Slashdot Log In
Microsoft's New Programming Language, "M"
Posted by
timothy
on Sat Oct 11, 2008 05:54 PM
from the well-it-sounds-delicious dept.
from the well-it-sounds-delicious dept.
Anthony_Cargile writes "Microsoft announced Friday their new 'M' language, designed especially for building textual domain-specific languages and software models with XAML. Microsoft will also announce Quadrant, for building and viewing models visually, and a repository for storing and combining models using a SQL Server database. While some say the language is simply their 'D' language renamed to a further letter down the alphabet, the language is criticized for lack of a promised cross-platform function because of its ties to MS SQL server, which only runs on Windows."
Related Stories
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
lame (Score:5, Insightful)
great. another language to learn that is completely useless and no one will use.. And I'm not trolling, this glut of languages is fucking ridiculous. Why not clean up the fucking dotnet framework reference dlls?
Re:lame (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:lame (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:lame (Score:5, Interesting)
they are all pretty consistent across the board.
and who cares how many languages there are. each one fits a different purpose, whether they are small niches or big sweeping frameworks like Java, does it really bother you that someone, somewhere just went 'yes, this is perfect for me'?
Parent
Re:lame (Score:5, Interesting)
It's no big deal, anytime that much new comes out in so many areas it takes a while to get them synced, but it's a little chaotic now.
Specifically; new GUI paradigm (XAML/WPF/Silverlight) and new Data Access (LINQ) - the standard collections don't have INotifyPropertyChange support across the board, SortedCollections are hit and miss, just in general I have found that interfaces needed for one new component is not well implemented for other new components. Like I said, just a bit of growing pains, but it needs attention.
But I'll agree it has nothing to do with a new language being introduced. I doubt if that will have any affect one way or the other.
Parent
Re:lame (Score:4, Interesting)
You hit on some, but don't forget that generics have been in since dotnet 2.0 and we STILL do not have generics for reflection, data-tables, or many other standard pieces of the API which still require the use of explicit casting.
Parent
Re:lame (Score:5, Insightful)
does it really bother you that someone, somewhere just went 'yes, this is perfect for me'?
Yeah--because they are probably wrong.
...and the price balloons by thousands of dollars.
;)
My company gets all the Microsoft development tools for free.
With those tools, we build things like Contact management systems, inventory applications, and websites.
We then turn around and sell them to customers. Customers love the price, but then later realize that they must buy a server to run in on, a copy of Windows, a server to run SQL on, a copy of Microsoft SQL Server, licenses, licenses to allow 'anonymous' internet connections, copies of Microsoft Office 2007 to be able to read the reports it spits out in Word 2007 format, etc...
When I develop applications, I don't go looking for the tools that make my life the easiest--I go looking for the tools that will make the end-user's life easier. I develop in languages that work across multiple platforms (except for the abomination that is Java).
Microsoft tools are awesome if you're a developer. They make pumping out applications and websites easy...unless you want to use non-microsoft technologies...or want to save money...or have one of those stubborn Mac users that won't switch to windows
In other words, if you want to be locked into using and paying extortionate fees for Microsoft technologies until the end of time, go ahead. Use Visual Studio. Otherwise, look elsewhere.
Parent
Re:lame (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah--because they are probably wrong.
They are wrong. The last thing we need is another programming language tied to a specific platform.
We then turn around and sell them to customers. Customers love the price, but then later realize that they must buy a server to run in on, a copy of Windows, a server to run SQL on, a copy of Microsoft SQL Server, licenses, licenses to allow 'anonymous' internet connections, copies of Microsoft Office 2007 to be able to read the reports it spits out in Word 2007 format, etc...
Exactly why we opted out of the whole Microsoft environment, at least on the server and desktop side of the house. We have a couple Windows clients floating around with the sales staff but those are laptops that came with it.
Instead of constantly serving the MS machine, we can focus on working. If we need capacity, we just stand it up. New servers go in for the cost of the hardware. I don't consider myself stubborn, just practical. I'd rather focus on work than spend time keeping up the MS all-singing, all-dancing, constantly changing development environment. All the time you spend keeping up on security patches, learning new languages, hunting through the knowledge base, re-writing stuff the new framework broke...it's just nuts. You'd be amazed how productive you can be when you strip all the MS process out of your environment.
Parent
Re:lame (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, your doing real justice with your customer's. This is another M$ proprietary thing. And then you have the gall to mention Unix.
What you just said made absolutely no sense...
On top of that, nowhere did I say 'Unix', 'Linux' or anything remotely like it.
Are you on drugs, or just a moron?
Parent
Re:lame (Score:4, Insightful)
Putting the end user first is an admirable but misplaced sentiment.
