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Lenovo Requires NDA For Windows License Refund
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Aug 28, 2008 01:36 PM
from the deserves-a-raise dept.
from the deserves-a-raise dept.
tykev writes "A customer wanted to return the license for preinstalled Windows Vista Business that came with his Lenovo laptop. After some lengthy negotiations with representatives of Lenovo's technical support and management, he was offered financial compensation for returning the license in the amount of CZK 1950 (USD 130, EUR 78), pending his acceptance of a non-disclosure agreement that would cover the entire negotiations with the company and its results. He declined and published his experiences on a Czech Linux website. The website editors decided to reward the customer for publishing the article by paying him an author's royalty in the same amount as was the offered compensation for returning the license."
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Hardware: Lenovo Removes Linux Option For Home Buyers 380 comments
billybob2 writes "Lenovo has stopped selling laptops pre-installed with Linux on its web site, only 8 months after starting the trial program. This means that home customers won't be able to buy a Thinkpad without paying the Microsoft tax. Word has it that the decision to pull the plug on Linux came down from the highest levels of the Chinese company's corporate headquarters. For those looking to buy full-sized laptops and desktops with Linux pre-loaded Dell, System76, ZaReason and Everex all still offer such products."
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Vista is pants (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Vista is pants (Score:5, Funny)
no it's not
Parent
Re:Vista is pants (Score:5, Funny)
Linux is better
(This post is a violation of your bank's terms of service. Please choose another post instead.)
Parent
Re:Vista is pants Is this in reference to Lloyds? (Score:5, Informative)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/shropshire/7585098.stm [bbc.co.uk]
"A man who chose "Lloyds is pants" as his telephone banking password said he found it had been changed by a member of staff to "no it's not"."
""But what really incensed me was when I was told I could not change it back to 'Lloyds is pants' because they said it was not appropriate.
"I asked if it was 'pants' they didn't like, and would 'Lloyds is rubbish' do? But they didn't think so.
"So I tried 'Barclays is better' and that didn't go down too well either.
"The rules seemed to change, and they told me it had to be one word, so I tried 'censorship', but they didn't like that, and then said it had to be no more than six letters long." "
----
So, this is my position/question:
Why the HELL was a low-level functionary employee able to "see" the true password of a customer? The frackin password should have been a reduced or hashed form so that even if an IT person can copy and paste it in a local system, they could not know the contents and be able to type it in at a point of sales station or an ATM, or on any sites that reject copy-paste-in passwords...
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Re:Vista is pants (Score:5, Informative)
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Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
No. They offered him what he asked for, with conditions. He did not ask for those conditions.
Sounds like they were rather distasteful to him. As they should be. The loss of ones freedom of speech should NEVER be a condition to anything.
NDAs are counterproductive. Learn how to discern people that you can trust and you shouldn't have to rely on them.
I for one, will NEVER sign one, regardless of context. I view them as unconstitutional. Simple as that.
Parent
I read that as "DNA"... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I read that as "DNA"... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:I read that as "DNA"... (Score:5, Funny)
No, that's ADN.
I know because I'm a member...
Parent
Quick overview for speed readers... (Score:5, Funny)
Man buys a laptop from Leno.
Laptop comes with Windows Viagra.
Man insists he doesn't need Viagra, insists on money back.
Chinese authorities confused as to how a man can perform without it, ask for a copy of his DNA.
The Chinese insist that the man keep quiet:
Bootleg copy of Windows (the screen of death is red).
Laptop also contains birth records of the Chinese gymnastic team.
(OK, I admit, I made this part up, but it makes the story better.)
Man publishes his story on web.
Profit!
Parent
Right so now we know the minimum (Score:5, Interesting)
So now we know the minimum we should accept. Time to start negotiating upwards to see what other numbers can be achieved.
That is probably the most effective way to start companies shipping hardware only or Linux pre-installed as the negotiation process will cost money. If 1,000 people went through this process with Lenovo (or Dell, or HP, etc) then we would probably see more progress than 5 years of bitching has managed to achieve.
Kudos to the guy
Right Now, In the U.S. Vista Cost You $349 (Score:5, Informative)
Before anyone goes blathering on about "ufair" this and "innacurate" that, follow my test.
