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Bill Gates Chews Out Microsoft
Posted by
samzenpus
on Thu Jun 26, 2008 06:57 AM
from the you-wouldn't-like-him-when-he's-angry dept.
from the you-wouldn't-like-him-when-he's-angry dept.
s31523 writes "All of us have one time or another been completely frustrated by certain Windows usability issues, and in many cases our experiences have driven us over to Linux, or kept us there. For anyone that has ever been frustrated, you will be happy to know you aren't the only one. After reading this leaked Microsoft memo from Bill Gates back in 2003, you will surely have more insight into why Vista is a complete disaster due to Microsoft not learning anything from their experiences from XP."
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Your Rights Online: A Real Bill Gates Rant 293 comments
lou ibmix XI submitted an
email written by Bill Gates a few years ago and turned over to the feds as part of the government's antitrust case. Great quotes like 'Someone decided to trash the one part of Windows that was usable?' and 'The lack of attention to usability represented by these experiences blows my mind.' We like to think of him as an abstract, but I think this is interesting stuff. Also, this might seem familiar. Oops.
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Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Interesting)
Interestingly enough, Gates could have really improved his image during his tenure at Microsoft if he let emails like that "leak" out prior to stepping down. Instead, he gives keynotes about Microsoft and its "innovation."
First, I am not sure that email is really by Gates -- from reading his writing or listening to him in the past, it really does not sound like his style. Also, "I reboot my computer ... why should I have to reboot my computer?" I find it hard to realize that he wouldn't know the technical difficulties in replacing a dll while the system is running, and possible ways around this, and the current state of affairs. However, maybe I'm giving too much credit here.
Secondly, *if you can't do anything about this crap, then stop releasing it on time and FIX THE ISSUES* instead of releasing it to the world for millions of users to suffer under your monopoly. If your software sucks, fix the problems instead of using oppressive business practices to make *everybody* suffer.
Next, people complain about Linux usability? apt-get install mplayer k3b, etc? It is not harder, just different. In fact, having all of the software most people need in one place makes Linux easier for most people in many ways, specifically the way that possible-Bill rants about here.
Whenever I have listen to Gates talk or talked to him (many, many years ago now, in the late 90's) he seems more than aware of problems with his product, and I always get this vibe "I'm doing it because I can and it is really, really, really good for business and nobody is stopping me." If any of you were following the USDOJ against Microsoft way back before the Bush-era forgiveness, Microsoft was going to be split into three companies. When Bill was on the stand, he basically went "I don't remember" to every possibly incriminating statement, but was clearly aware of the bad ethics of what he was doing -- again, reading between the lines I always got the vibe of the triumphant geek saying "I'm not going to stop until you guys get your act together and make me stop."
He's not a stupid guy that way, and anybody that respects billionaires must ask themselves if they would do the same things with a company to maintain market share... Personally, I like to think I wouldn't, but that's why I am not a CEO.
Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Interesting)
but try installing an app that plays podcasts WITHOUT KNOWING that democracyplayer and VLC play podcasts.
I went to add/remove and typed podcast in the search.
When sorted by popularity:
1) rythmbox music player, play and orginize your music collection. I bet this works for audio podcasts
2) Miro Internet TV, Watch online videa.
details:
Miro (previously known as Democracy Player) is a platform for Internet television and video. It allows you to download and watch videos from RSS feeds (including podcasts, video blogs, and BitTorrent feeds).
This application is provided by the Ubuntu community.
I bet that's what I would pick.
Of course gpodder 2 further down may have been my choice (it mentions audio and video podcasts in the brief description).
I would never have used vlc though, I use it daily, and didn't realize it did podcasts.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm pretty sure that very, very few people have ever used Add/Remove Programs in Windows to add a program, since the people who would need that kind of assistance would have Autorun turned on anyway, so the install program would launch when they put the CD in, long before the Add/Remove Programs dialog finishes loading.
Hence, Add/Remove Programs in Windows is really just Remove Programs. And considering that 3rd party tools (e.g., Revo Uninstaller, etc.) do a better job of actually completely removing programs, it really doesn't even do that very well.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Funny)
"What is a totem and WTF does it have to do with playing media?"
What's a Google?
What's a Yahoo!?
What's a WinAmp?
What's a Slashdot?
What's a Firefox?
What's an eBay?
What's a NewEgg?
What's a Lightwave?
What's a Nero?
What's an Outlook Express?
