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Carbon-Neutral Ziggurat Could House 1.1 Million In Dubai
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Mon Aug 25, 2008 03:54 PM
from the big-brother's-wet-dream dept.
from the big-brother's-wet-dream dept.
Engadget is reporting that a new pyramid-shaped city of the future, dubbed a "Ziggurat," is being touted by Dubai-based environmental design company, Timelinks. Claiming that their design allows for an almost self-sufficient energy footprint and, obviously, economy of space, the real trick would be getting 1.1 million people to live in such close proximity. "Martijn Kramer, managing director of The International Institute for the Urban Environment told WAN: 'As a general reaction the Ziggurat Project is viable from a technical point of view. However reflecting from a more sustainable holistic approach we do wonder if the food supply and waste system are taken care for, as the concept seems rather based upon carbon neutrality and energy saving.' Kramer's initial reaction to 'Ziggurat' also raises a very important issue: are people willing to live in a mega building of 2.3 sq km? Will the thought of living in a machine comfort people?"
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Let's find out. (Score:3, Funny)
Will the thought of living in a machine comfort people?
Let's find out from some people who live in an actual machine. Morpheus, what do you think?
Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
for an opposing viewpoint, let's ask Cypher. Cypher?
Cypher: You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize?
[Takes a bite of steak]
Cypher: Ignorance is bliss.
and, finally, for another insight, we'll ask Agent Smith:
Agent Smith: Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.
Re:Let's find out. (Score:5, Funny)
You forgot to get the opinion of the savior, The One himself, as to what he thinks of these Ziggurats.
Neo: Whoa!
So there ya have it.
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Re:Let's find out. (Score:4, Funny)
> You forgot to get the opinion of the savior,
> The One himself, as to what he thinks of these Ziggurats.
Why should the people of Dubai care what Senator Obama thinks?
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Re:Let's find out. (Score:4, Funny)
See, and here I thought Obama was more like Morpheus, who would lead the revolution and find The One, but that ultimately the Real Deal would be a pasty white guy who honestly isn't nearly as cool.
Biden?
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right up till... (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone crashes a A340F full of explosives into it. Or sets fires in it, or...
Well you get the idea. Good idea but a great target.
Re:right up till... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:right up till... (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:right up till... (Score:5, Interesting)
I just saw the NOVA episode about NIST's report on the WTC collapse.
One interesting fact they mentioned: in the event of a disaster, sky scrapers are not designed to be evacuated. There isn't enough room in the stairwells to get thousands of people down dozens of floors in a timely fashion.
In the event of fire, people are supposed to generally stay in place, while a few floors near the fire are evacuated. Fire is then fought in place on the effected floors.
If it's not possible to get a few thousand people out of the WTC in an hour or two, then there's no way you'll ever evacuate a million people from a single building.
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One word (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:One word (Score:5, Funny)
Napoleon, is that you?
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Re:right up till... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's pretty dangerous to exit a skyscraper from the side halfway up. A pyramid, however, can have dozens of exits all over it's surface. They may not be all that safe, depending on the slope, but better than straight down. After all, it's an emergency exit.
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Re:right up till... (Score:5, Interesting)
One interesting fact they mentioned: in the event of a disaster, sky scrapers are not designed to be evacuated. There isn't enough room in the stairwells to get thousands of people down dozens of floors in a timely fashion.
In the event of fire, people are supposed to generally stay in place, while a few floors near the fire are evacuated. Fire is then fought in place on the effected floors.
If it's not possible to get a few thousand people out of the WTC in an hour or two, then there's no way you'll ever evacuate a million people from a single building.
Did you just not get it? Why would you evacuate a city or large skyscraper if you didn't have to? Sure, fires can spread quickly, but has NY been burnt to the ground by a few random fires in its sky scrappers? Nope, that city seems to be still standing. If we've figured out how to build single building skyscrapers that can isolate a fire and most of the surrounding floors barely notice, why don't you think we can design an entire city like that? You don't evacuate everything, only the isolated areas that are currently dangerous. This is like whining that NY is doomed if any single one of its skyscrapers burned because there would be the potential that the fire could spread to the rest of the city. Here is a clue. Dubai like NY has a fire department and will design such structures so most people don't have to leave their spots when the fire fighters pop by to put the random fire out.
This is like complaining that just in case the structure is hit by a nuke there wouldn't be an easy way to get people out and house them afterward. Heck, any city of 1 million that was hit by a nuke wouldn't be able to move the people or house its refugees. I'd be more worried about industrial air pollution laws within the structure to keep the air quality higher than outside.
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Re:right up till... (Score:5, Interesting)
Someone crashes a A340F full of explosives into it. Or sets fires in it, or...
If it's that large, nothing short of a nuke will take it out quickly. A big fire might take it out eventually, but it will take a while.
You did remind me of something though.
Why not put the poor in there? Putting poor people in close proximity housing [wikipedia.org] is a great idea!
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Re:right up till... (Score:5, Informative)
If it's that large, nothing short of a nuke will take it out quickly. A big fire might take it out eventually, but it will take a while.
