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Unsolicited Offer For My Personal Domain Name?
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Sep 02, 2008 03:23 PM
from the treading-carefully dept.
from the treading-carefully dept.
Batzerto writes "Last Friday I received an unsolicited email offer for my domain — click the link below for the message. Their company name matches my domain, but with a country-specific top level domain (.NL in this case). They do seem to be legitimately using the domain in their country. As for my usage, the domain is my last name(.COM) and I'm only really using it for email. I'm not really that attached to it other than the hassle of changing email addresses. There are other flavors of the domain available (.US for example) that would suit my purposes just fine. So, Slashdot veterans, I ask you, what should I do? I'm leery of making an offer and falling into someone's legal trap. I wouldn't mind getting a chunk of cash out of the deal though."
From: ---
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 4:56 AM
To: ---
Subject: sell your domain ?
Dear Sir,
For my company I need the domain --- .
Is it possible to sell your domain to me?
Best Regards
N. de Robles
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Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:5, Funny)
Google bomb your url with their company name by creating a Slashdot user account with their name and submit thousands of stories each week with your url in the homepage. You can also drop the company's name with an href to your url in CNN comments and on comments for popular blogs to get your pagerank up.
Then inform them that your Search Engine Optimization Chief just caused your URL to be at the top of Google's result list.
If they fail to triple their offer, begin redirecting to goatse. You should see them quadruple their offer then. It's called hardball.
Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:4, Insightful)
The offer does seem legitimate, though. Go for it, submitter!
Parent
Obligatory (Score:5, Funny)
http://xkcd.com/374/ [xkcd.com]
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Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:5, Informative)
You should see them quadruple their offer then. It's called hardball.
Or they bring out the lawyers and everybody loses. It wouldn't be the first time [nissan.com], either.
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Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:5, Informative)
You should see them quadruple their offer then. It's called hardball.
Or they bring out the lawyers and everybody loses. It wouldn't be the first time [nissan.com], either.
I think this link [digest.com] is more informative about the nissan.com issue.
Parent
This is what's wrong with corporations (Score:5, Insightful)
At a certain point, when you realize the guy isn't squatting, you cut him a check for $250K and you're done with it.
Nissan has spent more than that on lawyer's fees and are further from their goal. If I was on the board of directors, I'd ask to have the guy pushing this fired. Not because of the money, but because of poor judgment. If you can't use common sense in obvious things, you probably can't suddenly turn it on for complex issues.
Really, fire the guy at Nissan Motors who keeps pushing this lawsuit, and then pay the guy a few bucks for the domain.
Parent
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you wanted to be really evil and as much of a bastard as a typical domain squatter for some reason, then sure. But why? By doing what you've suggested, you also end up polluting Slashdot, CNN and Google with crap, which is no better than your average link spammer.
There are many domains which people own that they're not particularly attached to and would be happy to sell. For someone looking in from outside, it's reasonable to think that this might be one of them, particularly if it's not immediately clear that the person's using it. (Lack of a website would imply this to some people.)
All they've done so far is politely ask if they can buy it. The request was short on words but that looks more like translation issues rather than an angry demand to hand over from a corporation full of lawyers. It could just as easily be someone's small family business which thought it'd be useful to have .com on the end of their name. How else are they supposed to find out if the owner's interested in selling if not by asking?
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Re:Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
And the voice of reason speaks up.
It doesn't appear to be that hard to be reasonable, does it? I really must try it sometime.
But seriously, I would negotiate a price and probably ask nicely if I can keep an email address on that domain for a while. It's no real hassle for the other side's servers, unless you're getting multi-gigabytes of spam a day. Then at least you've got a good period of time to phase out that address.
Or keep the MX records for your domain and sub-let the www section out to them for $200/year. That way everything essentially just stays the same for you, and they get a .com webpage.
Plenty of options if everyone's talking nicely at the table.
Parent
Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:5, Informative)
No. The submitter has a legitimate cause to use this domain name. He's also free to sell it to anyone at whatever price he/she wishes.
It's mikerowsoft.com all over again.
Parent
Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:5, Informative)
There is an exception to this which is valid in this case. The trademark in question (if it is a trademark, as the submission is not explicit here), is the last name of the person owning the domain. In this case, the last name should take precedence over the trademark [wipo.int] unless it was registered "in bad faith".
