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Google Pushes Back Against US Copyright Treaty
Posted by
samzenpus
on Tue Sep 23, 2008 05:37 PM
from the don't-upset-the-google dept.
from the don't-upset-the-google dept.
Hugh Pickens writes "Internet companies led by Google joined groups representing Web users to challenge the Bush administration's bid to toughen international enforcement against copyright pirates. The companies said the US courts and Congress are still working out the correct balance between protecting copyrights and the free exchange of information on the Web and a treaty could be counterproductive. 'There's this assumption that what is good for Disney is what's good for America, but that's an oversimplification,' said Jonathan Band, an intellectual property lawyer representing libraries and high-tech companies. 'There's also what's good for Yahoo and Google.' The US, Japan, Canada and other nations said last year that they would begin negotiations on an agreement aimed at cracking down on counterfeiting of such goods as watches and pharmaceuticals, and the piracy of copyrighted materials, such as software and music recordings. A leaked draft of the deal showed that the treaty could force Internet service providers to cooperate with copyright holders."
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WTF?! (Score:5, Insightful)
"There's this assumption that what is good for Disney is what's good for America, but that's an oversimplification," said Jonathan Band, an intellectual property lawyer representing libraries and high-tech companies. "There's also what's good for Yahoo and Google."
What about what's good for PEOPLE????!!!!
Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Funny)
That went straight out the window ages ago. Didn't you get the memo?
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Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Interesting)
No, they just inserted the word 'rich' in front of people.
Sure. What do you expect when you elect people who are richer than average and spend their time in richer societal circles.
Politicians have a good deal of self interest just like everyone else. If you elect people who aren't "ordinary" citizens, then you won't get people who represent ordinary citizens. It is as simple as that.
That is why I support randomocracy. Select politicans by random. It is fair and ensures that no societal special interests get any priority.
Of course, there will always be protesters to the idea, claiming that the average citizen is an idiot and that elections stops those from getting elected. However, looking at some of those who actually are elected right now, you can see that that argument doesn't make a lot of sense. Intelligence is currently not a prerequisite for being elected. Charisma, advertising and connections are.
Also, if you really want to ensure some qualifications you can always have those elected perform a competency test before being allowed to serve as a politican.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with that is numbers.
Even statisticians say you need more than a few hundred to get a good sample, and I know I certainly don't want to be represented by one random person in my state (they are likely to be as radical as me, but in a different direction).
I agree that in principal it would be better, certainly making it so being conniving was not a benefit, and probably be harder to rig too (we have already figured out how to keep things fair in the lotto for example). But do we really want thou
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
People in power SHOULD be rich. Say what you want but rich people are less prone to lobbying and bribery. They also want to protect their possessions, so they are less likely to do something truly stupid.
Yeah, that theory has worked so well in the US......NOT.
This isn't some 3rd world country we are talking about where goverment earn so little that they have to support themselves via bribery. The salaries are good enough to support a family without problem.
You still get gluttony corruption, but that is just as likely to affect rich people because it has little to do with actual need for money and more to do with a want for more.
Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Funny)
Quick! Everybody hide!
:-D
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Re:WTF?! (Score:4, Informative)
Quick! Everybody hide!
:-D
Quick! Everybody VOTE!! :)
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Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:WTF?! (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Funny)
Are there virgins anymore?
Wow. You must be really new here.
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Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep in mind the quote was brief and may have been taken out of context. He may have just been talking about the motivation of the pro-buisiness lobbyists.
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Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Insightful)
If I had modpoints, you'd get +1 Funny from me.
If Democracy actually gave power to the people, it would have been abolished a long time ago.
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Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:WTF?! (Score:4, Interesting)
A bunch of wealthy educated greek men who have more in common than not is not a significant scale.
Realistically, Athenian democracy wasn't a whole heck of a lot different than what we have now, they just had a slightly larger congress, and no one voted for them.
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Re:WTF?! (Score:4, Insightful)
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Vote with your wallets... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The proble mis when they have the right to affect your rights even if you don't use their products. Like the iPod searching border guards we're all afraid ACTA might create.
Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Insightful)
You submit a couple hundred grand in financing to your representative, then you'll have a voice too.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Do they have well funded lobbyists?
That's an idea...maybe the people need a federal office of lobbying for lobbying for the PEOPLE?
Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Funny)
Forget people, think of the CHILDREN! If we don't protect intellectual property rights, there could be MICKEY MOUSE PORN!
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This treaty is being done behind closed doors... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's all the information I need.
They know it won't get passed if it's done publicly.
Re:This treaty is being done behind closed doors.. (Score:5, Insightful)
They can pass their little secret treaties, but how long and how seriously do they think people who are not privy to these secret meetings will honor these treaties?
If our rights as common people are being so openly snubbed, then this means the end of the copyright, because no one is going to respect it.
This is already happening, but I am surprised these copyright idiots don't see that what they are doing, these secret meetings and taking into consideration only "powerful" interests is destroying what they want to accomplish. They forget that without people getting on board of this train it is going nowhere fast.
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One of the few bright spots of DMCA... (Score:5, Informative)
was the "safe harbor" provision. It basically kept the ISP's and websites for the most part out of the net-cop business.
btw: When one of the few very profitable American companies in this current economy makes a statement like
"It really could be used as a way of restricting the growth of U.S. Internet companies overseas"
perhaps the US government should listen
Re:One of the few bright spots of DMCA... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, if you define "bright" as "not completely black, but still 99% without any light"
The safe-harbor provisions are still stacked 100% in favour of big-media, and against ISPs and websites (to say nothing of the American people, whom (according to the constitution) copyright is *supposed* to benefit.)
I think you meant, required to benefit. That's why it's in the Constitution. That's why all such laws are completely and irrevocably unConstitutional.
... can any lawyers out there enlighten us as to how the Constitution can be overridden in the case of treaties with other countries?
Treaties now
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, depending on the specific way your state joined the union, and the state and federal laws and the constitution, it could possibly need an amendment to the constitution for it to be legally binding. I think that happened with NAFTA (that it was 'passed' by the Senate and Congress). And that also had some powerful, well established businesses fighting it so the US could retain their protectionist policies for various industries.
For this fight, I would say more it is more lopsided, that there are more
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Ah, you have now discovered that there is something known as 'separation of powers' within the US Government. The Executive Branch is charge with enforcing laws. If it doesn't like certain laws it doesn't have to enforce them very hard. It also doesn't have to tell Congress about everything it thinks or does. There is no Congressional oversight of the Executive.
A law that requires the President to retain his emails is very likely to be considered unconstitutional should it be taken to the Supreme Court.
Ther
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Untrue. The Senate has right of confirmation of appointees. Even in the military, officers are confirmed by the Senate. Congress can also regulate Executive agencies such as the FCC, FTC, SEC and other 3 letter agencies. They are Constitutionally mandated to do so as part of the "power of the purse". How long
Many countries have happily ignored... (Score:5, Informative)
copyrights and patents.
Germany used to be quite famous for making fakes of machines used in the British textile manufacturing effort (right down to copying the name of the manufacturer). Many European countries didn't bother with patent protection as it interferred with their ability to make cheap knock offs.
If Einstein had been a chemist, he wouldn't have been working in the Swiss patent office, because at the time, the Swiss believed that you couldn't patent anything chemical. Canada didn't recongize drug patents until the 1960s (if memory serves).
This rich-country enforcement of patents and copyright is "kicking away the ladder" - most first-world countries conveniently ignored patents during their development, when it was to their economic benefit to be able to rip technology off from more well-to-do nations.
Re:Many countries have happily ignored... (Score:5, Informative)
Your examples neglect the most prominent example of this - namely the Hollywood movie industry.
You know why California is the center of the major studios' world? Because they we getting hammered by enforcement of patents when they were on the east coast.
Hollywood owes it's existence to it's deliberate evasion of "intellectual property" laws.