What's a Visual Studio?
What's an AutoCAD?
With names like these, no one will ever use them.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Funny)
Ooo...this is too much fun...
Thank you! I'll be here all week. Try the veal.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Funny)
Either that or it injects music into your eyeballs.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Informative)
or enter "podcast" as a search term in your GUI software installation tool. How hard is this? Certainly easier than strolling through dozens of software shops or dredging the web
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Interesting)
How do you "know what you're looking for" without searching the web exactly?
It's worth noting that Microsoft would love nothing more than to bundle as many free utilities as they could, but their hands are tied thanks to those who whined to the DOJ.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
That's exactly what I said. Finding the product is the same on Windows and Linux, but at least Linux *has* the index and package manager right there, so it's no worse.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Informative)
That's exactly what I said. Finding the product is the same on Windows and Linux, but at least Linux *has* the index and package manager right there, so it's no worse.
Umm, under Linux the software is 99% OSS and downloadable and fully functional - the most you have to go through is agreeing to a EULA. You search under yum, apt-get, emerge, etc... find the description you want, install and use...
Under Windows, you search and sort through *AT LEAST* 50% commercial/shareware packages that are crippled until you purchase it.
The last time I tried this, I went through 1/2 dozen apps, and dozens of websites to just burn a cd image quickly/easily...
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is precisely why so many people end up pirating software like that. Sadly, it's much quicker and more convenient to just download the first crippled software that does what you want, then find a key to un-cripple it than it is to actually keep looking for a free one. And you know there's no way in hell the average geek (or most other people for that matter) is going to pay $50 for some small program he might never use more than once.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
How do you "know what you're looking for" without searching the web exactly?
It's worth noting that Microsoft would love nothing more than to bundle as many free utilities as they could, but their hands are tied thanks to those who whined to the DOJ.
Why is searching the web a problem? If I need to find an app in Linux that does whatever. Almost always searching: "Linux <whatever I want to do>" will give me at least 1 or 2 applications that do that. I could in fact replace Linux with KDE, Gnome or XFCE depending on which DE I'm using.
And to say the one shouldn't have to search for an application to run is absurd. No one is born knowing which applications do what in Windows, they learn either from searching or asking someone. Which is what they would do in Linux too.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
You do understand, of course, that KDE, Gnome, and XFCE are windows managers and not operating systems right?
He was trying to say, he can search for "Gnome " in a search engine just as easily. The difference being, if he finds something interesting, he can use a package manager to install it and get to work.
If he was using, say, Windows, he'd most likely download an install file, run it through a virus scanner, execute it, click 15 different buttons, have his personal information sent to some corporate server, get nagged to buy the upgraded version, download a crack, run it through a virus scanner, execute it, have a rootkit installed, have 10 different pieces of spyware installed, have his personal information sent to some criminals server, be bombarded with pornographic popups, throw his computer out the window, go outside for a cigarette with hands shaking in rage and smash his head off the nearest wall until the endorphins cause him to forget why he was so upset.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Informative)
Not only that, but you use the term "window managers", which is just ironic, as only one of the 3 is a window manager.
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Re:The bundle without a key (Score:5, Informative)
A cute phrase and an oft-repeated anecdote, but according to people at Lotus, it's completely false [proudlyserving.com].
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
But they don't know what those apps are for because of their name, they learned their function first, and then they learned their name. Ask somebody who doesn't know what Excel is what they think it does, and you won't get anything close to a spreadsheet.
A better example would be to ask 100 random people what Visio does, probably less than half could tell you.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, every once in a while I see these kinds of posts. I really don't know what to say.
I've been using Linux for more then 10 years. I've installed it on pc's from 386's to modern multicore servers with 4x cpus. I've got an office full of workstations running Kubuntu that are used every day, some 24x7x365. In all these years, and the hundreds of pc's I've installed some version of Linux on, I have NEVER, EVER seen ANYTHING like what this and some other posts mention. I've seen the install crap out in the middle due to a bad cd burn. I've seen incompatible hardware. I've seen qwerks with some chipsets that required a custom boot parameter to work. But this wholesale failure I have never seen. Ever.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe, but then again he still had to work there and keep the company working effectively. If this stuff had leaked out to everyone in the company, who knows what it would have done for morale? Keeping this kind of stuff in the family is often the best thing to do for the family.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait... is it really possible that we should give Gates some credit for acting responsibly?
