average user not find an advantage in Vista over XP (remember, users rarely care what's under the hood, they just want to use the system), now even geeks won't see a difference between the old and the new system?
Ok, let's be constructive. We heard now what will not be different between Vista and "Windows 7". So what will? Because, well, if it's the same... I'm no marketing guru, but I guess even the marketing guys in Redmond might have a hard time selling the same product again.
Re:So the difference is... (Score:5, Funny)
It'll be simple for the marketing drones:
Do you remember the last time you had a steak? A really big, thick juicy steak. Yeah, that was great, wasn't it. That was XP.
And then you remember how it clogged up your colon, and you couldn't do anything for a day or two? That was Vista
And then you remember how it all finally came out, when you spent a half-hour on the can, insides being stretched to Hello.jpg proportions, tears laced with internal-bleeding running down your face, screaming and punching holes in the bathroom drywall, until finally at last everything was right again, and wave of adrenalin-induced euphoria washed over you once the pain was gone, finally gone? That was Vista SP1
Don't you want to experience that wonderful feeling of eventually bliss all over again? Windows 7, coming soon to a colon, urr, computer near you*.
(c)Windows(tm) Marketing(tm) Team(tm) 2008)(tm)
*Steak not included
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Re:So the difference is... (Score:5, Informative)
Do you remember the last time you had a steak? [...]
I don't know where you eat your steak, but if it's doing that to you, you should go somewhere else...
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Some old story... (Score:5, Insightful)
What was that really good filesystem we were going to see in Windows XP, sorry I mean Vista?
Oh right, this time it is because of backwards compatibility, rather then any other reason. But still, people keep saying it, why doesn't MS just dump the crud, go with a great new secure system (MinWin sounded like a good start), and use emulation to support all the old software?
With drivers (the specific reason given here), they could easily have a backwards compatible layer implemented above the microkernal for drivers that needed it.
Meh.
So? (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean, Vista has it's problems, granted, but can any informed person here state what's so bad about the Kernel itself, since that's what's causing all the fuss??
Hmmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Contradiction error (Score:5, Funny)
Bzzt! Logical inconsistency detected! Abort/retry/fail?
MINWIN IS NOT A NEW KERNEL! (Score:5, Informative)
Wait. (Score:5, Insightful)
Could you guys just go back and evolve Windows 2000 instead?
4. Profit! (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Promise the next version will be a geek's wet dream
2. Over the course of the several years of development, slowly step away from each and every major feature
3. Release the new version which is, at best, a minor upgrade from the previous version.
4. Profit!
We are currently at step 2.
Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Vista's mistakes are understandable from a certain point of view.
Really, they should take a major hint from apple. Go ahead and make major transitions, but use virtualization to bridge the gap. Under no circumstances break compatibility.
C//
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Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Funny)
(I'm sorry)
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Compatibility will be Perfect! (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course the drivers and software that run on vista are going to run on Windows 7. Clearly, all they're going to do is rebrand Vista, change some eye candy, and pray it sells thistime around!
They'd be doing it now, but they need to wait long enough that people will believe they've done some actual work on it.
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Re:Compatibility will be Perfect! (Score:5, Funny)
(someone mod me up please)
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Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Am I the only one who's leaving system administration over Vista?
It's being rammed down our throats right now and it's just way too awful. It's actually the reason I'm quitting my sysadmin job and am going back to college for a non-computer related degree this fall.
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Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Computers != Microsoft.
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Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Insightful)
We're rolling it out, even though none of the IT staff (just the manager) wants to. We just see it as being a hassle -- retraining the staff as well as ourselves -- with no real benefit, as all the software anyone needs to use works fine on XP.
Not to mention that we'll now be running an OS which contains code specifically designed to prevent the computer from working. We've already had one system fail to activate using our key management server, and we've only rolled out half a dozen. In a perverse way, I'm actually looking forward to when every desktop is running Vista and then decides it's not activated and nobody can do any work while we try to fix a problem caused by code that shouldn't be there in the first place. A high profile screwup like that could be the death knell for shitty license activation schemes.
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Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Driver compatibility will come with time as people like Nvidia get their act together.
Streamlining Vista can already be done though, it doesn't have to take a lot of resources unless you want all the eye candy and the resources. I think you still have a valid point, with all the work that went into it you would think it would work faster. Personally I don't notice any lag, but I'm running on new hardware.
It remains to be seen what Windows 7 will offer that will redeem it. The vast majority of people see no reason to go to Vista and as a home user I understand their feelings. As a sysadmin though I understand why Vista is the way it is and how it's desirable for a corporate environment.
It's the same basic issue that developed when the 9x line died and everything moved to NT. We can all agree that the NT model is far superior to the old real-mode model. The problem is that you have a business optimized OS being pushed on home users, in an attempt to make the home users happier you screw the business users and you end up with Vista where no one is happy.
Of course if the whole thing was more modular then it would be less of an issue. Then Microsoft would be doing what the Unix world has been doing for 40 years and what Apple caught on to a few years ago.
Big companies take a long time to adapt though, look how long it took IBM to recover from a failing business model, almost 10 years. I think Windows 7 will be Microsoft's wake-up call if Vista isn't already. Execs have a habit of being hard-headed about stupid things though so I wouldn't be surprised if that was holding things up.
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Re:Cynical First Post (Score:5, Informative)
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