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Some historical links: Hollywood v. Edison (Score:5, Informative)
Well, it's not authoritative (I'm at work and don't have time to dig up primary sources), but here's an overview of what happened:
Studios flee to Hollywood[1]
In the early 1900s, filmmakers began moving to the Los Angeles area to get away from the strict rules imposed by Thomas Edison's Motion Picture Patents Company in New Jersey. Since most of the moviemaking patents were owned by Edison, independent filmmakers were often sued by Edison to stop their productions.
To escape his control, and because of the ideal weather conditions and varied terrain, moviemakers began to arrive in Los Angeles to make their films. If agents from Edison's company came out west to find and stop these filmmakers, adequate notice allowed for a quick escape to Mexico.
Working without disturbance from Edison, the Biograph Company moved west with actors Blanche Sweet, Lillian Gish, Mary Pickford, Lionel Barrymore, and others, to make their films. After beginning filming in Los Angeles, the company decided to explore the neighboring area and stumbled across Hollywood.
Biograph made the first film in Hollywood, entitled In Old California. After hearing of Biograph's praise of the area, other filmmakers headed west to set up shop.
The first motion picture studio was built in 1919, in nearby Edendale, just east of Hollywood, by Selig Polyscope Company, and the first one built in Hollywood was founded by filmmaker David Horsley's general manager Al Christie in 1911, in an old building on the southeast corner of Sunset Boulevard and Gower Street. Movie studios began to crop up all over Hollywood after Christie's appearance, including ones for Cecil B. DeMille in 1913, the Charlie Chaplin Studio in 1917, and many others.
[1]: http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h3871.html [u-s-history.com]
[2]: http://webpages.dcu.ie/~flynnr/hollywood_history_1891_-_1917.htm [webpages.dcu.ie] (interesting timeline)
[3]: http://www.cobbles.com/simpp_archive/edison_trust.htm [cobbles.com] (details on Edison's monopoly, which Hollywood broke)
Primary sources would take longer than I have to dig up, but you get the idea.
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Re:Many countries have happily ignored... (Score:4, Insightful)
To play MAFIAA's advocate, America is more and more producing ideas rather than tangible goods. If we want to maintain our trade surplus* we need to protect the value of what we produce. Of course, I don't agree with HOW we're doing it, but I can at least see the reasoning. Imagine if piracy actually hurt the producers, this would be an issue.
*by which I mean prevent further increase to the trade deficit.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The politicians have deliberately forsaken our manufacturing base.
This does not, however, mean we should be enforcing some perverse imaginary property in an attempt to maintain economic dominance.
What we should be doing is abandoning the policies which are killing our manufacturing sector (subsidies, protectionism, bailouts, FTA's) and encouraging a resurgence.
This policy of intellectual property as some kind of export generally depends upon us maintaining a military which is onerously expensive. This is not something which can be perpetually maintained.
sorry, "i don't agree" does not equate to flamebait. I have karma to burn so i'll requote it, this time with the bonus active.
Re:Many countries have happily ignored... (Score:5, Insightful)
The point was that patents benefit rich, developed countries. Ignoring patents and copyright benefits poor countries (who, by the way, rarely have unions, pensions, or all that other first-world stuff you mentioned).
The World Bank and IMF have made up a fairy tale that the developed countries of the world became rich thanks to free trade and patents, which is crap. They became rich thanks to trade barriers, tariffs and turning a blind eye.
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Re:Many countries have happily ignored... (Score:5, Informative)
The fact that these countries had to copy the British inventions to compete shows how their own (patent less) systems failed to promote innovation within their own societies.
Right - because it's much harder to innovate than copy.
From Intellectual Property in Free Trade Agreements, by Sanya Reid Smith:
"If developing countries broaden and lengthen their intellectual property protection beyond their current treaty obligations while they still have reduced capacity to generate their own intellectual property, they can expect to see their royalty outflow increase. For example, according to the Malaysian Governmentâ(TM)s 9th Malaysia Plan, in 2005 there was already estimated to be a net outflow of royalties of US $1.7 billion."
