Slashdot Log In
Kodak Unveils 50MP CCD Image Sensor
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Jul 08, 2008 06:22 PM
from the 8176-by-6132-babee dept.
from the 8176-by-6132-babee dept.
i4u writes in to let us know that Kodak has announced the world's first 50 million pixel CCD image sensor for professional photography (i.e., for medium-format cameras). Engineering-grade devices of the CCD, the KAF-50100, are currently available. Kodak plans to enter volume production in Q4 2008. "At 50 megapixels, the sensor captures digital images with unprecedented resolution and detail. For instance, with a 50 megapixel camera, in an aerial photo of a field 1.5 miles [about 2.5 km] across, you could detect an object about the size of a small notebook computer (1 foot by 1 foot)." Here's CNet's Crave blog with a few more technical details.
Related Stories
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
Hasselblads? (Score:5, Informative)
H3DII-50 has had 50 megapixel backends for quite some time..?
Is it unprecedented because it's now available at a cheaper price or something?
Re:Hasselblads? (Score:5, Informative)
So this news may not be the really latest news.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
the h3-DII50 won't be available until October (possibly later)
their competitors are coming with 65 mp digital backs.
Hasselblad is a locked down proprietary system, hasselblad cameras only connect to hasselblad backs, and vice versa.
Mamiya and Phase One are using open protocols in their cameras and backs.
btw. Expect an announcement of an even higher pixelcount back at the photokina conference. 23 of september.
Re:Hasselblads? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Note (Score:5, Insightful)
This is pretty much useless without really expensive lenses, so don't expect to see it in any consumer-level cameras.
Re:Note (Score:5, Interesting)
It's a medium format sensor; the silicon imaging area is twice as big as a single 35mm film slide. Currently there's only a handful of cameras that has a "full frame" sensor for 35mm.
So, no, it will NEVER be used in a consumer-level camera. This is for people who shoot billboard ads.
This is the camera that sensor's going into:
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/h-system/h3dii-50.aspx [hasselbladusa.com]
$1k per Megapixel is about right for a Hasselblad - the H3DII-39 is about $35k. And that's just the body only. Lenses start at 3k. Zeiss makes'em. Aside from Zeiss's optical reputation, these lenses are special because the clockwork mechanism and the shutter are integrated into the lens.
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/Contents-Frame/2DFB31CE532E5E32C125711B0038D874 [zeiss.com]
Unlike a DSLR which has to expose the image sensor a slit at a time at higher shutter speeds, this means that the entire frame can be exposed simultaneously, down to 1/8000 sec.
In other words... not your typical point and shoot or Digital Rebel XSi :-)
Parent
Re:Note (Score:4, Informative)
Billboards can be shot with the cheapest of consumer digital cameras due to the fact that they are printed at an extremely low DPI. If you were standing two feet in front of a billboard it would look absolutely horrible regardless of what it was shot with, but for people viewing them from 50 feet away it looks perfect. The only thing you need a ton of megapixels for is very large prints that can be viewed up close. An average print in a shopping mall is anywhere from five to ten feet tall and you can walk right up to it. For those you need a lot of resolution. Having said that, billboards are still probably shot with medium format due to the nature of the assignment, even the two by three inch pictures on product boxes or catalogs are shot medium format because that is what is used by commercial photographers, almost exclusively.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
This is pretty much useless without really expensive lenses, so don't expect to see it in any consumer-level cameras.
But Steve Jobs could put this into the iPhone right???? The reality distortion field would correct any lens issues plus now that 3G is here, the pictures could be sent wireless.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Um 8 megapixels is useless without really good lenses. The crap lenses put on most consumer DSLR cameras are worthless. I regularly freak people out with a really old 3 megapixel DSLR (interpolates to 6MP) and a $3200 lens that takes better photos and produces better 8X10 prints than their new rebel XTi with it's $22.95 stock lens that it comes with.
it's ALL in the lens. Megapixels makes very little difference if your glass sucks.
Granted that Rebel XTi kicks my arse hard if you put a $3200.00 or better l
Re:Note (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Note (Score:5, Informative)
Well I'm sorry to break it to you, but the size of the Airy disk at f/5.6 is 7.5 microns, therefore any sensor with smaller pixels can be said to be diffraction-limited. If you want to discard the issue of color, and consider just the luminance, then the 2x2 pattern gives you a 12 micron area diameter in which case the system is diffraction-limited at f/11 and smaller. But if you do that you must be willing to admit that the system has only 3 megapixels instead of 12.
You appear to be operating under some definition of diffraction-limited other than "limited by diffraction". Also I would like to point out that 12MP on a 16x24mm sensor is 6 microns, not "less than 6 microns".
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
You should have repeated an important point from your first post. You qualified your original statement as "if the lens is perfect".