The customer is always right. They pay your salary.
You can continue to put yourself first, but you may find your more customer-focussed competitors do rather better than you.
PS. most business apps are still MS-based, and Java is an increasingly irrelevent tech on Windows. MS is making sure of that by pulling developers to .Net as fast as they can.
Parent
Re:lame (Score:5, Funny)
2 Years MS-SQL experience
3 Years in "M", 5 preferred
Pay negotiable.
Parent
They did (Score:5, Funny)
Why not clean up the fucking dotnet framework reference dlls?
You can download them here. [sun.com]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Who said it wasn't?
Re:lame (Score:4, Insightful)
You are trolling. If you weren't you'd have no need to try to disclaim it.
There's no such thing as too many languages.
From a programmers perspective the more the market fragments the more opportunity for specialized knowledge that increases your market value.
And it seems you don't really understand the idea of M. This is not a general purpose language.
So your post is like saying "iPod? Great. Another computer to buy that is useless and no one will use. This glut of computers is fucking ridiculous. Why not make x86 boot quickly instead?"
The iPod is a specialized computer for a specialized task. Just like M.
Parent
Re:lame (Score:5, Insightful)
The iPod is a specialized computer for a specialized task. Just like M.
Yeah.
M helps you reach your goal of being completely locking in your company to Microsoft products.
The iPod just plays music.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The iPod just plays music
Yeah, right. And how do you get that music onto the iPod? Oh yeah, you need to install iTunes (which is terrible software, btw)... and what is iTunes except a foot in the door for the whole Apple(tm) lifestyle?
Yeah, I can see how that is totally different to getting locked into Microsoft products.
Not a problem (Score:5, Funny)
That's not a bug, that's a feature.
Cross platform? Bwahahaha (Score:5, Funny)
From TFA:
By âoecross platformâ, Microsoft means, âoecross platform as long the other platform authors write a backend for the code, and the SQL database MUST be hosted on MS SQL, a proprietary Microsoft Windows serviceâ.
Let me clarify that statement. By cross platform we mean that this is portable to both Microsoft Windows XP and Microsoft Vista.
Parent
Re:Cross platform? Bwahahaha (Score:5, Funny)
And not just Windows XP Vista - all three versions of XP and all eight versions of Windows Vista! Truly the broadest, deepest multiplatform support of any programming language available!
Parent
Re:Not a problem (Score:5, Interesting)
It's almost the only thing the article mentions, you can't go more than three paragraphs before you get "MS sucks the tied D with MSSQL server". I would be interested in knowing what D is. Is there someone with a good article about M or D if that's what it is?
fanboy central here we come..
Parent
Re:Not a problem (Score:4, Informative)
It's almost the only thing the article mentions, you can't go more than three paragraphs before you get "MS sucks the tied D with MSSQL server". I would be interested in knowing what D is. Is there someone with a good article about M or D if that's what it is?
fanboy central here we come..
Hey,
It originated as a re-engineering of C++, but even though it is predominantly influenced by that language, it is not a variant of C++. D has redesigned some C++ features and has been influenced by concepts used in other programming languages, such as Java, C# and Eiffel. A stable version, 1.0, was released on January 2, 2007.
Here's a little explanation taken from wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_programming_language [wikipedia.org] more info can be found on http://www.digitalmars.com/d [digitalmars.com] Good luck!
Parent
Re:Not a problem (Score:5, Informative)
That's a different D.
Microsoft's D is "a new declarative programming language [...] that is expected to serve as a textual modeling language that will let business managers and non-technical stakeholders manipulate digital assets."
(http://www.campustechnology.com/articles/58675/)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Their first thought was BASIC, but alas, it too was already taken.
Re:Not a problem (Score:4, Interesting)
It's been "already taken" multiple times, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_(disambiguation)#Computing [wikipedia.org]
Parent
Re:Not a problem (Score:5, Informative)
Ahem, no.
There's more than one programming language called D.
There's Digital Mars D, which is what you describe. And there's Microsoft D, which is almost, but not quite, completely unlike Digital Mars D.
Parent
Not the current D (Score:5, Informative)
That sound that you hear... (Score:5, Insightful)
is the sound of a company dieing ... seriously. Yes, there will be those that call this post a troll, but look at the facts. What new product has MS announced that was not met with criticism and derision? What have they done in the last 5 years that improved the personal computing world? World leaders they no longer are. The MS way of doing things is no longer the ONLY way to do things.
The more they try to launch products which are locked into their own ecosystem, the more people laugh. There are entire countries that have rejected MS products, never mind the users who do so on their own. When entire countries and industries reject your products you have a serious problem. MS has not and is not addressing that problem. They seem to be blindly going down the same road that led to this situation without concern for how they will make money in the next decade.
