Slashdot Log In
Fresh Air For Windows?
Posted by
timothy
on Sun Jun 29, 2008 07:10 PM
from the reinvention dept.
from the reinvention dept.
jmcbain writes "The NY Times has an opinion piece on how the next Windows could be designed (even through Microsoft has already laid plans for Windows 7). The author suggests 'A monolithic operating system like Windows perpetuates an obsolete design. We don't need to load up our machines with bloated layers we won't use.' He also brings up the example of Apple breaking ties with its legacy OS when OS X was built. Can Windows move forward with a completely new, fast, and secure OS and still keep legacy application support?"
Related Stories
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
heh, normal version (Score:5, Informative)
Short answer: no (Score:5, Funny)
Can Windows move forward with a completely new, fast, and secure OS and still keep legacy application support?
Based on past performance: No.
This has been another edition of Short Answers to Stupid Quesitons.
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, indeed ;)
Or they could, like, ditch all their work done so far, fork wine and make the new OS run on top of linux+wine, possibly off a sqlite-based WinFS ;)
Then just port their platform libraries onto that, redo their visual tools as eclipse plugins -- and presto, you have best of both worlds.
And fast ;)
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Insightful)
Move to a nix-y kernel, release a full
I suspect they'd introduce/keep their own API, though. I wouldn't expect X Windows to be bundled with (let's say) "Windows X"; they likely would use the transition to more strongly push Windows Forms over the older system, though.
And of course, don't expect their addons to be Open Source, even if they do adopt the Linux kernel.
In short, see OS/X.
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows NT was a re-write of OS/2 when Microsoft divorced IBM (or vice versa, depending on whom you believe). It started a new code branch, one that ran in 32-bit only (advanced at the time) and inter-version compatibility was often iffy at best-- NOT mostly compatible.
These two code branches merged at Windows 2000.
I smell a rat behind the entire thing. Windows 7 might be a hypervisor with plug-ins for whatever. I think Microsoft is floating trial ballons to see what might be marketable after the enormous and embarrassing mistakes found in Vista. It's an actual, along with a PR nightmare for them and justifiably so. Were I a stockholder, I'd have their heads.
Don't mistake for a moment that Microsoft is still seeking solutions to the enormous problems they have in stagnation. Vista was supposed to be a monumental endeavor, and it's a monumental disaster for them. Now that BIll's gone, who knows what's going to happen.
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Informative)
If by "These two code branches" you are referring to NT and Windows 9x, you are off by a release. They merged with XP, not 2000.
Parent
Sorry, but (Score:5, Informative)
No. The code bases were to merge at Windows 2000 Professional. Windows 95/98/ME were based on DOS. Win2K was the merge point at server and 'desktop'. XP came after Win2K, sealing the fate. At Vista, support for 8/16-bit code using DOS functionality essentially died. Try Duke Nukem II if you're unsure.
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Insightful)
It may be dangerous to reason by historical analogy, because the hardware situation is qualitatively different now. CPUs are no longer showing the kind of Moore's-law growth in power that they used to. Meanwhile ram and hard disks are ridiculously cheap. For the typical user who just uses a computer for websurfing, email, and word-processing, it's kind of silly to spend any significant amount of money on a new system. They already have more ram and disk space than they need, and the CPU isn't going to be that much faster. We're seeing perfectly reasonable desktop hardware now for $200, and it won't be long until you can get that same hardware for $50.
If I was one of the people at the helm of Microsoft, I'd be really worried about this, because when the hardware is $50, there's not going to be much room left for profit on the OS. Most retailers have been reluctant to sell cheap hardware, because their own margins on it are thin, but it's just a matter of time until that changes. Fry's sold $200 Great-Quality-brand machines for years, and WalMart is now selling the gPC online for $200. Once people realize that they can get a computer for $100, or $50, the dam is going to have to break, and retailers are no longer going to be able to sell machines at prices of $500 or $1000. It's going to be like the transition from the radio as a big wooden box to the transistor radio that you could carry with you to the beach, and throw in a dumpster if it got sand and water in it.
In this new landscape, there's very little reason for MS to exist. One of the few reasons left for them to exist is that people have money invested in software, and they don't want to have to buy new software. The insane success of the eeePC -- and even at much higher prices than they originally thought they could get --- shows how vulnerable MS is. There are a lot of users out there who just use their computers for word-processing, email, and websurfing. Maybe first they buy a $50 Linux box for their kid to use to write her high school papers. That works out okay, and pretty soon the kid is like, "Mom, are you crazy? You're talking about spending $400 for a new computer? Just buy one like mine."