I agree with you on the writing style, but you never know, since this was an internal document, and people use different writing styles for different purposes. I'd also note that when knowleadgeable people do usability testing, they normally feign ignorance -- they test as if they were a user with limited knowledge.
I'm not upper management, but I've sent (and seen) similar emails when a prject went FUBAR.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
Reading the letter, it really doesn't sound like anything Gates would say. He's not an end user. As you said, he certainly should know why rebooting would be necessary when updating part of the OS.
That being said, Gates has nothing to worry about in regard to his personal reputation. There is no need for him to "talk himself up". Outside of the slashdot community and certain parts of the tech industry, he is highly regarded as a successful businessman and as a philanthropist.
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Informative)
The letter is from the antitrust files, so it's certified.
The very interesting thing is that there is no single person at Microsoft who has the final say on how all of there stuff interacts together. Not even Bill has that clout (and if he did, he sucked at his job).
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Maybe you think too much of the difficulties... (Score:5, Insightful)
First, I am not sure that email is really by Gates -- from reading his writing or listening to him in the past, it really does not sound like his style. Also, "I reboot my computer ... why should I have to reboot my computer?" I find it hard to realize that he wouldn't know the technical difficulties in replacing a dll while the system is running, and possible ways around this, and the current state of affairs. However, maybe I'm giving too much credit here.
What he is probably alluding to is the fact that every other operating system under the sun (Linux, Sun, SPARC, Mac OSX, BSD) can replace 95% of the OS without rebooting. Only windows requires you to reboot to do something stupid like replace a DLL. I can overwrite any .SO in my OS without rebooting - this is something the UNix world figured out a long time ago (deref the file pointer, write the new file. People using the old pointer can continue to do so, newly started apps use the new pointer. Once install of software is complete, restart software impacted).
The only thing that should require a reboot is replacing the kernel itself or a low-level IO driver.
Parent
Re:Then STOP releasing the product! (Score:5, Insightful)
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My God... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's such a loaded and flamebait-ridden summary it's not even funny. Linux has plenty of usability issues, just like Windows - the quirks are just in different places.
Still, assuming the email is real of course, it's always nice to see the boss appreciate the problems from the regular user's perspective.
Re:My God... (Score:5, Insightful)
Still, assuming the email is real of course, it's always nice to see the boss appreciate the problems from the regular user's perspective.
I was thinking the same - posting this story on /. is calling for the usual Microsoft bashing, but if the mail's real we should congratulate Gates. We need more bosses putting themselves on the end user shoes.
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Re:My God... (Score:5, Insightful)
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He didn't say to not sell it (Score:5, Funny)
q: How do you make a billion dollars?
a: no matter who complains about how crappy the new version of your product is, force its purchase onto your captive audience anyhow. Yay!
I thought this was a joke until I read this part.. (Score:5, Informative)
Wow! I thought this was a joke until I read this part
Re:I thought this was a joke until I read this par (Score:5, Funny)
Or anything else that you can wedge between those two parts and still have it make some kind of sense.
This could go in Mad Magazine - they do a feature like this regularly. Here are some more choices (pick one from each)
There's not a day that I don't send a piece of e-mail
[after I've smoked 5 joints | praising Satan | from my Mac Book | blasting the idiots who work for me | bidding on a small island nation | trying to destroy slashdot ]
but
[only an idiot would think I wrote something | I've never been stoned enough to write anything | the PI reporter must have been really blasted to make up dreck | only my evil twin writes | Steve Jobs was in my office and sent out a bunch of stuff]
like that piece of e-mail.
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The scary part (Score:5, Interesting)
At the end of the piece, it says,
Maybe the competent MS employees have long ago committed harakiri in shame, and whoever's left Just Don't Care...
Its real. Here are the links (Score:5, Interesting)
The originial article: http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/141821.asp [nwsource.com]
Here are the responses from within Microsoft: http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/library/2003Jangatesmoviemaker.pdf [nwsource.com]
Re:Its real. Here are the links (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Its real. Here are the links (Score:5, Informative)
Here, Knock yourself out [edge-op.org]
The specific exhibit (7199) is found near here [edge-op.org]
And if you doubt me (after all, who is this xtracto guy), the page is linked from groklaw [groklaw.net]. Maybe they are more thrustworthy than myself?
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Gates, you have to do this differently (Score:5, Funny)
Another rant by Microsoft-hater, who cares? (Score:5, Funny)
This billg guy is a known troll that bashes Windows at every opportunity. Remember him showing off Windows 95 and publicly making it bluescreen in front of an audience?