It amounts to basically a rotting corpse on the sidewalk with a beggars cup held out. That is just my opinion, and it stems from the lack of anything good or beneficial coming from MS. YMMV
Re:That sound that you hear... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, to be fair, a lot of organizations and governments that have "rejected" Microsoft products did so only to win a better deal. Some have managed to go with Linux or some other OS, but most have ended up back in Microsoft's hands (albeit with a substantial discount.)
Ha ... captcha is "pathetic."
Parent
Re:That sound that you hear... (Score:5, Insightful)
is the sound of a company dieing ... seriously. Yes, there will be those that call this post a troll, but look at the facts. What new product has MS announced that was not met with criticism and derision? What have they done in the last 5 years that improved the personal computing world?
Windows Home Server actually received pretty good reviews, and it can be considered an improvement (mainly in the ease of use) on the current (non-geek) home server scene - the non-existing one that is. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but I'm looking forward to it (and no, I'm not a fanboy, I actually run 3 servers at home: windows, linux and freebsd).
Then there's Microsoft Research, which actually comes up with some great stuff, though most of it is not (yet) implementable on a commercial scale.
So I'll call your post a troll. That's just my opinion too.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
As soon as I read "windows home server" my first thought was all the bad press about the file corruption [wikipedia.org] problems and tbh that's one of the worse things that could happen, to loose all your family photos.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I first heard about Microsoft Research somewhere around Jan. 2008. [...] Fast forward almost 11 years. 11 years ok. Let me say it one more time: 11 YEARS. What exactly has Microsoft Research produced in those 11 years that is truly noteworthy?
A time machine?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:That sound that you hear... (Score:5, Interesting)
The 360 game pad really is very nice, but the D-pad is horrid. They need to improve it.
All said, I think MS is a pretty good company that has a ton of promise. The problem is they need to be broken up. They're like Sony was a few years ago (things have improved, a little)... they have no direction.
MS already have enough of their own languages (VB.net and C#), as well as others coming soon (F#), a shell they're inventing (PowerShell / Monad). They have interesting research products but they don't tend to make it to consumers most of the time.
MS has too much money to throw at projects like this that probably aren't that necessary. Some products linger around for years without enough help (Windows XP), many are constantly delayed (Vista was, we'll see it again). If the Mac Business Unit didn't release something named Office, you'd never know it was related to the "real" Office because the release schedules are so incredibly far apart.
If MS were split into a few little companies (maybe all under one big umbrella company) that could really make 'em fight against each other to prove how good they are, I think they could seriously improve their image.
I don't think Microsoft will last in it's current form. Something will have to change. A major strategy shift, a giant re-org, a slice across the product line (was having 7 different versions of Vista really a good idea?). Something will happen.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Right. I'm thinking more of a XBox company, an Office company, a server company (Exchange, MS SQL, etc), maybe a Windows company (possibly two), software company (MS Trips, utility programs, etc), hardware (mice, keyboards, Zune, etc), 'net (Live mail, Live search...), whatever.
I can see a ton of benefits to this, the competition aspect is the one I'm thinking of as most important. That plus the sink or swim aspect. The Zune guys know that MS will continue to exist next year with or without them. They can
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
is the sound of a company dieing ... seriously. Yes, there will be those that call this post a troll, but look at the facts. What new product has MS announced that was not met with criticism and derision? What have they done in the last 5 years that improved the personal computing world? World leaders they no longer are. The MS way of doing things is no longer the ONLY way to do things.
OK I'll bite, yes you are nothing but a troll. There market dominance is increasing in the server space and so is their profitability. Trolls like you only look at the bad stuff which any company that releases dozens of products a year will have, it is part of the business model. Hell their are still trolls that tout Vista as a failure even though it has 10 times the market share of OS.X and a 100 times the market share of desktop linux and makes them BILLIONS.
recent stuff that doesn't suck and is making th
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hell their are still trolls that tout Vista as a failure even though it has 10 times the market share of OS.X and a 100 times the market share of desktop linux and makes them BILLIONS.
Market share != quality.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
.
Market share = survival.
Microsoft's bread & butter is the home and office workhorse.
The Windows PC that can run damn near every client-side app on the planet - including the marquee products of free and open source.
For the server room there is Exchange and SharePoint and...pretty much everything else you might need or want for a small to mid-sized business.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Doesn't mean they suck. And actually I've worked a few places that use Sharepoint very well. It's a very nice tool when used for a simple purpose. A document and discussion site for a project.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
is the sound of a company dieing
Oh, my eyes. It's spelled dying.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
What have they done in the last 5 years that improved the personal computing world? World leaders they no longer are. The MS way of doing things is no longer the ONLY way to do things.