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Insightful)
It is already beginning. I submit the EEpc, OLPC, and the sudden burst of real computers with real OS''s being shipped for under $400 right now Windows is holding back more development than anything else, especially with the intel atom processor. sorry you can't get a $100 OS onto a $400 device.
why do you think msft is still selling XP for only low powered devices that Vista couldn't run on if it went on a diet. Why do you think MSFT is intentionally trying to limit the specs of such devices when they are already as powerful as any computer of 6 years ago?
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Insightful)
Erm, when did CPUs stop showing exponential growth in performance? Was that a memo that nobody sent to Intel [intel.com]?
Although clockspeeds are stuck because it is no longer economical to raise them, performance and transistor density are still scaling at the same rate. If anything we are in a period of performance increases that is slightly above trend, because now that the horrific NetBurst ISA has been killed off the Core2 replacement is rather lovely. Clock-for-clock it runs twice as fast as the old ISA because of shorter pipeline stages that have reduced instruction latency, and so far Intel have doubled the number of cores every 18 months. Given that they are ready to scale up to new fabs that can handle 2B transistors I would assume that they can continue to do so for the near future.
It would be a seismic shift for the industry if processor performance flatlined but I don't see that happening for a long time. What we are seeing with the introduction of the Eee Pc et al is actually a trend that has been going on for decades. Roughly every ten years a new form factor is introduced at the bottom of the market, with the same performance, but with the price halving each time.
So although your analysis of what changes are happening is way off, your final paragraph is quite accurate about what it means. The amount of performance that people actually require for most day-to-day tasks was exceeded when processors passed the Ghz mark. Now we are seeing cheaper and cheaper devices that deliver that (roughly) constant power. The effect on Microsoft is likely to be as you predict.
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Interesting)
Sort of like what Apple did with OS 9/OS X?
If so, the trouble with that might be that the legacy OS (Win XP or Vista) is so large that the legacy OS portion would double the size of the installation. If I recall correctly, the OS 9 support in OS X only added 400 MB to the installation, as OS 9 itself wasn't that large. What was really nice about it was that it could easily be removed if you didn't need the legacy support.
(I may be wrong in my size estimates or misunderstand the OS 9 legacy support, as I moved from Windows XP to OS X when Tiger was released and have little experience with OS 9.)
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Insightful)
Memory requirements might matter; but since we're looking at release two years from now, then 2GB is a reasonable requirement. If they base the "compatibility" code on XP rather than Vista, then it might be viable.
The biggest problem I see is what to tell people right now. Saying, "oh yeah, the next version of Windows will be completely different" is not likely to go down well, and is unlikely to encourage anyone to "upgrade" to Vista prior to Windows 7. But saying "Windows 7 will be based on Vista" isn't particularly inspiring either!
The marketing solution will likely be to not really give any concrete answers for as long as possible whilst telling people Windows 7 will build on their existing investment. If they don't do this, people might start looking elsewhere!!
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Informative)
Commercial versions of VMware allow multiple snapshots. The version you refer to is the freeware version.
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple's policy is to provide approximately 100% transparent support ONE version back. They did an incredible job with classic (supporting OS 9 in OS X) and an even better job in the transition with rosetta. (supporting ppc on intel)
While it was fairly obvious you were running an OS 9 app in classic, almost no one notices a rosetta app running on an intel. Now notice, intels do NOT support classic. That's their "one hop" rule at work. And you can bet their next big one will drop support for powerpc.
So this can be done, but it's hard to get right. But when you get it right, nobody notices. And that's a good thing.
This is a bit like Windows. The problem they've had is that there's a lot more transition from dos to 95 to 98 to 2000 to xp to vista. None of those was entirely pleasant, and none of them were very transparent. Only half of them provided major new features, but all of them clung to numerous existing problems. So in the same timeframe, Apple has made just two massive leaps, with less "transition shock" in their two bumps that windows has seen in their five. The interim transitions (os 8 to os 9, 10.1 all the way to 10.5 really) were almost completely transparent.
They've got a lesson to learn here. XP probably would have been a good time to do a "major bump" such as mac did with 9 to X, but they dropped the ball. They chose to break less, but to fix less as a consequence. Eventually they have to bite the bullet and fix as many of the underlying design problems as they possibly can in one fell swoop. It's going to break stuff. Maybe a lot of stuff. But if they could provide something like Apple did with classic support for OS 9, it wouldn't be so bad. Apple proved that it's not necessary to just totally break all your old software if you can provide decent emulated support for your previous OS inside the new one, invisibly.
