Slashdot Log In
Unholy Matrimony? Microsoft and Cray
Posted by
timothy
on Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:47 AM
from the sick-of-so-called-supercomputers-running-linux dept.
from the sick-of-so-called-supercomputers-running-linux dept.
fetusbear writes with a ZDNet story that says "'Microsoft and Cray are set to unveil on September 16 the Cray CX1, a compact supercomputer running Windows HPC Server 2008. The pair is expected to tout the new offering as "the most affordable supercomputer Cray has ever offered," with pricing starting at $25,000.' Although this would be the lowest cost hardware ever offered by Cray, it would also be the most expensive desktop ever offered by Microsoft."
Related Stories
[+]
Cray's CX1 Desktop Supercomputer, Now For Sale 294 comments
ocularb0b writes "Cray has announced the CX1 desktop supercomputer. Cray teamed with Microsoft and Intel to build the new machine that supports up to 8 nodes, a total of 64 cores and 64Gb of memory per node. CX1 can be ordered online with starting prices of $25K, and a choice of Linux or Windows HPC. This should be a pretty big deal for smaller schools and scientists waiting in line for time on the world's big computing centers, as well as 3D and VFX shops."
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:5, Funny)
I mean, come on, this thing's probably gotta play some pretty good games....
Let's see Toms Hardware and Anandtech put one of these babies through their paces!
My question is, how big does your Word document have to be for it to take a second to scroll from the top to the bottom of the document.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know, but somehow I suspect that they will find a way of filling the whole thing with cludgy programs which nobody wants. It'll probably end up being about as fast as a P2.
When has MS ever seen extra capacity and said to themselves that those cycles belong to the customer?
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:4, Interesting)
Like the linux kernel developers are any better...every OS maker is greedy about increased CPU power. I first ran Linux in 1995 and it isn't that much faster now.
Parent
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:5, Insightful)
Like the linux kernel developers are any better...every OS maker is greedy about increased CPU power. I first ran Linux in 1995 and it isn't that much faster now.
Well, I guess if you want to go back to pine for mail, it might be pretty quick.
Parent
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:5, Interesting)
Good point: mutt, for example, is still the fastest emailreader ive ever seen.
And yeah. Its much faster now than in 98.
Parent
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:4, Insightful)
When has MS ever seen extra capacity and said to themselves that those cycles belong to the customer? Like the linux kernel developers are any better...every OS maker is greedy about increased CPU power. I first ran Linux in 1995 and it isn't that much faster now.
I just use WindowMaker as my desktop and turn off all the services I don't want. Its quite fast for me.
Parent
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:5, Funny)
Like the linux kernel developers are any better...every OS maker is greedy about increased CPU power. I first ran Linux in 1995 and it isn't that much faster now.
It would be if you'd upgraded your machine.
Parent
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:5, Funny)
It would be if you'd upgraded your machine.
...what?! But that would reset his uptime!
Parent
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:5, Insightful)
Given that the Linux kernel is used in embedded systems with a tiny fraction of your desktop's RAM and CPU power, I'd call it pretty darned safe that the kernel isn't your problem. It's gotten somewhat bigger -- which is why 2.2 and 2.4 kernels are still in use in smaller environments -- but on any system with over 100MB of RAM, you're not going to notice.
Now, if you want to complain about application developers taking advantage of hardware resources (inclusive of the GNOME and KDE folks, browser developers, and the like), feel free.
Parent
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the new kernels are faster.
My Pentium 600 running slackware with a 2.4.10 kernel is a lot slower than my Pentium 600 running debian 4.0r2 with a 2.6.x kernel.
Parent
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:5, Informative)
More importantly, newer kernels *feel* faster. In particular the kernel preemption makes an enormous difference as far as perceived speed goes (for a desktop user).
When I upgraded from 2.4.24 to one of the early 2.6 releases I was astounded at how much faster things felt. On a very modest laptop (1.3 GHz Pentium-M, 512M RAM, 30G 5400 RPM hard drive) from a fresh boot I fired up OpenOffice, Konqueror, Eclipse, Firefox (might have still been Mozilla then, I forget) all at the same time, and the desktop was still liquid smooth and completely responsive. Needless to say, a similar task on 2.4 felt much slower, as actually getting the K menu to open again so I could select another program to start out of it took longer.
Newer kernels are actually faster in a lot of cases too, particularly with scalability, but lots of other optimizations have been done as well, as many kernel developers keep a very close eye on performance. Also, GCC has gotten better over time, and likely optimizes the kernel quite a bit better now than it could several years ago.