Looking at the concept art [worldarchi...renews.com], it looks like a fire would have a hard time spreading throughout the structure.
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Re:right up till... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Easy target (Score:5, Funny)
but I am pretty sure a pyramid can be easily unbalanced.
Actually, I think they intend to build this one broad side downwards. :)
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Re:right up till... (Score:5, Insightful)
Be fair. It could happen any place.
Toyko, Oklahoma, or the Middle East.
One of the sad rules of the Universe is that it is a lot easier to destroy than to create. It only takes a few evil nut jobs willing to die to create a lot of misery.
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Cool! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Cool! (Score:5, Funny)
Massive massive props to them. I could never get the population up high enough in Sim City 2000. What was it, about 90000 required before you could build them?
Give them 10 years and they'll get bored and turn the disasters back on.
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vapor? (Score:4, Insightful)
Who cares? Show us something real.
Control of personal space (Score:5, Insightful)
People can live in very different conditions if their basic needs are met, if there is a cultural web to participate in, and if they have control over their personal space and possibility of advancement.
I see challenges of propinquity here, but there are very crowded, thriving urban environments to use as examples.
The key question to answer is: What is the reason for the people to live there, rather than somewhere else? That's the question that builds cities - or ghost towns.
Re:Control of personal space (Score:5, Informative)
Dharavi, which is probably Asia's largest slum, has roughly 1 million people living on roughly 2 sq. kilometers already and is damn low in carbon footprint, with most things done by hand. The Fact that they can design a building to do the same isn't that impressive, What would be impressive is if they can do it without turning the lower floors into slave pens.
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Obligatory, Warcraft (Score:4, Funny)
Where does the food come from? (Score:4, Insightful)
Carbon and energy neutral food I mean?
Re:Where does the food come from? (Score:5, Funny)
You know those people that live on the bottom floor? They're soylentalicious! Now that's thinking green.
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Re:Where does the food come from? (Score:4, Insightful)
You hit it right on the nose. Forget about where air, food, water, and energy come from or where wastes go, or about trapping a million people or more in a building for generations on end, or what happens in the event of a major fire or other disaster, etc, etc.
Let's just shut our eyes and think happy, unquestioning thoughts!
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Beats mcmansions in Bakersfield (Score:5, Insightful)
For all the billions Calif* spends propping up worthless mortgages, it could build gigantic ziggurats & actually house people.
Willingness (Score:5, Insightful)
are people willing to live in a mega building of 2.3 sq km?
Sure, why not. It's not like there won't be parks, squares, expedition, lanes, views.. dense cities are essentially one mega building already.
Re:Willingness (Score:5, Interesting)
I have some conditions:
I would only live there if the ziggurat itself was owned by the public and maintained with taxes. The public spaces, police department, fire department, and etc should all be cared for by the 'city'. I don't want to live in a huge gigantic apartment complex "cared for" by some corporation. Apartment complexes suck enough without the added problem of having to leave the _city_ in order to get away from a bad landlord.
I would want to be able to own, buy, and sell "land" in the ziggurat the same way I can own, buy, and sell real land, condos, and etc.
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Why wouldn't they want to live there? (Score:5, Interesting)
People live in large blocks of flats today, and would anyone really prefer ugly, grey, and box-shaped over clean, high-tech, and pyramid-shaped?
Worst Cruiseline ever? (Score:5, Funny)
My advice: Try taking a cruise on something other than a docked riverboat casino.
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Resistance is futile (Score:3, Funny)
Resistance is futile. We are Dubai.
Book Plug (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't remember much else about this book, but the idea of a giant city-building stands out.
_Oath of Fealty_, by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle.
http://www.amazon.com/Oath-Fealty-Larry-Niven/dp/0671532278 [amazon.com]
Dibbs! Level 3-top Corner, North East facing (Score:4, Interesting)
I got not particular problem with spending a substantial amount of time indoors. I like to get out in nature now and then too, but within a city? Who cares?
I do however like decent view.
If the hallways are design appropriately, and there are some largish open spaces within also designed appropriately it's an easy sale.
Re:Dibbs! Level 3-top Corner, North East facing (Score:4, Informative)
From the article, the concept art shows a structure that is more of a perforated pyramid, so the surface area could be substantially longer than your napkin calculations suggest.
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Arcology (Score:5, Interesting)
All predictions aside, I'd be surprised to see this ever happen. After all, the first one [wikipedia.org] built in Arizonba never did fare that well.
Culture vs. Need vs. ...? (Score:5, Interesting)
Culture obviously plays into whether or not folks would be willing to live in something that is hyper-dense or not.
OTOH, something that doesn't seem to be taken into account is, what happens when families change? A single guy only needs 'x' amount of space. Now when that single guy gets married*, has 4 kids, and a parent becomes decrepit/disabled and decide to move in...? Obviously there's going to be a lot of change in how much space the guy can be comfortable living in, no matter what culture we're talking about here.