1. Visit Dell.com on two different browser tabs.
2. Tab #1 starts here.http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
3. Tab #2 starts here. http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m1330?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19 [dell.com]
4. Configure the Vista product with the ultimate version. That is roughly feature equivalent to Ubuntu.
5. Pay attention to the hardware options because the Linux product has fewer and generally more storage/RAM.
6. At the end, you should have a spread of about $349.
So, Vista costs the consumer $349 OEM through the consumer URL.
Parent
Re:Right Now, In the U.S. Vista Cost You $349 (Score:5, Insightful)
4. Configure the Vista product with the ultimate version. That is roughly feature equivalent to Ubuntu.
The point isn't to determine how much Windows Ultimate costs ($349 is probably about right), nor is it to perform a feature comparison of Windows vs. Ubuntu. The point is to determine how much the lowest 'Windows tax' is. From what we've seen, standard Windows should get you back about $130. That seems a bit high, as the OEM costs for Windows that I've heard are quite a bit lower. I wonder why they'd offer that high.
Parent
Re:Right Now, In the U.S. Vista Cost You $349 (Score:5, Funny)
But if i save 350$ buying a Ubuntu Dell box, im gonna have to spend 350$ buying vista because i can't make sense out anything on that ubuntu thing.
then ill be stuck having to install windows myself, which is just as bad.
am i not better off just paying 350 for windows on my dell and be done with it ?
hehe.
Parent
Re:Right so now we know the minimum (Score:5, Interesting)
Or they'd publish a fixed price which means you could cost it out. Which after all is what we all want isn't it?
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Re:Right so now we know the minimum (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? I think most people would want their $130 USD back if they knew they qualified for it. It's not a lot of money, but it's not a trifle, either.
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Consise and entertaining (Score:5, Funny)
Sleny operátorky na lince Lenovo byly velice milé. Po vyslechnutí mého poadavku m chtly odmítnout, ale poté, co jsem odcitoval píslunou ást licence, si vyádaly pár dní na zjitní aktuálního stavu od vedení firmy. Tím jsem se viditeln dostal o úrove vý, nebo nyní následovalo kolo telefonních rozhovor.
I dont know what it means but I like it. I think.
Re:Consise and entertaining (Score:4, Funny)
That was my favorite part, too. It started off kind of slowly, but the ending was great. Maybe Stephenson could learn to write in Czech.
Parent
Re:Consise and entertaining (Score:5, Funny)
Hmm.. "Sleny operators on the line Lenovo was very beautiful. After hearing my requirement m chtly refused, but after I odcitoval píslunou part of the licence, the vyádaly few days to zjitní current state of company management. Thus I got the viditeln level amount, or now, followed by round of telephone interview."
Still don't know what it means, but I agree with you.
Parent
Re:Consise and entertaining (Score:5, Informative)
"The operator girls on the Lenovo phone line were very nice. After hearing my request they wanted to reject, but after I cited them the respective part of the licence, they asked for few days to find out the current state from the company management. Obviously I got with that one level higher, as next round of phone talks started"
Parent
Requiring NDA is changing the rules of the game. (Score:5, Insightful)
There go Lenovo's chances on my next laptop purchase.
Re:Requiring NDA is changing the rules of the game (Score:5, Insightful)
going straight to MS
Which, incidentally, he should still be able to do, since he has not given up his license at this time. $260 is a lot better than $130. :D
Layne
Parent
Re:Requiring NDA is changing the rules of the game (Score:4, Interesting)
Why the hell is a NDA agreement required anyway? This is for a refund on a specific part of the total price. The price of Vista. Requiring a NDA for this is stupid unless you're trying to give as little away as possible - but wouldn't/shouldn't that be illegal? :P The cost of Windows on it is not subjective, it's concrete.
I think you'll find the price of vista varies quite a bit depending on who you are. A large OEM like lenovo is going to pay less than the average joe buying a box off the shelf. If you're, say, a public school system who's put some thought into switching to linux, you'll probably pay even less.
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Stupid Lenovo... (Score:5, Insightful)
The real question: (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it Lenovo? If so, is it some sort of routine ass-covering procedure that doesn't make all that much sense? Or is it something that applies to all "there is a not too well known way to get some money from us, we'll do it; but don't popularize it" situations?