It appears that the Respondent registered the Domain Name in order to be identified by his surname, in line therefore with the provision of paragraph 4(c)(ii) of the Policy.[...]The use of one's own surname in a domain name corresponds to a legitimate customary practice and is, as a rule, sufficient evidence of a legitimate right or interest in the domain name. The scope of the Policy is limited to cybersquatting. Trademark owners shall not be allowed to use the Policy to dispossess summarily a third party of a domain name reflecting his or her surname (G.A. Modefine S.A. v. A. R. Mani, WIPO Case No.D2001-0537).
Parent
Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:4, Insightful)
This is a trademark issue. If you ask for money for a domain name that includes their trademark, then they have a legal case against you for domain squatting.
Not if they came to him first. And not if his name is the same as theirs. I can open a store called "Paul Robinson's Department Store" and the currently existing Robinson's Department Store (actually J.W. Robinson or Robinson-May depending on what part of the U.S. they're in) chain has no grounds to stop me (especially if I included the note "Not affiliated with the J.W. Robinson Co." on the entrance door of my store); one may always use one's birth name (or married name in the case of a woman, since men don't change their names when they get married) to do business even if it is identical to an existing company in the same line of business.
Further, they would have to argue that they are well known in the United States and also that he has no legitimate use for the domain. As I just pointed out, one always has a legitimate use of one's own name.
Parent
Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:5, Insightful)
And I would certainly mention that you own it because it is your name. That would give them the reason why you have it, and that you aren't trying to squat on it.
Everyone's talking about lawyers and whatnot... what happened to just being polite? I guess lawyers have ruined that too.
On that note, I wonder if it would hurt your case that you posted the question to Slashdot? It's not hard to figure out the site name as others have posted it already, which would turn up a search result... you get the picture.
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The lawyers are not completely to blame. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:The lawyers are not completely to blame. (Score:4, Funny)
I thought that was vampires.
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Re:The lawyers are not completely to blame. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:The lawyers are not completely to blame. (Score:5, Funny)
The only real difference is the stakes involved...
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Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:5, Interesting)
Everyone's talking about lawyers and whatnot... what happened to just being polite? I guess lawyers have ruined that too.
Actually, I think you've hit on something there. If you go in with the intent of having a low-key, civil discussion, often times things you would say in the course of those discussions may damage your case if things escalate.
In your case, I'd state that you own it because it is your name, and have used it for X number of years to provide services X, Y, and Z for yourself. That should help establish the legitimacy of your ownership, and may (IANAL) protect you against any trademark issues. Given that, you'd obviously be losing something of value and have a transition cost, and then invite them make a reasonable offer.
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Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:5, Insightful)
When Shakespeare wrote "first kill all the lawyers"* his ire was somewhat misdirected.
You know it was Jack Cade, the villian of the piece, that said this right? In a bit of exposition establishing him as a braggart and buffoon? Is attributing to authors quotes from their villians out of context really a good practice?
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Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:5, Insightful)
If you use it for email, you could possibly request that they forward mail to your username for a certain period of time, as part of the sale agreement.
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Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, you can just write them a polite email informing that you use the domain and it is not up for sale. However if they really need the domain, and are willing to recompensate you for the hassle of moving to another domain, you would be willing to help them out.
"It's not for sale, except if you offer me big $$$". What does that make you? Not respectable, I would say. Nothing against selling the name in itself, but don't play childish games (the only reason for which is fear of legal trouble, apparently).
Only in the US could such a simple situation (one party wants to buy, the other wants to sell) be complicated by the fear of losing a lawsuit.
(I know, say something bad about the US of A and be modded down, so be it.)
Parent
Re:Turn the Screws on Their Thumbs (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
On the condition... (Score:5, Interesting)
Sell it, on the condition that you can keep your email address on the domain.
Win-win!
Re:On the condition... (Score:5, Insightful)
The world you live in must be nice.
Parent
Re:On the condition... (Score:5, Insightful)
yeah and i was thinking from the POV of the business. They are going to support this guy who they bought the domain from. the guy doesn't work for us, we don't know him at all and he's going to be able to send out valid emails from my companies domain.
No thanks. Pass.
Parent
Finally a use for the 'itsatrap' tag (Score:5, Interesting)
As you probably noticed yourself, it's likely a legal trap; if you show that you're interested in taking money for the domain name, they will then use that as an argument during legal proceedings that you're a domain name squatter.
