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What Do You Do When the Cloud Shuts Down?
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Tue Aug 12, 2008 07:22 AM
from the more-to-think-about dept.
from the more-to-think-about dept.
jbrodkin writes "Can you trust your data to the cloud? For users of an online storage service called The Linkup, formerly known as MediaMax, the answer turned out to be a resounding 'no.' The Linkup shut down on Aug. 8 after losing access to as much as 45% of its customers' data.
'When we looked at some individual accounts, some people didn't have any files, and some people had all their files,' The Linkup CeO Steve Iverson admits.
None of the affected users will get their lost data back. Iverson called it a 'worst-case scenario.'"
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Backups, backups, backups! (Score:5, Insightful)
Like anything else, including local technology, the key is to create a backup strategy. The cloud creates special problems for performing and managing backukps, so you need to understand your chosen compute or storage cluster provider's options, as well as other options specific for your application in regards to backups.
Re:Backups, backups, backups! (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Backups, backups, backups! (Score:5, Insightful)
No kidding. Why do you think I said 'backups' three times in the subject line? ;) That's what I mean by a 'backup strategy' -- backup strategies, which are sometimes called 'disaster recovery plans', though that's really a bigger plan that includes a backup strategy, include making multiple redundant backups, offsite storage of backups, considerations for multiple different media, etc. There are several 'best practices', but the best strategy is going to be different for each company or department and often even for each application.
The best thing to do is to examine what kind(s) of data there is in the set, how large that data set is, how often that data gets updated, how often it needs to be accessed, and what are the potential costs for losing a day's, week's, month's, year's etc. worth of that data. That will point you in the direction as to frequency of backups, types of backups, etc.
Offsite backups are essential for any data requiring backup.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There's now the assumption (and we all know what assume means) that if it's "in the cloud," the data is safe or backed up somewhere. Servers fail. Backups fail. Software glitches happen. Disasters - natural or other - happen. Even if you're lucky and you don't lose the actual data, losing access to it is the same - and for an extended length of time, it can be expensive.
No matter how much we preach to the choir, it seems that most people simply don't get the message.
Re:Backups, backups, backups! (Score:5, Insightful)
"No matter how much we preach to the choir, it seems that most managers simply don't want to pay for it."
Fixed that for you.
Parent
Re:Backups, backups, backups! (Score:5, Funny)
"No kidding. Why do you think I said 'backups' three times in the subject line?"
I think he was just backing up your statement!
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Redundancy, redundancy, off-site redundancy
There, fixed that for you. Backups aren't worth a damn if the building is blown up.
Hm, there seems to be a pizza van outside my residence...
Re:Backups, backups, backups! (Score:5, Funny)
There, fixed that for you. Backups aren't worth a damn if the building is blown up.
Yeah, I already thought of that. *smug* I have a script that backs up all my files from our servers in WTC1 to our servers in WTC2. What are the odds we could lose both sets of servers?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
.
setting asside any questions of bad taste....
there is a real argument to be made here for "security through obscurity."
for choosing the small town industrial site that the locals haven't given a thought to in thirty-five years.
Re:Backups, backups, backups! (Score:4, Funny)
I used to back up my data in the mustache-and-goatee universe, but it kept coming back with the Evil bit set.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
True, but the cloud (at least in theory) also gives you ubiquitous access to your data from any location - when it's online, of course. I think it's best to treat it as the centralized synchronization point that you work from day-to-day (think: email, calendar) so that it's consistent across your devices, but have at least one system that YOU control periodically backing up that data.
The issues with services like Gmail and Amazon S3 tend not to be with hardware failures, but with software problems. Recent
Re:Backups, backups, backups! (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't forget to have a RESTORE strategy in place, too, and one that can be executed by others. Redundant backups don't do any good if you don't know how to restore from them, and know approximately how long it will take to restore.
We set up a test system identical to a few of our servers and had non-IT people execute the restoration plan for the core applications/data our business needs. There were a few flaws in the plan but it was a GREAT learning tool.
Parent
Re:Backups, backups, backups! (Score:4, Interesting)
I proposed an idea [halfbakery.com] like a P2P backup. Say you have some 20 GB you want to back up. You make 20 GB available on your system, and fire up a P2P backup program. You partner with people who want to backup also, trade backup space, and voila! You have a distributed backup system. It's all encrypted, so you can't get into other people's stuff on your system, and vice-versa. Periodically, the app checks to make sure that all your backup partners are available. If not, it starts negotiating a backup with a new partner.
Of course, you don't want to lose your stuff to a single host going down, you would have a ratio of 3:1 or 4:1 to make sure that you have high availability.
