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Next Generation CPU Refrigerators
Posted by
samzenpus
on Wed Jul 23, 2008 07:50 PM
from the just-a-little-cold dept.
from the just-a-little-cold dept.
Iddo Genuth writes "Researchers at Purdue University are developing a miniature refrigeration system, small enough to fit inside laptop computers. According to the researchers, the implementation of miniature refrigeration systems in computers can dramatically increase the amount of heat removed from the microchips, therefore boosting performance while simultaneously shrinking the size of computers."
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Excellent (Score:5, Funny)
The implementation of miniature refrigeration systems in computers can dramatically increase the amount of heat removed from the microchips.
Of course, the next step will be to dramatically increase the heat output of high-end CPUs. Aren't arms races fun?
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
with apologies to our aquatic, flightless and mostly cold-loving friend
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't you mean the Year of Vista on the Desktop? A more unattainable goal, and more related to the issue of insane heat generation...
Re:Excellent (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Excellent (Score:5, Funny)
Or dramatically increase the size of beer cans to fit these inside. I'm not interested in "Fun Size" beers.
(Fun for who? Beer companies?)
Parent
Re:Excellent (Score:4, Insightful)
Blasphemer...
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Condensation is a wonderful by product of refrigeration. The love of PC electronics for oozing water is well known. Perhaps refrigeration is not the best idea inside a PC case.
Re:Excellent (Score:4, Interesting)
To put it simply: That is not a big problem, there are many ways around it. The big problem, I would say, is that refrigeration requires energy which is in short supply for laptops. Whats even worse is that refrigeration allows the computer itself to consume more energy, which creates a circle that just isnt sustainable.
This basic idea has been around for ages, and it has never been put to use simply because it creates more problems than it solves. Do we really need more CPU power in laptops? Is that really what we need from them? No, improved human interface devices, uptime and bandwidth are more important goals.
Parent
Re:Excellent (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't think multi-core is going to cut it, it seems to me each processor needs it's own mememory and bandwidth to do massive calculations, and then sends the results of this information to where it is needed.
While multi-core isn't amazingly effective for doing 'massive calculations' of the variety that scientists usually do (compared to a supercomputer with thousands of nodes anyway), it is great for general purpose computing. It definitely helps for everyday use - whenever I use a single core computer (even with a high clockspeed), I notice the difference in responsiveness, especially when booting into Windows and all the system tray apps are loading, or running lots of applications at the same time. You have to remember that even if you're just running a single application on your dekstop, there are plenty of background processes too.
Not that I want to dissuade you from researching into more efficient processor methodologies, even if it's only for specific tasks - go ahead :) But when you get down to it, most tasks your average computer user does during the day are neither suitable for parallelisation, nor are they considered highly specialised. I'm just thinking of web browsing, chatting, checking email. Modern games do involve lots of operations that 20 years ago would be considered 'specialised', like 3D sound, graphics and physics processing, but we already have specialised processors for all of these things.
I'm really wondering if anyone has done any research into the geometry of information processing functions, of what can be specifically offloaded and what should not
I don't think you're giving the guys at places like Intel and AMD much credit.. if they hadn't thought about stuff like that then where did the idea for 'hyperthreading' and different CPU 'pipelines' come from? To me it seems that the only things that have changed in the last couple of decades is that we've gone from having computers that were mainly designed for integer arithmetic as far as hardware was concerned, to having computers with addons for floating point calculation, and now we have units capable of massively parallel floating point calculations and amazing amounts of memory bandwidth (graphics cards and supercomputers), and now we are getting APIs like CUDA to make use of graphics cards to do more supercomputer like things with our graphics cards. I'm not a CPU design engineer though, so the true progression is probably a bit more complex ;)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You mean like motherboard chipsets? These days the chipset is gradually being moved into the CPU die anyway, and even graphics are being integrated with the CPU die, so I don't think heat dissipation is the main problem there. As everything is made smaller, chips can be run on lower voltages and generate less heat anyway. For mobile devices you are pretty limited in how far you can spread things out as well. I did refer to desktop CPUs in the GP post, but that was me being a moron as I just found it easier
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
How much juice? (Score:5, Insightful)
And how much electricity will this consume? It may not be that appealing to laptop users if it eats significantly into their battery life. And for servers many colo companies are finding themselves less constrained by space than by available electricity.
Re:How much juice? (Score:5, Interesting)
Could be pretty damn efficient if it's a heat pump.