So simply don't respond.
Re:Finally a use for the 'itsatrap' tag (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
No, not likely (Score:5, Insightful)
Legal proceedings are expensive, lengthy, and not guaranteed. Thus a company would rather pay a reasonable sum to just get what they want, rather than have a fight. If you make them a reasonable offer, maybe a grand or two for your trouble, they'll likely accept.
The company my father used to work for went through this. They wanted a domain that a guy had. So they contacted him and offered him $10,000. They figured, as it was just a personal site, that he'd jump at it. It was an easy way to get what they wanted, and not a lot of money in the scheme of a company's operations. However, the guy decided that he wanted millions. Well, then they took him to court and won. However it probably cost them over $10,000 in legal fees.
So, if you respond with something like "Yes I'd be willing to sell my domain. However, there is going to be some inconvenience in dealing with a transition. So if you'd agree to $2000 to cover my expenses, I'd be happy to sell." I'd bet they go for it. That's not expensive to a company, and it makes everything real easy.
Parent
Re:No, not likely (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:No, not likely (Score:5, Insightful)
What people don't seem to understand is that really, in the scheme of things, if I own something it is mine. The legal system should protect that. If I don't want to sell it, then I don't, in most cases, have to. One way of saying I don't want to sell it is to offer it for an insane amount of money.
Taking used to be used primarily for government sponsored project. Now it is used because some random company thinks that just because they can make money with a property, they should own it. This is why this question came up, and why the guy should try to protect himself. It is your domain name, fair in square. Even if you are squatting, there is a element of possession being nine tenth of the law. As the parent indicate, there are people who will do anything to take things that they want, unless the owner is willing to accept a token amount to 'voluntarily surrender the property'. This is not good. Sure, maybe trademarks need to be protected, but if my name is Coke, is there some fundamental reason why the beverage company has a higher claim on it than I do? If I had the foresight to register the domain, should I not be allowed to profit off that foresight? Is there something in the free market that one is allowed to make money unless it pisses off the multinationals?
Parent
Re:Finally a use for the 'itsatrap' tag (Score:5, Insightful)
This is /., people would rather get wrapped up in a 1/1,000,000 chance of something being a big trap than suggest this guy try and profit.
I've sold three domains I was legitimately using and made a pretty nice wad of cash. They all initiated with similar emails. The highest one being $19k USD.
Let fear reign and opportunity escape.
Parent
Re:Finally a use for the 'itsatrap' tag (Score:5, Funny)
This is the internet. If you're not browsing with your credibility threshold set to "999,999/1,000,000 offers are scams," then I've got some little blue pills I'd like to sell you - I'm the manager of an implausibly sounding bank in Nigeria, and if you'd just pay some advance fees, I can increase your bust size while you make money at home !
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Re:Finally a use for the 'itsatrap' tag (Score:4, Informative)
Depends on the name & the country. McD's doesn't push trademark restrictions too hard in the UK because Lord McDonald of McDonald told them to lay off or else. In some places, a person's name wins every time. In the US it depends on timing & scope. However, in most instances, trademark violations have to show the potential for confusion - with few exceptions, a personal website cannot be easily confused with a corporate homepage.
In terms of squatting, it would depend, since he's using & has been using the domain for email - the presence or absence of a website is irrelevant to squatting. Showing active use of the domain for some purpose other than ad-parking is usually sufficient to kill a squatting complaint.
Parent
www.zerba.com (Score:5, Informative)
I think this is the website in question.
Don't know if I crossed a line, but it took all of 1 second on the google.
dear slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
A lonely girl has sent me an email seeking a relationship. I am a man and this sounds good. Should I seek to get into a relationship with this unknown but self admitted pretty girl?
Re:dear slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:dear slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
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Sales 101 (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell them you'll entertain offers. If they throw out a number, it can only go up. If you throw out a number, it can only go down.
*NEVER* throw out a number (Score:5, Insightful)
If the domain were just his name, none of this would matter. But the fact that the company's name matches the domain makes it a potential trademark dispute, so you must be mindful of ICANN's Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy [icann.org]. It explicitly lists several types of "bad faith" registrations, and the first one is acquiring a domain primarily for the purposes of selling it. If you throw out a number, that can be interpreted as evidence of intent to sell, and thus bad faith and grounds for losing your domain.