Sadly I don't see this happening with Windows anytime soon. Microsoft has never had a knack for making those internal transparent emulators like classic and rosetta. Unless they can get something like this together, it's either going to continue to be a wreck, or it's going to be a disastrous pill to swallow. Continuing to try to make these "baby step" fixes is going to drive the world crazy.
Parent
Re:Short answer: no (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm definitely a big fan of Apple stuff and am likely more tolerant of the small bugs that come out from Cupertino, but I think many people here are missing the big picture: Windows is all about compatibility. That's why a business might spend millions of dollars developing apps on Windows, because they can milk that cow for a long time afterwards. Vista is a significant enough break from Windows XP that many businesses don't want to switch because it means a potentially lower bottom line. Windows has incredible software inertia, while the Mac really doesn't. Comparing Mac OS and Windows is, well, comparing apples to oranges.
Basically, if your bottom line depends upon a very slowly moving software architecture, then Vista is probably a bad thing. Making big changes, on the other hand, makes things potentially easier for Microsoft as there is less legacy and code can be refactored given years of experience.
Parent
Time to Get Rid of The Gates Borg Icon (Score:5, Insightful)
Now that Bill Gates is retired from Microsoft, the editors should get with the times and lose that dated, painfully unfunny logo they use for Microsoft.
Most people probably wouldn't get the Borg reference to begin with, and now Bill Gates era at MS is officially in the past.
Only MS gets this ridiculous logo..now its finally the time they get rid of it.
Re:Time to Get Rid of The Gates Borg Icon (Score:5, Funny)
I vote for a chair breaking a Window :D
No, I'm serious. Get a picture from the Microsoft Headquarters, and from a building, add a chair breaking a window and falling to the floor. Cartoonize it, and you're done! :)
Parent
Re:Time to Get Rid of The Gates Borg Icon (Score:5, Funny)
How about a dancing egg'ed Steve Ballmer who is throwing a chair? :)
Parent
Challenge accepted (Score:5, Funny)
Is that a challenge?
Static [imageshack.us]
Animated GIF [imageshack.us]
Parent
Re:Time to Get Rid of The Gates Borg Icon (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Time to Get Rid of The Gates Borg Icon (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Time to Get Rid of The Gates Borg Icon (Score:5, Funny)
That icon is there for legacy purposes.
Parent
The "7" refers to nothing in particular (Score:5, Informative)
Actually it stands for Windows NT 7.0. Here's a quick run-down:
NT 3.1
NT 3.5
NT 3.51
NT 4.0
NT 5.0 (aka Windows 2000)
NT 5.1 (aka Windows XP)
NT 5.2 (aka Windows 2003)
NT 6.0 (aka Windows Vista/2008)
No (Score:5, Insightful)
As someone who started developing applications for Windows in 1991 and stopped around 1999, I doubt it. Better let legacy applications (and the whole x86 mess too, BTW) fade away, they have gone far beyond their useful life.
Not gonna work / we already have it (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple could do that because they were much smaller than Microsoft, and had a small but relatively loyal customer base, and their rewrite did pay off, as people are generally very happy with OS X and don't care about the incompatibility with OS 9 and older anymore.
Microsoft has a huge userbase with much less loyalty, and generally a huge existing investment in software.
We don't need a MS Windows rewrite, we've already got Ubuntu, because that's essentially what the article author wants: an operating system that Just Works[tm], even at the expense of compatibility. That's a pretty good description of any popular Linux distribution.
Re:Not gonna work / we already have it (Score:5, Informative)
I would add that Apple did not do a full rewrite but, instead, adopted a stable, mature and very sophisticated OS from NeXT. Apart from that, OSX is very different from the classic MacOS and deeply incompatible. Any compatibility had to be bolted on its top.
Microsoft has nothing like it and will not buy an OS outside.
Or they could just grab any flavor of BSD, close it, build a Win32 susbsystem on top of it and sell it as Windows 8. They already did that with a TCP/IP stack.
Parent
Windows done right from the ground up (Score:5, Funny)
WinCE. Pity about the name, though.
They should make a concerted effort to drop legacy (Score:5, Insightful)
To me it's always been an excuse to keep windows bloated, and not actually any effort to keep old software functional.