Is it Microsoft? They have been historically tight lipped about their OEM agreements and prices, are they attempting to discourage indirect indicators like this one?
Re:The real question: (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason for an NDA is actually fairly obvious. Lenovo's probably eating the cost of the license in this case, and the last thing that it wants is for Czechoslovakians to realize that they can get 78 Euro off of the price of a laptop simply by asking.
Parent
Re:The real question: (Score:5, Informative)
Exactly. By the way, we are just Czechs now, but for Slovaks this procedure could easily apply too.
Parent
The only english story on the site (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder why on a Czech web portal, that one news article was in English. I did a little looking around trying to see if I could find any other pages in English but that was the only one. It was also the only one that had a /. submit script on it. Even the Czech version [abclinuxu.cz] of the story did not have the script.
Re:The only english story on the site (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Meanwhile, Microsoft still got paid for a product that was completely unwanted and unused. This is a great example of the Microsoft Tax in action. Even when their new operating system is a disaster and people refuse to use it, they still get paid, purely on the basis of their market position. This is the kind of reason why Microsoft should be subject to antitrust laws. Normal market forces just don't apply to them.
Re:Big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Big deal (Score:4, Interesting)
And then what? Microsoft just can't be stopped short of using actual force, military, police, or otherwise. They have too much money to give a damn about any fine short of forcing them to pay off the national debt and they're too big for the govt to just say "Nope, you can't see shit anymore".
The only real way to get at them I think would be to offer the equivalent of modern day letters of marque against microsoft and tell everyone "Pirate their shit".
Parent
Czech? (Score:5, Funny)
The website editors decided to reward the customer for publishing the article by paying him an author's royalty in the same amount as was the offered compensation for returning the license."
Lenovo tried to cancel the Czech. Did the editors pay the Czech with a check? I guess I should TRFM and Czech it out.
Situation is not better for resellers (Score:5, Informative)
To my company, the best Lenovo could manage was a "If you bulk purchase 100 laptops of the same type we can negotiate downgrading them to Vista Home, but we will not refund the license.", after about a dozen e-mails.
Dell, on the other hand, refunds licenses after just two minutes on the phone.
Disclaimer: I've been trying to purchase brand-name laptops without an operating system for more than eight years now. Recently I've signed up as reseller for several big laptop manufacturers, who will remain anonymous. It's still impossible to get even a single one of them to accept the EULA and refund licenses to my customers. Also, the EULA says that my company would have to refund my customer, but none of the manufacturers so far gave me a way to get my money back from them. So if you're wondering why every store tells you that refunds don't exist, this might be it.
If you want to sell brand-name stuff without OS, the only choice you have is to contact another reseller who is a key account with the big guys. These resellers can sometimes get you built-to-order machines. Those, on the other hand, are often more expensive than a similar stock machine WITH Vista Pro, so if you think your customers are saving any money there, think again. All you get is the added inconvenience of waiting for the BTO.
If the manufacturers would at least honor the EULA, I could buy those machines with Windows and return the licenses myself, passing the savings on the customer. Since they don't, I can't even do that.
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah I think it's NATO good idea. Ukraine never know where it will stop.
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
I defy anyone to continue this using Uzbekistan or Tajikistan.
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, it's dead.
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
It's a Spain to keep reading this thread. Perhaps you could Sweden the jokes a bit?
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
Mmm, sweet things make me Hungary.
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:4, Funny)
I have some Turkey, if you're interested.
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
When you're ready for bed, let me know. I Kentucky you in.
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
Nor, might I add, would they Dane to send such a refund to Northern Europe. Not a single Finn. As for Southern Europe, I would expect they would be Balkan at every request. Even in their own part of the globe I think Lenovo would claim that their hands are Thai'd. And do so Lao'd and clear.
The only people with any hope at all for satisfaction live in the Hellenic Republic. Their palms are always Greece'd.
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:4, Funny)
Are you going to Finnish that?
Parent
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
What did Delaware?
New Jersey?
Idaho, Alaska.
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Re:Translation request - thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Man wants his money back for a license he did not want from a PC purchase.
Microsoft says: "Sure but you keep your fscking mouth shut when we do this"
Guy said "Eat a box of shnausages"
Guy publishes an article about his experience, gets the money anyway but not from Microsoft. /I think?
Parent