A perfect lens may be diffraction limited at f/5.6 on such a camera (I haven't done the calculation...I'll take your word and assume you did them correctly). However, real lenses aren't perfect. At f/5.6, most lenses aren't at their sharpest, and their loss of sharpness is easily greater than the diffraction at that level.
In addition, there is a depth of field issue. As you sto
I've measured around 400 Megapixels equivalent (Score:5, Informative)
...in a typical medium format transparency (6x7cm) shot with a good lens (e.g. Mamiya Sekor). That's a careful assessment made by inspecting top quality drum scans. Yes, those lenses are expensive; up to $3K-4K new, but that's not just the optics - the lens integrates the leaf shutter (not focal plane, typical of consumer cameras).
For comparison, a 35mm film frame (24x36mm, iirc) carries about 15 Megapixels (there is wide consensus on this).
More here [google.ca], here [photo.net]...
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Wide, perhaps, but not very deep, so to speak. Anybody who believes the limit on film is around 15 megapixels has essentially no clue of what they're talking about.
A really good 35 mm lens, with the camera mounted on a tripod, carefully focused, and stopped down to maximum sharpness (typically around 2-3 stops from wide open), can resolve around 100-110 lines/mm. Since the film plane is 24x
Re:I've measured around 400 Megapixels equivalent (Score:4, Informative)
You don't need that many pixels. Good quality 6-8MP digitals were considered by many to surpass film because of other characteristics (especially the lack of film grain).
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So I guess there's no point of ever comparing any two cameras now, because it all depends on the photographer?
Wrong, because there are still properties that can be compared objectively. The available lenses for SLR systems are usually better (measurable) than the fixed lenses o
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You are comparing area to length. Check your units.
Megapixels = area.
Frame dimensions = length.
35mm = 1.37" frame width
1.37" x 1.18in = 1.6 square inches in 7:6 format.
6"x7" = 42 square inches.
42 / 1.6 = 26.25 - suspiciously close to your number.
Consumer grade medium format (Score:3, Informative)
Uh, ... today? [bhphotovideo.com]
With or without Bayer pattern? (Score:4, Interesting)
The article doesn't seem to mention whether the new Kodak sensor uses the new-and-perhaps-improved pixel pattern that Kodak announced in 2007. See http://johncompton.pluggedin.kodak.com/default.asp?item=624876 [kodak.com]
Nice (Score:4, Informative)
Happily this sort of development drives down prices on consumer grade products over time. I wonder how this compares to scanning low iso medium format film on a drum scanner.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/shootout.shtml [luminous-landscape.com]
Is a good example of such a comparison, though I've seen differing results with older digital cameras.
Re: (Score:2)
That test is seriously flawed: the only real comparison they show is done on buildings with lots of perfect verticals that line up with the pixel grid of the digital sensor, making the enlargement of the digital camera look better than if a scene with lots of small detail is shot through what is essentially an aliasing artifact.
There is a second series of pictures with more details, but there the scans (that have many more pixels than the digital camera image) are then reduced to match the size of the digit
I can't use this (Score:2)
I mean really I have a 6mpix camera and have never been lacking for resolution. It's got a 12x optical zoom (powershot s3 is) so I don't need resolution to make up for magnification either.
I wonder how big the market is for people that really NEED that much resolution?
And I wonder how many people's computers will absolutely CRY when trying to open a 50mpix tiff. My 6mpix jpegs are 2.5-3.5mb. (the tiffs are 15-16mb iirc) at 50mpix, 29mb would make for a terribly large and unwieldy jpeg.
But then there wil
Re:I can't use this (Score:5, Informative)
You can't use this. I can't use this. But a real pro can. I'm just a point and shooter with a small amount of knowledge to be dangerous. 5-6 mpix is probably all I need because I don't have a discerning eye. I only want to blow stuff up to 8 x 10 once in awhile when I accidentally take a great picture (like when the airplane went right by Mt. Rainier (REALLY close) and I just happened to have a window seat. I coulda seen a climber pee in the snow on there!)
But to a real pro I could see how this would be a must have, and if it is a must have they'll pay whatever it takes to get it, and the cost will be too much for both of us. And if producing this ultimately brings down the cost of my Nikon Coolpix 5700 next time I have to buy one, that's cool with me.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly. And not just any pro, either. Somebody who makes his living doing weddings, bar mitzvahs and high school yearbook photos would have no use for it because it's too big for the job. Where this will be useful will be things like aerial photography (Think Google Earth, here.) or, as another poster pointed out, bullboards. Possibly magazine advertisements too, but I'm not sure they're detailed enough to need this.