Parent
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:4, Interesting)
There was a Microsoft podcast, where some Microsoft programmers were being asked about the future of the API they developed and one thought was that every DCOM/COM/kernel object would have its own lock, as the attitude was "Hey, you will have 80 cores on every machine, you will be able to afford it!".
Parent
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:5, Funny)
I hear it'll play Crysis on Medium.
Parent
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:5, Funny)
But will it run Vista?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
damnit, I knew this would be in the article before I'd get a chance to post it.
$25,000 pc's ought to be good enough for everyone.
Meanwhile, I wonder where the performance of this system is in comparison to other linux based systems?
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:4, Informative)
you tell me [cray.com]
Parent
Re:What's the frame rate and resolution? (Score:4, Insightful)
The users shouldn't be anywhere near this system in a desktop environment! The skills needed for a desktop application DO NOT APPLY to HPC computing!
Parent
The Microsoft Tax (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The Microsoft Tax (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, if you go to the Cray site and configure a system, it is available with Red Hat Linux for no cost (getting HPC adds $469)
Parent
Ah, so THIS is what Vista is supposed to run on. (Score:4, Funny)
n/t
hardly news (Score:4, Funny)
Oh please. This really isn't "news for nerds". Maybe news for fools, but all of us here have known for months that this would be coming. I mean, what else can you imagine that would run Vista smoothly?
Re:hardly news (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:hardly news (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Finally (Score:4, Funny)
Doubtful... (Score:4, Interesting)
If they're running their shopping cart on it. I just tried to configure one and got the following error. I mean, honestly, what has happened to Cray if they're releasing applications that don't handle simple CRUD exceptions? This would earn an F in high school level computer science and released into production should be enough to tank their stock:
Server Error in '/configurator' Application.
An item with the same key has already been added.
Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.
Stack Trace:
[ArgumentException: An item with the same key has already been added.] ...
Version Information: Microsoft .NET Framework Version:2.0.50727.42; ASP.NET Version:2.0.50727.42
Parent
Antivirus (Score:5, Funny)
I bet Symantec Antivirus can get it on its knees.
Re:Antivirus (Score:5, Funny)
I bet Symantec Antivirus can get it on its knees.
In these kind of deals, they start off the other way around!
Parent
This thing... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This thing... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes Cray could do better, but the Cray of today is not the Cray of yesterday.
It's as close to 'in-name-only' as you can get, considering the number of times it's been bought off and fleeced.
Parent
Re:This thing... (Score:5, Interesting)
Because by saying it runs Windows, they are implicitly defining the development tools and APIs that it supports.
So an organization that has Windows devs but needs more horsepower is likely to turn to this before looking at a Beowolf cluster.
Now, writing massively parallel code is admittedly a different skill set than writing ordinary desktop or web development, but starting with the same tools and environments gives them at least a head start.
Parent
Desktop? (Score:3, Informative)
From the article:
If space is a problem, not to worry, itâ(TM)s compact enough to fit in a broom closet.
From the summary:
... it would also be the most expensive desktop ever offered by Microsoft.
I know, the summary was an attempt to bash MS.
Re:!supercomputer (Score:5, Interesting)
A supercomputer turns all tasks into IO bound problems.
A mainframe turns all tasks into a CPU bound problem.
A microcomputer just runs awhile and crashes.
Parent
Well, since you posted it twice..... (Score:5, Insightful)
not trolling boys, so relax, its an OPINION.
For many of us coders, geeks and otherwise technically inclined here on Slashdot, this issue is one where for some, it is an emotional outlet, where few others exist. Others have issues pertaining to Sex, Families, LIFE, and other things to massage our emotional minds over.
To many of us, Microsoft represents something we love to hate, because we can. There is a disconnect between what works in technology, and what works in business. Many of us downplay the importance of Marketing, Leverage, Tie-in, Competition Analysis, and other stuff you don't learn in your CS program, but only in Business school.
We have a hard time seeing Microsoft as a business, responsible to its shareholders above all else, we embrace those orgs who see themselves as some kind of technical crusader, ready to right the wrongs in our industry, using truth, justice, and the American way.
It is the rare geek who can get beyond the technical arguments and embrace the quite logical reasons for why Microsoft has so much marketshare today. The concept of "Barriers to Entry" is rarely discussed when pushing an alternative to MS Office, Exchange Server, or other Microsoft tools.
Instead, we choose to blame the stupid CIO, who in a moment of insanity, decides to go with the Microsoft solution, like 90% of his peers, when he could be that brave, intrepid warrior for good, by going with Linux Servers, Open Office and more.
I mean, who actually uses those integrated Calendar/Scheduling thingies anyway, dammit? If I want to book a conference room 2 weeks in advance, I'll hang a post-it note on the damn door! Easy, and I dont have to deal with integrity testing that blasted Exchange database!