Also, what happens when some fatal communicable disease starts making the rounds? shutting folks into their 'homes' will only work for so long before even the most gregarious human being starts to get cabin fever (for lack of a better term).
There's also the chance that the local economy could contract as well - you can only fit so much stuff into one space, and it's not like, say, Home Depot could do a whole lot besides sell wallpaper, paint, and light fixtures to the folks (just as example).
Some folks here will happily cry against the "McMansion!" and think they're being the smartest guy in the room, but consider this: those things do get sold for a reason, especially as our society gets more and more 'crowded'... Suburbs, as much as they're derided, are actually a compromise between the comfort of wide-open spaces (and a buffer from 'the world'), and the conveniences of living in a city.
From that point, it begins digging deeper into some fundamental human psychology - how does a human being deal with being more and more crowded in society?
* yes, we could pack the city with programmers and handily solve the marriage problem, but we're talking people here...
Integrated greenspace is a must (Score:3, Insightful)
as are varied views within the structure. No one wants to live in a big, faceless glass box, nor look at big, faceless glass boxes. But if you have a large structure with integrated greenspace and human-scale details within the superstructure, to help fix the eye and give a sense of place, then it's not hard to imagine a million people living within it happily.
Think Central Park--There are tens of thousands of people in it at any given time, but because it's made of little hills and dales and stands of trees you never see more than 20 people at one time and it doesn't feel crowded. If you did a similar thing in three dimensions it could work.
Smoke and Mirrors (Score:4, Interesting)
I can answer his question about whether "food supply and waste system are taken care for" the answer is NO. Dubai sewerage system has been operating at twice its capacity for a couple of years and the new plant which is due in a couple of years is already not enough.
For a quick overview of how glitzy this town really is you can check those:
2 weeks sewerage flood
http://www.gulfnews.com/Nation/Society/10225546.html [gulfnews.com]
This was only one "small" issue amongst too many to list. The government and whatever service in charge were overwhelmed and incapable to do anything to fix it. Or didn't care. Let's note that the residential complex has been built about 250 meters away from the sewerage treatment plant. Smell of shit can be enjoyed night and day there even where there is no flood. glitzy..
Dubai is about glitz and money, big tower and man made island but all that is nothing but smoke and mirror, the reality is that the town has not much to live up to the reputation it is trying to build for itself by announcing mega-project over mega-project while finishing none of them.
I could go on and on with my rant. I just want to add that we live behind a filtering proxy that bars any website that dares commenting against the UAE and it is very well possible that slashdot will go bye bye for a few days because of this comment. Just as it already did last year.
Forget about mega-projects announced by Dubai Gov or related entities. It's nothing but an attention whoring press release from a city that would love to play in the big league.
If you care to come around to verify that by yourself you're welcome but be careful what you pack though: http://thetruthaboutdubai.com/?p=4 [thetruthaboutdubai.com]
This is not an city; it's a prison. (Score:4, Interesting)
Jeez, am I the only Slashdaughter that realizes that this is not meant to be a 'city in a building' or a theme park or an oasis, it's meant to be a prison.
The Wackenhut of the world. Every country in the world can send their political prisoners, their purse-snatchers, uppity minorities, and urine-test-failers to Dubai. Where, for a small fee, they will be housed in the biggest, meanest, most-escape-proof, hope-for-humanity-crushing, prison that world has ever seen.
And if the payments stop coming from the original country for the prisoner, they just get chucked outside. Naked. To die in the 120 degree F sun! No mess, no fuss, no packed airplanes dumping political prisoners into the South Atlantic Argentina-style!
Hell, Dubai will even pick-up your prisoners in their old surplus Emirate Airlines Boeings! Tell 'em that they're going to Sweden on an Amnesty International 'Flight to Freedom'! Hell, no one will ever know! (Amnesty International workers are sure to be the first 'guests').
Am I the only Slashdaughter with an evil mind? Or more mature, historically-accurate world view?
And why is Dubai building all this architectural bling in the first place?
Re:Ziggurat (Score:5, Funny)
Summon more ziggurats!
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Re:Ziggurat (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Ziggurat (Score:5, Funny)
dental plan ...
Lisa needs braces
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Re:Ziggurat (Score:5, Funny)
dental plan ...
Lisa needs braces
dental plan
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Re:Ziggurat (Score:4, Funny)
I wonder if these houses can also be upgraded to towers :-)
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Re:Ziggurat (Score:5, Funny)
Imagine how fucking awesome it would be when they build a black citadel nearby :)
1.100.000 people with an average life spann of 80 years = 37.6 deaths / day, at 8 corpses / meat wagon that makes for 5 meat wagons per day!
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Re:Ziggurat (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Ziggurat (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Who Came First (Score:4, Informative)
The silent film "Metropolis" predates "Caves of Steel" by a few decades. It doesn't bother to explain how the city is self-reliant and carbon neutrality is never an issue. It is very much about having a rich upper class living above a poor lower class and taking advantage of their willingness to serve in the dark squalor of the depths of the city.
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