Instead, get them to make an offer first. Something like, "I hadn't really thought about selling it, but my bills have been getting kind of high recently. How much were you thinking?" Although the most bulletproof is, "Sorry, not interested" and hope they make an offer.
Go to Moniker's domain auction site [moniker.com] for some ballpark figures of how much domains similar to yours are selling for.
Parent
Offer to Post Link (Score:5, Insightful)
DNS is your friend (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep it, but offer to lease DNS records to them. Basically, rent "www IN A ....." while keeping control of the domain itself.
I had a good sale (Score:5, Informative)
I recently sold my domain to a french company that reached me in a similar way. I told them i had no interest in selling the domain as I use it for personal and business reasons. I told them if they wanted to buy my company, then to make a reasonable offer (but again I had no interest in selling the domain at this time).
They provided a very attractive offer and I did end up selling the domain. They simply redirect the .com to their french site. I got 6 months of email forwarding.
My experience was good, but that does not seem to be what people here are saying...
No need to be....... (Score:5, Insightful)
......a dick.
Seriously. We all complain about the bullshit that surrounds us on a daily basis here at /. yet we see posts like the 1st one up. I am hoping he was being funny/sarcastic (as he was properly modded).
Try being the good guy, write them an HONEST email explaining your concerns, and ask them for a reasonable offer. You will always retain the right to reject (unless you foolishly give it away). So, what have you got to lose by being honest about things up front? IF, and I emphasize, IF, it ends up in a courtroom, you will have already scored some points in that you will be able to prove a good-faith effort to remedy the situation.
While I can agree with the "talk to a lawyer" suggestions, to some extent, I do feel that lawyers are sometimes wholly unnecessary and are merely a moneypit. Send the email, get a response, and then decide whether or not a lawyer is called for. And don't forget your gut. It talks to you. Listen.
Maybe the sender is lonely and wants a response? (Score:5, Insightful)
The letter is very unbusinesslike. Its grammar is poor. It doesn't have the 'look and feel' of something legitimate. Most interestingly, the email conveys absolutely nothing to identify the potential purchaser.
If somebody doesn't have the time or ability to compose a good email, I would suspect that they wouldn't have the money to fund a substantial domain name purchase either.
If somebody isn't going to tell you (verifiably) who they are, why would you want to do business with them?
This smells bad.
Alternate hypothesis (Score:4, Interesting)
Maybe the sender is:
- a person who does not have English as their first language, and/or
- a techie?
That would account for the rough grammar and the informality.
I mean, seriously, if an IT guy from .NL wrote it, would you really expect it to read like an American lawyer wrote it?
Parent
Try to help them out (Score:5, Insightful)
Think about it from their perspective. They're probably worried they're missing out on a small number of customers who inadvertantly go to your site instead of theirs.
I would guess their lost revenue is low to very low, so don't get greedy. There are plenty of reasonable alternatives that could be worked out to make you both happy. Examples:
A priminent link on your website to theirs would be my favourite - sell it to them as 'advertising space' or donate it if they seem nice and you can't be bothered collecting a few dollars.
Offer to sell them a HTTP redirect service and keep the domain yourself.
Sell them the www subdomain but keep the MX pointing to you.
Sell them the domain and ask for an email alias.
Think of it as a normal business transaction between two individuals. Bargain in good faith and you're not opening yourself up to much legally. Try to charge something outrageous and you're likely to fall foul of the squatter rules.
This happened to me (Score:5, Insightful)
This happened to me back in 1999. Actually, it happened to me a lot, but 1999 was when I finally won the domain name lottery.
I told him the same thing I tell everyone who asks: "Well, I'm not really looking to sell my domain name but feel free to make me an offer."
He said, "I'll give you $5000."
I said, "That's a reasonable offer, but I have both the .com and the .org and I'd want to sell them as a pair."
He said, "Okay, I'll give you $5000 each."
I said, "That's a very fair offer. I need to think about what it would take me to change my address and migrate everything off the name."
A week later he called and asked for my decision. I said, "You made me a very fair offer. I'm still thinking it through. Give me a little more time."
A few days later he called and asked for my decision. I said, "You made me a very fair offer. I'm still thinking it through. Give me a little more time."
He said, "Look, I need to move forward, have graphics made for my business and so on. If you'll decide now, I'll double my offer."