You see, there is nobility in suffering.
If it takes me a week to get my DVD-RW to burn disks under Linux, who cares, if I am a better person for the effort?
It is simply a case of the quest for perfection acting as an enemy of the "good enough".
This is a highly simplistic argument, tonque in cheek, and all that, but true.
And, as always, I got karma to burn bitches, so if you disagree, give it your best shot!
Parent
BSOD (Score:3, Funny)
This thing is able to generate the BSOD faster than anything you've EVER imagined.
Re:BSOD (Score:5, Funny)
It comes at you so fast, the BSOD is blue shifted to purple.
Parent
Re:BSOD (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:BSOD (Score:5, Funny)
I came to this thread for +5 Funnies like I couldn't even imagine.
I was not disappointed.
Parent
Non-useless link (Score:5, Informative)
instead of bloggy blather, you can go to the source [cray.com].
Re:Non-useless link (Score:5, Funny)
I got a 503: Unavailable. These guys should get a Cray or something to run their webserver on
Parent
Poor Seymour (Score:5, Insightful)
The man is spinning in his grave!
Just let Cray pass into history.
And yes, here's a couple jokes (Score:5, Funny)
Everyone else has probably done the usual "how fast can a Cray show a BSoD?" gags, so all I was left with was:
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If you're not in marketing, you need to be. Seriously.
Who actually wants this? (Score:4, Insightful)
As someone who does science HPC for a living, I am confused. Who actually wants Windows for HPC? What value does it provide that Linux or UNIX doesn't? I've never heard of a single use case where Linux or some UNIX wasn't better by miles.
Oh I don't know... (Score:4, Funny)
I'm sure I could configure a Mac Pro that costs more than that, and it will run Windows too.
Re:Too dinosaurs working together. (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Too dinosaurs working together. (Score:5, Insightful)
You have to realize that communication between nodes in a cluster of off the shelf PCs is going to be much slower than the inter-node communication channels used in a Cray.
Any work that requires a lot of communication will always run faster on a real supercomputer versus a cluster of PCs. There will always be a niche for Cray, but their prices will continue to go up as more and more of their repeat customers realize they don't really need what they're getting.
Parent
Re:Too dinosaurs working together. (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Too dinosaurs working together. (Score:5, Interesting)
I disagree, but then again, I work in the HPC industry.
1. Standard computers have already taken over all of those jobs that used to require a supercomputer. There's no more market to loose. HPC is a 6-7 billion dollar market. The TAM is growing slower than the rest of the IT industry, but it's still a large niche market.
2. Clusters got really popular for a few years, but have really fallen out of favor at the high end of the HPC market. That said, the difference between a high-end super, and a cluster, is rather small. Thankfully the price difference is shrinking too. Moreover, this product IS a cluster. It looks like an attempt, by Cray, to get into the low end of the HPC market. Cray, like everyone else, would like to be the company taking market share away from itself, rather than let someone else take it.
3. IBM has a compelling strategy of reusing their high-end POWER-X processor super-servers, and selling them as supercomputers. The problem with this, is that they are obscenely expensive as supercomputers. A high-end database server has a whole pile of functionality that is completely unnecessary for HPC jobs, both in hardware, and in software. Big iron servers are also WAY more expensive, per-processor, than a super. As such, IBM is also making supers out of commodity clusers, commodity clusters with CELL coprocessors, and BlueGene, which is much closer to CrayXT than it is to an IBM mainframe or superserver. I would argue that IBM's diversity may work against it, in the HPC market, as it tries to fit a round peg into a square hole.
I'm not sure Cray will be very successful with this CX1 product, or generally, selling to the low-end HPC market. That, however, is not reason to believe that there is no need for venders specialized in HPC systems. Cray has made quite a comeback, in the last few years. The reason one thinks of Cray as a dinosaur, is that the HPC market is so much smaller now, relative to the entire IT industry, compared to the 1980s. Nonetheless, it's still an important niche.
Parent
Re:No so, it can run vista smoothly, if... (Score:5, Interesting)
I beg to differ, I was running it just fine with only 512mb or ram on a 2.39ghz celeron processor. Once I turned off all the eye candy there were no performance issues.
It's probably the only case I can think of where the minimum requirements were at all realistic.
Parent
Re:Legacy? (Score:4, Insightful)
Surprisingly enough, people choose Windows for reasons other than legacy. Maybe they have a lot of knowledgeable Windows developers, or the company has some stupid policy about which OSes you can use, or maybe they actually prefer to work with Windows.
Parent