Microsoft has company (Score:5, Insightful)
For God's sake...if I want to setup a printer, it should be the system's job to install ALL software needed to get it working. What is so difficult in that?
Let me remind the author of that line that we Linux users have still not made a dent on the desktop market. I can say, we are economically insignificant. This is despite perceived flaws in Windows. And by the way, Bill Gates was not frustrated over Windows in particular...he appears to have been frustrated by confusing names and un-necessary questions on the Windows website.
Assume it's real... so what? (Score:5, Insightful)
What we have here is the boss complaining about the design of their own product. How is this news?
Is it only news because the slashdot kiddies find any reason to laugh at MS? Or is is news because no other company CEO ever complains about any products their company produces?
I have a dirty secret to admit. I have received an email from the big boss in the past complaining about features implemented by a product we produce. I feel dirty, obviously I'm in the minority. If I submit it to Slashdot, do you think it will make the front page?
If it's really him... (Score:5, Funny)
then this is the one of the best lines ever!
Real. Life. Dilbert.
Re:100% fake (Score:5, Informative)
That is NOT Gate's writing style and there are several mistakes as well that point to someone other than gates wrote the letter.
"I go to microsoft.com they have a download center" HUH? Cince when does the Head executive of the company refer to the company as "they" instead of "we"? I have never seen it even down to the grunt level.
This "secret memo" is bunk. it is in no way Bill Gates' writing.
Parent
Re:100% fake (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a PDF of the original, together with the replies, as submitted to the trial.
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/library/2003Jangatesmoviemaker.pdf [nwsource.com]
Parent
Keep in mind... (Score:5, Insightful)
...that the guy was pissed off, and trying to point out usability issues the average Joe would have. I'm sure he knows how to get his operating system and websites (well maybe not websites, MS sites are largely a mess in my experience) to do what he wants, but the vast majority of Windows users aren't experts and would get fed up very quickly at running the gamut of crap in the Windows Update process (and rightly so) or trying to trick an MS website into turning up the information they want (my approach is to use Google instead of the MS site search tool). In fact I would say his email, while perhaps poorly written (as most pissed-off emails are), is quite insightful in that sense. He picked out the things that would piss of Granny Web Surfer instead of suffering through it because he understood the complex things going on in the background. When WinUpdate basically forced him to restart, he didn't think "Well I guess this is reasonable, the new DLLs have to load on startup and the new applications are dependent on them," as most of us would, he thought "Who wants to restart in the middle of the update process!? This is a load of crap!"
Thinking like a common user makes user-friendly programs.
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Re:100% fake (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:100% fake (Score:5, Informative)
The email is real. It's in the court documents from the Comes vs Microsoft case. You can find it in PX07199.pdf from http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/7000/
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Re:It's a FAAAAAAAAKE! (Score:5, Informative)
Don't you feel silly now after that pointless rant that it turns out to be real and part of the released court documents from the Comes vs Microsoft case?
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Re:website rant (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a rant about micrsoft.*com* - the website (and related update sites etc). It isn't about Microsoft itself, or its applications and operating systems. It's about the usability of the microsoft.com website and download services - which are probably largely outsourced to a few kids in India. It has nothing to do with "how bad Vista is" or lessons learned from XP.
So no, other than about half of the email, it has nothing to do with XP.
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Re:What am I doing wrong? (Score:5, Insightful)
My guess would be that your perspective is somehow twisted by a superior knowledge and/or appreciation for Windows.
For example:
Likewise, you may not have ever had occasion to experience some of the particularly common nasties:
You may have never lost a motherboard - otherwise you would have experienced the painful fight-the-bluescreen vs reinstall decision.
You may not have used IE 4 (or 5, or 6) as suggested by Windows - otherwise the pop-ups and spyware would have created a mess you would have had to clean up by now.
You may not have automatic updates turned on - otherwise you would have been forced to do an undesired reboot at least once by now.
You may have disabled UAC, or never used Vista at all - otherwise you would have been prompted as many as four times to approve the same action.
You may not ever Alt+Tab in Vista - otherwise you would have seen 'Explorer is not responding' at least once by now...
The list goes on and on and on...
Chances are, either your skills are high enough that none of the above is painful, or you just plain don't mind it - taking the good with the bad.
Others are in a totally different boat, my friend, I assure you.
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