A good AC unit usually consumes less than 10 times the energy it moves (a 1 kW window unit rated for 40,000 BTUs for example), but that depends how much colder the inside needs to be compared to the outside air.
In case of CPU coolers (cooling things hotter than ambient air), one could even GENERATE electricity if the size and cost of the "cooler" is not a concern (A thick diamond heatpipe to conduct heat away to distant thermocouples is how I would do it).
Parent
Re:How much juice? (Score:4, Funny)
1) Build a data center
2) Rent it out
3) Generate Electricity
4) Profit!
So now we know why Google wants all the data of the world running on their servers. They are not competing with Microsoft. They are competing with the oil industry.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Revolutionary (Score:5, Funny)
the implementation of miniature refrigeration systems in computers can dramatically increase the amount of heat removed from the microchips, therefore boosting performance
Really? So my CPU will perform faster if I put it in a refigerator?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Yes, if you take advantage of the extra heat absorption by overclocking the CPU to run faster.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
So it's the overclocking (i.e., increasing the clock frequency) that makes your CPU run faster, not the fact that it's cooler, as the article implies. And some CPUs generate more heat than other CPUs with lower clock speeds, so that relationship isn't a linear one, either.
Also, most modern high-end CPUs can't be overclocked by much, regardless of how cold you make them. The problem isn't heat, the problem is how fast the transistors can switch while remaining in sync. Sure, if you buy a low-end CPU from a h
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
most modern high-end CPUs can't be overclocked by much, regardless of how cold you make them
The half-dozen Core-2 Q6600s I've taken from 2.4ghz to 3.6ghz would argue otherwise, as would the QX9650 that I pushed to 4.7ghz. But hey, what do I know, right ?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Condensation? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Condensation? (Score:5, Informative)
Only because they cool below the dew point - which, in turn, is dependent on the humidity levels.
People who build active cooling into their computers (for overclocking) typically insulate the chip(s) and cooling block to keep air-exposed surfaces at or above ambient temperatures for just that reason.
Also, even if it does produce condensation I'd say there's little reason to worry... just recycle the condensate to provide evaporative cooling on the (much hotter) heat sink side of the system.
=Smidge=
Parent
An alternative... (Score:4, Interesting)
...is to position the computer upside-down. Condensation does not form on the hot surfaces, only the cold surfaces. If the cold surfaces cause the water to drip away, there is no way for the water to interfere. Another option is to refrigerate the entire computer (which is done by overclockers), as the coldest point will then be far away, and you've the added bonus that the air will be very dry within a short timeframe.
A third option would be to run copper from each chip surface to the refrigerator. The heat gradient will prevent any chip running hot, you only need one refrigerator, and you can handle the case of the heavy workloads shifting from one part of the system to another.
Parent
Re:Condensation? (Score:4, Interesting)
Not to mention the reason you get condensation in a fridge is often that a single compressor operates both the fridge and freezer. Systems with different compressors for the two systems are more segregated, and have less condensation problems. Each system stays at a controlled humidity level.
Parent
Side Question??? (Score:3, Interesting)
It costs something like $300/gallon (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Nitrogen costs less than beer (Score:5, Informative)
You're right, liquid nitrogen does not cost anywhere near $300/gallon, but the GP wasn't talking about nitrogen, they were talking about 3M Fluorinert, which does indeed cost an arm and a leg.
The problem with these fluids is they can't keep up with today's processors. Immersing a PC in a vat of mineral oil won't magically cool the damned thing. You still need to extract the heat from that big pool of sludge; natural convection just doesn't cut it anymore. In fact, the fluid acts kind of like an insulator, because it moves so slowly that heat builds up right on your processor. You'd need propellers to move the flooz around, probably pump it through some sort of radiator.
On the plus side, I could use my overclocked PCs to cook me some french fries for my poutine :)
Parent
Re:Side Question??? (Score:5, Informative)
You mean mineral oil immersion?
linkage: http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/12/puget-custom-computers-mineral-oil-cooled-pc/ [engadget.com]
Parent
Re:Side Question??? (Score:5, Informative)
I think he's probably thinking of Fluorinert [wikipedia.org], which was used to cool the Cray 2.
Parent
It still drains the battery (Score:2, Insightful)
Regardless of the cooling ability, it will put the same load on the laptop's battery, likely a little bit more because it has to run the compressors.
And that heat still needs to be dumped somewhere...