Re:I can't use this - YES YOU CAN (Score:2)
Wow, this would be so cool. At this resolution, I expect you could crop the tiniest square out and be able to enlarge the hell out of it with it looking pixelated.
So instead of taking 100 photos, you could just take one big one of the whole school (at a ball game maybe?) and then crop headshots out all day.
And then there's the voyeurs...hot girls better watch out I guess.
Re: (Score:2)
I remember visiting an exhibition of very large format glass plate landscape photography from the nineteenth century. The detail and depth of field was astonishing. It was an entirely different experience from seeing even the finest modern small or "medium format" images in reproduction.
Re:I can't use this (Score:4, Informative)
And I wonder how many people's computers will absolutely CRY when trying to open a 50mpix tiff. My 6mpix jpegs are 2.5-3.5mb.
Here [arizona.edu] is a 24mb tiff from the Phoenix mission.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Its not a Mom and Pop ccd for a $299 camerat at walmart.
Current digital backs for film cameras like I use are 20,000 a POP !
Try to take one of you 6mp pics and blow it up to a 6ft poster or art piece, youll be swimming in boxes
I still shoot film, medium format 6cmx6cm, 25 iso high silver film. I took a picture of a building in NY and the 60th story I can count rivets in the windowsill vents when I blow it up.
For high quality there is no comparison for film, currently, I would tra
This must be the new Hasselblad H3DII-50 sensor (Score:4, Interesting)
Bing! Right on the heels of Hasselblad [hasselbladusa.com] announcing their new H3DII-50 camera (to be released in October) which presumably uses this sensor. Hasselblad has also announced a future 645 format sensor (roughly 56mm x 45mm), more details to be revealed at Photokina 2008 (major bi-annual worldwide photography trade show) later this year.
That's a tall tripod (Score:4, Interesting)
>> in an aerial photo of a field 1.5 miles [about 2.5 km] across, you could detect an object about the size of a small notebook computer
That's either a really tall tripod or image stabilization has come a lot farther than I thought.
-b
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
you assume you can only sample the sensor once.
Also look at aerial photos today. a 1m square area (when shot at 2.5km) is pretty easy to discern at least for the film-based technology I've seen.
I hope you didn't assume that they could read the keys on the laptop or something at that distance.
Oooo... (Score:3, Funny)
Hi-Rez Pr0n!!
Gimme!!!
Make your own back? (Score:3, Interesting)
I have a Mamiya 645 J (I think it is) and an older Yashica Mat 124 G that I wish had digital backs. I wonder how hard it would be to make my own back.
Not a chance (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't think a do-it yourself digital back for your old camera is a very realistic project, unless you're an experienced Analog & Digital electronics designer. Kodak used to have a pretty nice demo board for their CMOS imager chips, which was about as "plug and play" as you could hope for, but I haven't seen anything for their higher-end CCD sensors...
Actually, they do have an evaluation board listed for the previous version of this sensor:
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/ISS/Products/Fullframe/ [kodak.com]
buy an older one (Score:2)
Old digital backs are still for sale on the market because they have no moving parts to fail. They work great.
Some of them have to be tethered to a computer.
Pretty soon there will be a good surplus of used 22MP backs on the market for about the price of a 1DS MKIII ($8000). I think the mamiya ZD is trading at $10k, brand new, with lens and camera body included.
these exist! (Score:5, Informative)
They are called scanning backs because that is precisely what they do.
And yes, the resolution is unparalleled. 50 megapixels was achieved in these, oh maybe 10 years ago. Its not uncommon today for these to generate files in excess of 1GB.
Parent
Hasselblad and Film (Score:3, Informative)
Unfortunately, Hasselblad has given up on the V system line (as the H system is a completely different design) and only the lowly 16mp back is offered with a square sensor. And its mostly as a tribute to V system diehards and possibly be discontinued soon.
That means that if a V system user want to upgrade to a new digital back, like the 50mp one, will need to dump the whole system. The lenses can be used with adaptors but then you will miss their real focal length and the autofocus and electronics of the H system. Which unfortunately goes against the philosophy of the "old" Hasselblad company where one could mix modern and old components freely. That meant that you could stick a modern lens and a digital back on a 50 year old body. Now, its pretty much "dump everything" to upgrade.
Mmm, I4U gadget models! (Score:2)
I did manage to spend about 30 seconds reading the article though.
better have a steady hand (Score:2)
from cnet [cnet.com] we have:
The specs on the two cameras, however, show the lower-resolution version to be faster: 1.4 seconds per capture for the H3DII-39 over 1.1 seconds for the H3DII-50. That could simply be implementation-specific, though.
Indeed, 1.4 seconds is a very long time to not move. Only useful for objects and scenery, certainly not going to do people or wildlife.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
from cnet [cnet.com] we have:
The specs on the two cameras, however, show the lower-resolution version to be faster: 1.4 seconds per capture for the H3DII-39 over 1.1 seconds for the H3DII-50. That could simply be implementation-specific, though.