Re:They should make a concerted effort to drop leg (Score:5, Interesting)
Are we not in the time where everyone and their brother is using virtual machines? It would seem that MS should relegate legacy support to virtual machines instead. They have the source code so they could "easily" create a VM (or some very transparent layer that makes it look like its running natively) for each version they've ever sold.
Then they can do whatever they want and just keep the VM layers up-to-date.
I surely can't be the first to think of this...
Parent
Yes, it's been done before (Score:5, Informative)
Windows NT had an emulation layer that handled 16-bit apps. OS X had Rosetta and the Classic environments. And Microsoft now owns Virtual PC.
They have the technology to make Windows a clean OS with emulation errors for doing whatever legacy OS you want. They just seem too lazy to do it.
Fluff piece (Score:5, Insightful)
He really doesn't know anything about the internals of the Windows kernel or the Mach kernel, he's just assuming that since the NT kernel is "monolithic" and the Mach kernel is a "microkernel" then the latter must be better, and the reason it's better is it is "smaller."
If you want to know where the real problems with Windows lie, they're in the API and the shell, not the kernel. The NT kernel is perfectly fine. See this Ars write-up by someone knowlegeable:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/what-microsoft-could-learn-from-apple.ars [arstechnica.com]
I'd like to point out that Microsoft employs one of the original authors of the Mach kernel, Rick Rashid. He runs Microsoft Research. Look it up.
Re:Fluff piece (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd like to point out that Microsoft employs one of the original authors of the Mach kernel, Rick Rashid. He runs Microsoft Research. Look it up.
Being put in MS 'Research' is the kiss of death if you want to make something that MS will ship. They seem to hire those brilliant people and give them massive funding only to keep them happy and prevent them from working for a competitor who might want to actually SHIP something brilliant they would come up with. Rather like IBM, only substitute incompetence in place of amorality as motivation.
Parent
Re:Fluff piece (Score:5, Informative)
The Microsoft Research site [microsoft.com] has a page on product contributions that have come from MS Research [microsoft.com].
Parent
Re:Fluff piece (Score:5, Insightful)
The Ars Technica piece is interesting, but I'm pretty skeptical about this whole idea of making radical changes in Windows and breaking backward-compatibility.
One thing you have to keep in mind is that there's a huge downside for the user when you break backward-compatibility. Apple actually did an amazing job of maintaining backward-compatibility when they made the switch from 68000 to powerpc, but when they brought out MacOS X, the backward compatibility was lousy. You could still run classic apps on X, but they typically worked very poorly -- some features wouldn't work, apps would crash, and it took a really long time to start up the classic environment. Essentially Apple expected you to buy all new applications. Then Apple kept on bringing out frequent point-upgrades to MacOS X, and every single one cost a significant amount of money. My wife bought one of the early lamp-shaped iMacs, and we stayed on the upgrade treadmill for a while, but it really got old spending money every six months or so for a new version of the OS, so at this point we're still running an old version of MacOS on that (expensive) machine. Now we basically can't run any new software, because it only works on newer versions of MacOS X.
It's also worth looking at it from MS's point of view. They're a monopoly, and their interest is in keeping users sucking at the tit. Maintaining backward compatibility has worked very well for them. One of the main things keeping Windows users from jumping ship for another OS is that they know their apps will continue to work. It's actually kind of amazing. I tech at a community college, and some of my colleagues are still using an old DOS shareware planetarium app. It still runs on Windows XP.
Parent
Sure they can! (Score:5, Funny)
Just switch to Mac and get parallels :P
Yeah, I know, not very funny. But does every comment have to be great?
Die Monkey Boy (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Die Monkey Boy (Score:5, Insightful)
Precisely. Other OSes are designed to be used, while Windows is designed to be sold.
Parent
Re:Wine? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Wine? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Wine? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:frist pawst (Score:5, Funny)
I would argue that the New York Times is better qualified to write an OS than Microsoft is...
Parent
Re:Existing legacy support. Wait, what? (Score:5, Informative)
Any software that was created in the past few years which vista 'broke' were most likely poorly designed or were associated with managing or doing the functions expected of the OS itself (with a few exceptions.)
Vista really isn't that 'buggy.' It is top heavy and uses way too much resources if you are only using it for limited things, but as a general purpose OS it really isn't that bad. I would still prefer Windows XP on new computers simply because I can get away with more power with a smaller investment in hardware, but I'm not necessarily 'against' Vista.
Parent
Re:Existing legacy support. Wait, what? (Score:5, Interesting)
Bashing Vista has become like pouring hot grits on Natalie Portman around here. It's just a meme anymore. It was funny for awhile but now it's just old.