That is the main Microsoft strategy of dominating any field in the computer industry. With any established field in the computer industry, there are experienced veterans who will be reluctant to switch over to Microsoft products simple because Microsoft tells them to.
The solution is to create a "hive mind" culture where the co
Their technology may be stagnant (Score:3, Interesting)
But their revenue is still increasing, and they still have a stranglehold on the majority of the market.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Seems to me that whatever Microsoft introduces or announces is met with criticism and derision simply because people are predisposed to do that, especially around here.
I seem to remember C# and the .NET framework were met with criticism and derision eight years ago (I'm not a developer but I've followed the dev space for years because my job used to involve dealing with those technologies anyway). Not much criticism and derision now, is there?
More to the point, where exactly is all this criticism and derisi
Link to Register Article (Score:4, Informative)
TFA was low on info and high on bias. The Register article is a little better. I couldn't quickly find any Microsoft release on the matter:
The Register [theregister.co.uk]
Actually, there already is a language called M (Score:4, Informative)
The Mumps Language was re-designated as the M language a number of
years ago. While Mumps isn't as widely used as some others, perhaps
the people in Redmond should do a literature search before they
name things.
see:
http://math-cs.cns.uni.edu/~okane/mumps.html [uni.edu]
http://www.cs.uni.edu/~okane/ [uni.edu]
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Not being on my regular computer, I'm seeing ads today and the delicious irony is that Intersystems is paying for Cache' ads on this story (Cache' is the dominant commercial implementation of M used in about half the hospitals in the US).
I had heard Microsoft was going after the healthcare market but I didn't realize they were going to do it by exhausting Intersystems' ad budget on irrelevant stories.
Also not being on my regular computer I have no idea the keybinding for an accented e....
Sorry Microsoft, the name "M" is already taken (Score:3, Informative)
And it's been taken [wikipedia.org] since 1984.
M has been an ISO and ANSI-standard language (Score:5, Informative)
...for decades. It has been an official alternate name for MUMPS, ANSI standard X11.1, since 1995, while MUMPS itself goes back to 1966. It has been available for virtually every important platform, including but certainly not limited to Windows, for decades. I believe it is still the programming language used by the Veterans Administration. It is the foundation of Intersystem's corporations Cache development platform, and a (much-modified) form of it underlies the product line of Medical Information Technology (Meditech).
Meditech's revenues are something in the range of $350 million, Intersystems' were about $140 million in 2003. That ain't Microsoft but that ain't hay, either.
Regardless of what the legal rights and wrongs might be--I'm not sure whether the ISO and ANSI standards are still current--it just arrogant and tacky and lame for Microsoft to have appropriated this well-established, decades-old language name, particularly when they're so pugnacious about defending their own rights to an ordinary English plural noun.
Domain modeling environments (Score:5, Interesting)
Oslo and M appear to be taking a page out of the research Charles Simonyi has been doing at Microsoft, before leading to develop and advanced form of the technology at his own company Intentional Software [intentsoft.com].
The basic idea here is that any bigger project can be made more maintainable and flexible at the same time, if the deveopers create a domain specific model for the given task, and let the end-users (for example accountants, drug store chemists, biologists, business owners) model the concrete behaviour of the application by manipulating that simplified and specialized language, often visually, the way an UML diagram or a spreadsheet works.
Unfortunately the linked article offers a little more than the usual "LOL, Microsoft sucks!" rant, which is somewhat expected from a blog where the iMac keyboard and iPhone are used as "design elements".
Anyway, I'd say this should be watched as it can mean model languages will finally enter mainstream, something that's been years in the making.
Related articles:
http://blogs.msdn.com/wenlong/archive/2008/09/07/net-4-0-wf-wcf-and-oslo.aspx [msdn.com]
"By mentioning model-driven programming, you will see a general modeling platform to be unveiled at PDC: Oslo. As Doug said, Oslo contains three simple things: a visual tool helps building models, a new textual DSL language helps defining models, and a relational repository that stores models. XAML represented workflows and services are special models in this domain. Check for more details in the postings from Doug and Don."
http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1430 [zdnet.com]
"'Schemas in the repository can be defined using this language, but they dont have to be,' Chappell said. Developers can still use any other tools with which theyd be comfortable to create schemas instead. Because the new language will generate SQL, and the repository can be accessed using standard SQL, no special languages will be required."
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I think the article is talking about a different D programming language, not the one from Digital Mars.
Re:Nowhere for Big Bird to Go Now (Score:4, Funny)
Nope. The next languages will be "E", "R", "D" and back to "E" again.
Parent