Indeed, 1.4 seconds is a very long time to not move. Only useful for objects and scenery, certainly not going to do people or wildlife.
The times refer to saving the photos, not exposing them.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
from cnet [cnet.com] we have:
The specs on the two cameras, however, show the lower-resolution version to be faster: 1.4 seconds per capture for the H3DII-39 over 1.1 seconds for the H3DII-50. That could simply be implementation-specific, though.
Indeed, 1.4 seconds is a very long time to not move. Only useful for objects and scenery, certainly not going to do people or wildlife.
I do not think that means what you think it means.
It has nothing to do with shutter speeds. You just can't shoot again until 1.4 seconds, which is how long it takes the camera to process and write the image to the card. The camera has a frame rate of about 0.7 FPS.
Telescope (Score:2)
ISPs better prepare (Score:4, Insightful)
those of us in third world countries like New Zealand who have to pay in blood for our bandwidth are going to start seeing Users sending (or trying to send) their friends 40+ meg attachments once those cameras become standard consumer issue. Trying to explain to my dad how to load MS Paint, and shrink the image, resulted in him writing down the instructions, and then promptly ringing me the first time he had to follow those instructions.
The major ISPs in this country who offer "broadband" plans with 200MB traffic per month -- yes, you read that right: MB -- are going going to have to do some serious reassessing. As it is, with Xbox demo games upward of 1GB, I don't know how we're putting up with this garbage.
As Uncle Ben said: "With great power comes great responsibility." Everybody wants the power, but nobody wants the responsibility.
I'll probably be marked as a troll, but this is a serious issue. How many of you have received one page word docs, or excel spreadsheets from companies, only to find that those files were over 5 megs? just a bunch of text, and fecking huge 12 million DPI logo.
I'm not saying we should stay in the dark ages, but we need to start preparing.
Re: (Score:2)
those of us in third world countries like New Zealand who have to pay in blood for our bandwidth are going to start seeing Users sending (or trying to send) their friends 40+ meg attachments once those cameras become standard consumer issue. Trying to explain to my dad how to load MS Paint, and shrink the image, resulted in him writing down the instructions, and then promptly ringing me the first time he had to follow those instructions.
Get your dad a Mac.
I managed to teach my mother how to us iPhoto to save an email friendly version of a photo to send to friends with a minimum of fuss.
That said, I wish someone would teach our marketing people that a 'blank' one page word template doesn't need to be 5Mb and the social club should stop killing our mail network by sending 4Mb upwards emails to the entire work userbase nationally. :/
Re: (Score:2)
More Than 50MP That Meets the Eye (Score:3, Informative)
The fovea [wikipedia.org] of the human eye, the part that sees details, is approximately (in a hexagonal layout) 4000x3000 photoreceptive cells. To saturate the foveal field with data, the Nyquist rate [wikipedia.org] says that an image must deliver 8000 x 6000 dots. Which is 48MP. 50MP is enough to cover that field. It's still not quite enough to completely fool the eye, until the 50MP is in a grid that exactly matches the eye - and no two eyes are the same, even in a single person, and not regularly hexagonal, but actually a stochastic distribution in a roughly six-axial surface across the inside of an uneven sphere.
And even then, the fovea is only about 1mm, capturing a 2-degree field in the middle of vision, about double the width of your thumbnail at arm's length. These 50MP cameras only capture the amount of info that's in the central 2 degrees, though the human eye captures data (though much less per degree outside the fovea) from a visual field [wikipedia.org] with a 160 degree horizontal width and 135 degrees vertical height. Unless the image delivery can track the eye's movement to stay projected on the fovea, the image has to have foveal (over) density imagery across the entire scene for the fovea to track across.
But for images to stare at, 50MP is about the foveal (over) resolution. Further improvement is probably better off invested in image delivery technology, as we're sampling at about the limit of what we can actually see.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:I don't know about how many LoCs this is .... (Score:5, Informative)
You mean a telephoto lens?
I have a Sigma 10-20mm lens that is a zoom lens that is from crazy-wide to very-wide, and doesn't get to a "normal" focal length. Perhaps you mean something like a 500mm lens, which doesn't zoom?
Focal length comparison, from 10 to 500mm on a 1.5x crop sensor here [flickr.com]
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Has a lot more to do with the quality of the glass than the size - the size tends to have to do more with how fast you want the shot to be (smaller aperture number/"bigger aperture" -> much bigger lens with normal optics).
The quality of the glass though...there's a reason why the lenses for a Hasselblad H3 are $4k for the same "version" of a $1k 35mm lens. Resolving power, for one.