Vista really isn't all that bad. I still have XP machines (and Linux, and OS X, and Solaris, and OS/2 even) but I don't mind my Vista machine at all. I also run a lot of old apps on it just fine.
Parent
Re:Existing legacy support. Wait, what? (Score:5, Informative)
Having run Vista32 on this laptop when new, and just recently moved to Vista X64, I agree.
I turned most of the "eye candy" off on 32 bit, but 64 doesn't seem to get bogged down nearly as bad with the eye candy turned on. NOTHING else was changed, only the OS.
Anywho, yes, Vista is fine. Pisses me off that I can't run Win16 apps on Win64 (like, install C&C, for instance), but oh well.
I think I'll try 64 bit linux next.. Never tried a 64 bit rev... Any suggestions? I've always run Slackware since my first install, but it's not always the most "hardware friendly". It's a HP DV2000 based laptop, x64 1 gig ram.
--Toll_Free
Parent
Re:Existing legacy support. Wait, what? (Score:5, Interesting)
If only I had mod points today... ;-)
Seriously, I'm not a fan of MS by any standards but I have Vista installed on my desktop box and it annoys me less than XP on my laptop does. It's not a bad OS really and good enough for me not to scrub it and install Linux instead. Years ago, I couldn't stand Windows and always hosed the HD so I could put Mandrake or Debian on, but now I find Vista to easily be good enough.
Parent
Re:oh come on (Score:5, Insightful)
-A file manager - There is Thunar in Xubuntu, Nautilus in Ubuntu and Konqueror in Kubuntu
-A web browser - Firefox
-Multiple filesystem support - Ubuntu can read/write more filesystems then Windows can
-Most extensive driver library in existence - Except for the fact that on 90% of hardware I can get Ubuntu to get everything to work out-of-the box except for proprietary drivers for ATI/nVidia cards and Ubuntu makes that easy, Windows is a pain to install without like 10 driver CDs or an OEM restore disk
-Office tools like Mail, WordPad, Calendar, Calculator, Contacts, Paint? - Thunderbird, OOo, a calendar program, a calculator program, various contacts programs and The GIMP
-Full command line environment (DOS) - Full UNIX shell (BASH) -Complete media architecture in DirectX.. that's DirectSound DirectInput -has Linux equivalents though I can't think of them off the top of my head -DirectDraw.. a LOT of big packages if it was Linux. Also Windows Media Player/Photo Gallery - Totem/Amarok for WMP
-Graphics APIs and rendering engines -Again, found on Linux
-Remote desktop - VNC/SSH
-Labyrinthe configuration utilities and applets -Don't really know what that is, a Wiki search returned nothing -Monster domain features.. detailed ACLs on every resource, complex user permissions, domain controls enforced on clients (integrated securely right into the interface). - UNIX-style permissions, secure by default
Just about everything you said is included on Linux on a *Buntu default install, or can be added without going over what Vista has installed. Sorry to say, but really Vista is just pure bloat. Lets see what is in a default * Buntu install that Windows doesn't have...
Full Office Suite - OOo
Photoshop Replacement - The GIMP
Various network services - Telnet, SSH, etc
(*real*)3-D Desktop - Compiz-Fusion
Multiple Desktops
PDF Reader
Various support for files that Windows doesn't have by default (Ogg, FLAC, etc)
As you can see, Windows just can't compete with Linux when it comes to programs per storage space. In 5 gigs of a Vista install you get just about only the default install, in 5 gigs of a Ubuntu install, you get the default install, plus some of your files, some development tools, some more games, a few more applications, etc.
Parent
Re:oh come on (Score:5, Interesting)
But the entry that totally shows how clueless your post is happens to be this one:
Multiple filesystem support
Oh please. NTFS, FAT, ISO+Joilet, UDF, a couple of network "filesystems" perhaps? The Linux kernel contains many times as many filesystems, and even if you enable all of them, your kernel image will hardly ever be more than 20-30 megabytes when you compile it. You just needed to put something on what is a short list, didn't you?
As for Most extensive driver library in existence, it's not true. Most drivers come either through Windows Update (network) or via the vendor (install CD or website). Out of the box, Windows support the bare minimum it needs to run with terrible performance.
Last but not least, all the stuff falling under monster domain features is functionality. Lots of source code which gets compiled into tiny binaries. Since when does implementing "ACLs on every resource" or "domain controls enforced" on clients require gigabytes of data?
Parent