I said, "Give me one hour. I'll call you back in an hour."
An hour later I said, "$20k? Done."
Down payment on my house, right before the real estate market headed for the sky.
I've done it; exact opposite, though (Score:5, Informative)
Several years ago I registered a domain name for something I was trying which I was thinking about. Some guy, whose last name was the same as the domain I registered asked me if I'd be interested in selling it. Well, I needed the money so I quoted a reasonable offer. After the check cleared I did a change of the owner from me to him.
I took his personal check because he was in the U.S., the rules are very different when it's an international transaction. (I once paid for a shareware registration to a guy in Canada using a personal check drawn on a U.S. bank, I presume Canadian banks have no problem handling those; but I wouldn't accept anything but a guaranteed payment for an international transaction.)
Since the possibility of fraud is high when the buyer is outside the same country (on low value transactions where there's no money to chase them if you can't recover it), you make sure it's a guaranteed payment. I would suggest either wire transfer (and make sure the payment additionally includes your bank's incoming wire transfer fee) or Western Union for the same reason scammers use them: so the money is guaranteed and can't be revoked or a fraudulent transfer such as a forged check. Especially since the funds transfer is from a foreign country, it might cost you $30 or more to clear a check issued on a bank in some other country, presuming you don't get the check back in six or eight weeks as a forgery. If they want a written bill of sale or something, fine. But you get guaranteed payment before they get the domain.
Another option if the amount of the sale is not over the limit: set up a new, fresh account using Paypal or Google Checkout that goes to a new checking account at a bank (other than the one you do business with now) that will allow you to open one with no monthly fee (and check the paperwork they give you, sometimes they sneak fees in there), then, once the transfer clears, take all the money out except a token amount ($1) in cash, and then deposit the cash in your other account. Or close the account as you no longer need it.
This way, they can't undo the transaction and you've got the cash. Even if they try to reverse the transaction, the bank can't reverse it because you didn't use paper; if you took a bank check from them they could reverse the payment to your bank. Also you don't want to use the same bank as your own because they can use set off if the other side tries to renege on the transaction.
In fact, if they are going to use wire transfer, use a new account because I suspect the information needed for an incoming wire is the same as could be used for an outgoing one, and they might be able to siphon money out of your account. Or check with your bank to find out how to have a wire transfer that doesn't allow them to extract money from you, but I think wire transfers are ridiculous because of the fact that your bank charges you for the incoming transfer as well.
Automatic red flag: if they offer you more and want you to arrange something to send them money back. 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of the time it's a scam for them to rip someone else off and leave you on the hook to make the person they stole from whole, since they can't be found, but you can.
I just went and looked it up for an example transaction, a Western Union transfer of $1,000 from Netherlands to the U.S. is about 711 Euros and costs around 41 Euros for the transaction, probably less than it would cost them for both ends of a wire transfer. If you're charging less than $1000 for the domain, the transfer fee to them will probably be less.
If you do these things and the transaction goes through, it hasn't cost you anything but a little time and you've protected yourself.
Otherwise it's no different from selling anything you own to someone else. A domain name has a registered owner, you transfer the registration to someone else, they own it. Most personal property doesn't have registered owners, if you sell something they just t
Re:Trap (Score:4, Informative)
Since this is his actual name, it's technically not domain squatting. Here's what I'd do. Just ask for a few thousand dollars. It's not enough to piss off the buyer, or to convince him to send lawyers to take the domain by force.
I know someone here in Chapel Hill, NC who realized how slow the South was picking up on the web. He bought several domain names, of local businesses, and asked for $2,000 any time they asked for the domain. The amount was too low to bother with lawyers, so they just paid it. It's slimy, and I wouldn't do such a thing, but in this case, the guy's just being asked for his personal domain.
Here's my favorite domain related suit [digest.com]. This guy's name is Nissan, and so is his business.
Parent
And why did *you* own chrysler-dodge-jeep.com? (Score:5, Interesting)
If you were a car dealer or specialized repair shop, then it may have been reasonable for you to own a domain using several of their trademarks. That's certainly too broad a set of categories to be a likely hobbyist organization. Sounds like you were cybersquatting.
That's a different case from acquiring generic names (which can be rather dubious as well), and a much different case from what the main article was about, which is somebody who owns a domain that's based on his own name.
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