Patents cost developing countries (who rarely have much patented) yet benefit countries where a large number of valuable patents reside.
The Swiss did NOT believe that "you could not patent anything chemical". That is ridiculous
From Intellectual Property in Free Trade Agreements, by Sanya Reid Smith:
"Prior to TRIPS, countries were able to tailor their level of IP protection to suit their level of development. Many of todayâ(TM)s industrialised countries such as the USA, Europe,5 Japan, South Korea and Taiwan did not have high levels of IP protection until it suited them. For example Switzerland did not allow patents on chemicals until 1978; Italy, Sweden and Switzerland did not allow patents on medicines until 1978 and Spain did not allow patents on chemicals or medicines until 1992 because it said it could not afford the higher medicine prices as a result of patents."
I am not sure what planet you live on, but it's not earth, Bizarro Slashdot Poster.
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Re:Many countries have happily ignored... (Score:4, Interesting)
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Already way off balance (Score:5, Insightful)
The correct balance would cut copyrights back to 14 years, require disclosure of source code to receive copyright on software, ban business method patents, and ban the use of technologies that prevent a work from entering the public domain. The government is going the opposite direction it should if it's interesting in establishing a proper balance.
Three Strikes, you're out (Score:4, Interesting)
My suggestion: One Copyright of 25 years, with two renewals of 25 years each. Then its OVER.
Really, the I would only let Natural Persons have renewal rights. Corporations would just have to live with expirations as a price of doing business. Just like replacing old equipment after a few years, you write it off like a depreciation.
My counter (Score:5, Interesting)
And my counter offer would be 10 years, once and no more.
As an alternative: first year is free, second year is $100. Doubling every year thereafter.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Thanks for making it unpossible for the common man to have a copyright and only let (big) companies get away with it. They also will love to have the excuse of tax-reduction AND can now more easily convince the law to go after grandma humming a song, because after all: they payed for it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"Why do we have these ideas that corporations must be treated in some discriminatory fashion?"
Corporations can not be put in prison.
Corporations can not die.
Treaties = Constitution (Score:3, Interesting)
That's what I see here, and that's what's so dangerous about treaties (it's why we never ratified the Treaty of Versailles):
Treaties are given equal status with the Constitution. Which makes this line:
the US courts and Congress are still working out the correct balance between protecting copyrights and the free exchange of information on the Web and a treaty could be counterproductive.
very interesting.
If a treaty spelled this all out, it'd be like passing an amendment and not even the Supreme Court could do anything.
This is why treaties are usually an uncomfortable topic. Passing a bad treaty is a big fuckup similar to a bad amendment.
Took long enough ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Disney, Google and Yahoo? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Disney, Google and Yahoo? (Score:4, Informative)
"Where does that leave its citizens?" $9,788 billion in the hole
Fixed [brillig.com].
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Re:Disney, Google and Yahoo? (Score:4, Insightful)
Is that supposed to imply that what's good for the economy is good for Ameria? Where does that leave its citizens?
He may have been talking about international copyright violations. International in relation to american copyrights. So presumably, americans would not be included in that because they're not international, they're nationals falling under national copyright.
His interests wouldn't be in copyrights held by people or groups in other countries enforcing their copyrights on american pirates. It's something that would of course be a part of any treaty, but the quote is blurby, maybe he adresses it more later on but it didn't make it into the article.
Anyway, I think the point of his statment was about how american companies enforce their copyrights overseas and was looking at it from a buisness standpoint. American citizens weren't mentioned because that wasn't what he was talking about maybe?
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No, its supposed to imply that there are powerful interests supporting the side of less draconian copyright laws offsetting those supporting more draconian laws; its speaking, with a very thin covering of "common interest", to narrowly self-interested politicians that only look to where powerful interests are in the language they understand.
If you aren't that kind of politician, they were talking past you, not to you.
Re:Just ask Walt Disney (Score:5, Funny)
Don't Copy That Floppy!
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Hang on - wait - how is this "browser plugin" running programs (gpg) on our local machines?