Parent
Re:Backups, backups, backups! (Score:4, Informative)
That idea is already quite prevalent and many programs such as BuddyBackup [databarracks.com] already use this idea.
Parent
Test restore, test restore, test restore! (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't have any way of verifying this story, but I worked with an old guy once who told me that he had been at a startup in the UK that was, by the sound of it, creating a kind of IMDB in about 1994. They had a team of researchers and a bunch of seed capital to create a large film database. Everything was ticking along for about 18 months and they had researched thousands of films.
Then one day, the database shut down and they traced it to some bad hardware. They replaced the hardware and restored the database from the previous night's backup. Nothing doing - the backup tape (he said it was DAT) was corrupt. So they tried the other one. Nada. Same corruption. So they tried the off-site one. Same thing. Turned out all the backups they had made seem to have transferred the same corruption resulting in nothing significant recoverable.
Had they tried a test restore at some point, they might have found out. As it was, a week after the crash, they shut the business down.
Which reminds me of another (maybe apocryphal) story: the head of IT as a large company was fond of organising disaster recovery practices by walking into the data centre, physically removing a (pre-ordained) server and leaving a note in its place with the words "The server crashed" written on it. The support staff (and presumably management) knew that this would happen, but not when, or which machine (or dependent services) would be affected. Interesting test I would say.
Parent
Not a new problem! (Score:5, Insightful)
What do you do when your local computer shuts down? How about a server on your company intranet? The cloud is no different. Backups are your friend!
Re: (Score:2)
The cloud is no different.
Yes and no. It rather depends on how you access the data. I still associate cloud computing with horrid, web-only interfaces. If you can mount the remote disk and have random access to the filesystem, backups get a lot easier.
Re:Not a new problem! (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Which leads me to this question...why is the cloud not doing backups? The cloud provider should be backing up the data within the cloud. I had assumed (wrongfully it turns out) that one of the benefits of using a cloud was that your data was backed up in some distributed fashion. It turns out that doesn't seem to be the case.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Which leads me to this question...why is the cloud not doing backups? The cloud provider should be backing up the data within the cloud. I had assumed (wrongfully it turns out) that one of the benefits of using a cloud was that your data was backed up in some distributed fashion. It turns out that doesn't seem to be the case.
That is what's happening, when the cloud is working properly. Google has a zillion servers for running Docs. Any one server dies, I don't even know about it because another steps in seamlessly.
But what happens if the whole damn cloud dies? What happens if Google goes tits up, changes terms of service, whatever?
At least for Docs, I still have the local viewer and can export from there.
I'm thinking that the best concept for cloud computing in practical terms would be the route Google is going, a mix between s
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
What do you do when your local computer shuts down? How about a server on your company intranet?
Well with the former I can pull the hard drive and shove it in a new machine and be at least trying to recover my data inside of an hour. With the latter, the systems team could be doing the equivalent inside of a day (as the servers don't tend to be in the office).
If my remote document storage/app server/whatever goes down, even transiently, there's nothing I can do until it comes back up (other than hope that i
Backup, Storage (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't believe this article. The number of places you store your data is directly related to the level of which it's important to you. People put all their data in once place then cry when it's gone? How is this new?
Isn't this akin to dumping all you money into one stock then whining when it tanks?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Backup, Storage (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, but that doesn't stop people from doing exactly that.
Parent
What Do You Do When the Cloud Shuts Down? (Score:5, Insightful)
Open the curtains and let the sunshine in, and water the garden.
Oh, you mean the network... what kind of fool trusts his data with someone else?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
A fool and his data are soon to be parted.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I build my own hard drives and power supply too!
Re:What Do You Do When the Cloud Shuts Down? (Score:4, Funny)
You don't generate your own electricity, too? Slacker!
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, cloud storage is very useful as part of a backup strategy -- offsite, maintained to professional standards. It's even more useful for geographically-disperse projects (or when I need to get at my files on the move).
But running a company that provides this sort of service is like running a bank. It's too bad Nirvanix thinks that this isn't their problem. Even if it's a screwup by an administer from the part of the old company
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed. I wonder what the TOS looks like for both companies? If they had 20,000 paying customers and they suddenly went {POOF}, you'd think that some of those customers might be annoyed enough about it to lawyer up.
Without knowing any of the details (since both sides seem very cagey about the specifics), it looks more like a classic case of a company running out of money and closing up shop with scant notice to their clients. I can't imagine anyone trusting what's left of this venture with any data in th
Re:What Do You Do When the Cloud Shuts Down? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Whether or not you get money out of them in compensation for the lost data is almost non-important
Maybe for a home user, but usually for a business time actually does = money, and the two are relatively interchangeable. One day of work = $x, and insurance means a lot. And if you'd actually read TFA, you would know that one of the companies involved, Nirvanix, is a business oriented cloud-storage company.