I guess this would be great for certain difficult hot-spots on the board, but a well-designed heat sink can usually handle it. The trade-off is that it adds more weight.
Re: (Score:2)
It still drains the battery, but not necessarily the same way that a fan drains a battery. Think of the difference between a compact fluorescent versus an incandescent bulb. They can both be tuned to release a certain amount of light, but the CF will release a whole lot less heat and use less energy to do the same job as the incandescent light. In this case, the CF bulb is vastly more efficient in doing the work of emitting light.
The article doesn't say anything about the amount of energy the new pump use
Dump it near the Wifi module (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Hype (Score:5, Insightful)
Translation:
This is completely impractical hype so far. We are looking for grant and startup money.
Now if they could just make a little alteration (Score:2)
and bring that cooling around to that cupholder thing on the side of my laptop, I could keep my beer cool as well while I'm downloading pr0n.
Power Requirements? (Score:2)
I wonder what kind of power these little diaphragms suck down. I imagine that a liquid based cooling system is more efficient than one based on circulating air. It's great that this technology can move heat away faster, but I wonder if it can do it at a lower power cost.
bad idea (Score:3, Interesting)
Law of Unintended Consequences (Score:3, Funny)
Sure, they've made it small... (Score:3, Funny)
...but does it protect from nuclear blasts???
Re:Hotter? (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah I don't get this, the heat need to leave the laptop somehow, and since the refrigerator will have to be within the laptop the heat remains inside it. Also since the refrigerator won't be 100% effecient this will both generate MORE heat and energy from the battery.
Sure the CPU may get colder, but your lap will get warmer. Bad trade I'd say.
Re:Hotter? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah I don't get this, the heat need to leave the laptop somehow, and since the refrigerator will have to be within the laptop the heat remains inside it
The refrigerator's exterior heat exchanging pipes don't have to be inside the refrigerator itself. They didn't give any technical specs, so what are you worried about? Surely if they are working on this project, they'll have thought or experienced this problem if they were putting all items in the same location.
Also, consider that, to a point, the ambient heat inside a laptop can be higher, as long as the PUs are kept cool. Of course if this were the only consideration, eventually the ambient heat would screw all the components except for the processors, but, as I said, they've considered this already. I'm sure of it.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, personally I don't care if my CPU is 45 degrees or 75 degrees as long as my lap isn't 70 degrees.
And the sad fact with my MBP is that it probably is :D (no it's not but it's too hot.) :/
I'd so take 5 mm fatter computer for better cooling
Re:Hotter? (Score:5, Funny)
they've considered this already. I'm sure of it.
More famous last words have ne'er been spoken.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Refrigeration systems use compressors, which are big power drags. The battery drain here can not be overlooked.
Refrigeration systems from desktops exist, and they are called water-coolers.
Re:Hotter? (Score:4, Informative)
No they are called phase change systems. Much more expensive than water cooling.
Parent
Re:Hotter? (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course the cooling system will use power and generate heat, but that heat won't necessarily be as much as a fan. A fan uses power to dissipate heat and in the process generates heat. I don't know the proper thermodynamic way to state this, but it's possible to make a more or less efficient cooling system. For example, it would be exceedingly inefficient to use a V8 engine to cool a laptop. It would do a hell-of a job of cooling the thing, but it would generate a whole lot more heat and suck down a whole lot more energy than a small electric fan.
This thing might use less power and do a better job of moving power than a fan. I have no idea if this thing works better. If this device is more efficient than a fan (uses less energy and releases less heat), then it would be superior and would not make a lappy hotter. Otherwise, it's really only good for server applications where the heat can be pumped outside the box that holds the server.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
the second property is that using heatsink you have the cpu at 60C, the sink at 60C and the ambient at 20C so the exchange is at 40 degree difference. using a refrigerator you will have the cpu at 40, the dissipation surface at 80, and the exchange at 60 degree, which is mo
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think so, other than making a lot of noise and using more electricity I dont think it would do much of anything, you could use it to create a vortex heat exchanger, but your engine would have to be running at RPM's far beyond what a normal combustion engine can run (like in the 100,000+ RPM range).
Besides, if you are doing that, you may aswell go for full condensing cooling, which a combustion engine wouldnt be able to handle because they dont seal well enough to create enough pressure needed, thats
Re: (Score:2)
The Tardis' outside dimensions and volume remain the same (it's stuck as a Police Call Box), it's interior volume, however, is limitless.
I would trade my lappy for a Tardis any day of the week though.