Maybe what you meant to say was "Insurance means nothing to me."
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well DUH! (Score:2, Redundant)
Rule number one is to be able to restore those backups.
Rule number two is to have backups.
Rule number three is if you forget rule number one and two, don't come crying.
And yes, restoring data is more important then backing up.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
No, no, no, you have it all wrong.
The first rule of backups is: "You do not talk about backups."
Re: (Score:2)
"restoring data is more important then backing up" Now how are you going to restore data and THEN back it up??
Re:Well DUH! (Score:5, Funny)
I back up everything to /dev/null. Restoration is somebody else's job.
Parent
The critical flaw (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In fact, even if it's encrypted locally, that means I'm even more likely to lose it at the border because if it's encrypted then surely I'm an evil terrorist come to take away all your freedoms that you enjoy, such as your protection from unreasonable search or seizure...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What's preventing a service that does encryption/decryption on the client side? Other than the lack of desire from the providers I mean.
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OK, so I'm a dinosaur, but... (Score:4, Funny)
Besides, with Remote Desktop, FOUSs*, and continuous 'Net connections, it's pretty easy to take it with you.
* (8GB on a microSDHC the size of my fingernail is a Flashdrive Of Unusual Size in my book!)
An old maxim: (Score:3, Insightful)
If you want something done right, do it yourself.
Those who would knowingly trust their data to an outside (and relatively untested) organization without having a backup in place are just asking for something like this to happen.
Oh, ya, backups are hard.
Clouds are overhyped. (Score:2)
Like all current buzzwords people jump onto them with a vague understanding on what they are and what they do. Just to be buzzword complaint. Clouds are rather complicated to maintain and operate and are really for only some very particular tasks. Most companies and people don't need them and shouldn't use them, as it is to much effort for the gain. So you doubled performance however you need 3 times the IT Staff hours to keep it operating smoothly and manage the cloud, it really isn't worth it for most cas
Sell me data insurance (Score:3, Interesting)
Every year, I read the terms of service of a bunch of online backup services, but I have not found one that gives the provider any incentive to be careful. They say they have *no liability of any kind*. Why should I trust them?
I will cheerfully pay to insure access to my data, but nobody offers me insurance.
Same happened to me. (Score:4, Funny)
And now look what I'm left with!
This is why backups are important (Score:3, Interesting)
A few years ago, I had my websites hosted at this one company, Digi-Wave. They were great for a few years, but suddenly their servers were down. For a week. Yes, I said a week. The servers came up again briefly before going down again, but in that brief span, I managed to backup my database and files. When I called their support line, I was told that their servers were infected with Code Red (IIRC, I know it was one of those IIS worms). I knew this was a bogus answer because the fix to Code Red infection was: 1) disconnect the machine from the 'Net, 2) reboot it, 3) apply the patch (possibly rebooting again), 4) reconnect to the 'Net. It shouldn't have taken them over a week to fix this.
Then they stopped answering support calls and their phone's inbox filled up until it stopped accepting recordings. By this time, I contacted my credit card company to get my money back and had made arrangements with another hosting provider. I was lucky to have retained my data. Many were not so lucky. And to add insult to injury, after Digi-Wave folded, another hosting company arose with a different name but the same contact information.
The moral of this story is to always backup. Because you never know when the cloud, your webhost, or even your personally owned and run server will go south and take your data with it.
Link to the article on ONE PAGE (Score:4, Funny)
This version [networkworld.com] may be easier to read.
Bottom line: The Linkup is blaming Nirvanix (a third-party service provider) which is, of course, blaming The Linkup. FTA:
Summary: "He did it." "No, he did it." "No, it was him!" "You did it FIRST!" "Idiot!" "Moron!" "Jackass!" ** customers shoot them both **
Storage Service Provider (Score:3, Informative)
I used to work at a Storage Service Provider back in the dotcom era (StorageNetworks baby!), and before you sign up for any type of service provider that would be providing access to your data you need to go over that contract with a fine toothed comb. Two areas that need to be covered are:
What happens if the SSP goes out of business, how do you get your data back? In our contracts we would give you your data back either via access to the old arrays for X days to copy it somewhere else. Worst case: We drop a truckload of tapes off on your doorstep.
Financial impact of loss of service. We had many financial customers that wanted to make sure we had "enough cash in the bank" to cover their financial losses if they suffered any downtime due to an issue on our end.
Just like picking a hosting provider, you need to make sure you have contingency plans for data loss or corruption. If the SSP can't provide you with the services you need (backups, snapshots etc..), find another provider.
Re: (Score:2)