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Appropriate Tech, 300mpg Car Top 2008 Innovators
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:56 PM
from the name-your-own-runners-up dept.
from the name-your-own-runners-up dept.
longacre writes "While some giggles were floating around about the irony of a Microsoft product (Photosynth) finding itself on the same top 10 products list as a toilet, the true stars of last night's annual Popular Mechanics Breakthrough Awards were innovations of far more consequence. MIT professor Amy B. Smith won the marquis Leadership Award for her work on building simple, low-cost technology to help developing countries. Joining Smith from the appropriate technology field were a group of CalTech students who created all-terrain wheelchairs for the disabled, and a Procter & Gamble exec who developed a water purifying powder for the third world. Aptera Vehicles founders Steve Ambro and Chris Anthony made the cut for their 300mpg Typ-1e, which is expected to hit showrooms by the end of this year. Other winners ranged from the Mars Phoenix Lander team, to the developers of a low-cost cancer test, to the creators of Spore."
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Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel please (Score:5, Interesting)
300mpg is impressive, but they stopped selling trike's for a reason ( and they now sell quad's in their place ).
That trend with electric vehicles actually worries me, and I can't help but wonder at the safety implications.
Is it really so difficult to keep the drag co-efficient down without losing the extra wheel?
GrpA
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:5, Informative)
Single front-wheel trikes are dangerous. Single back-wheel trikes are pratically as stable as a four-wheeler.
As a bonus, this one looks amazing (saw one in person this summer): http://spyder.brp.com/ [brp.com]
Parent
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:5, Informative)
I'd still question the stability. It depends on the location of the CoP, which can vary depending on the situation the vehicle finds itself in.
Front-wheel trikes are succeptible to issues when braking (CoP moves forward) and turning (CoP moves to the side) at the same time.
Under those circumstances, which are reasonably likely to occur, I agree with you on the configuration.
However, under other circumstances involving stability and under high yaw (eg, braking causes the car to spin, etc, and with less traction on one rear tire than two) I'd still be fearful that the car would flip rather than slide - all that really needs to happen, IMO, is for the back-end to spin around to the front under braking.
Plus you also have the issues related to contact surface area of the rear tire.
I guess I'm talking about the kinds of positions you might find yourself in, that you learn to deal with in an advanced driving course, but whenever you go for three wheels, the first compromise is stability.
The car does look nice though... Like a composite body aircraft cockpit - :)
GrpA
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Can you use it to transport a family (2+2) to/from shopping?
Other than that it is a nice development.
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do you need to take your whole family shopping? Can't you buy your Rice Krispies by yourself? ;-) And even if you needed to take the whole family, then you can just take two cars. Mom and kid in the Aptera; dad and kid in the other. The combined 150 mpg is still a LOT better than the average 20mpg SUV.
Very few people need to carry a Ford Living Room everywhere they go.
For those wanting four wheels, Volkswagen will soon have a 1L/100km (240mpg) car.
Parent
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:5, Informative)
[Citation needed]
If you refer to this [wikipedia.org], it seats two and is hardly by any definition something that seats a whole family. (Not that you claimed that, but somehow it seemed implied) It'll be there in 2010 in limited numbers... Read: "expensive" (It says 20k€ to 30k€ in the wikipedia article)
I don't object with your post, just with that statement. We're far from there.
Also note that a 3L/100km car [wikipedia.org] was in production for years but was scrapped because of low sales :-/
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
Mom and kid in the Aptera; dad and kid in the other. The combined 150 mpg is still a LOT better than the average 20mpg SUV.
Right, since they're going to burn the fuel to drive the 20mpg SUV they might as well take a second vehicle as well.
They'll burn more gas that way, but hey, at least they can brag that their combined average is over 100MPG!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So one parent can't go anywhere with both kids unless the other parent goes also, and what about families with three kids?
As for shopping, if the wife can't take the kids to the store during the day, she has to hire a baby sitter. Instead, taking the children shopping is an excellent teaching opportunity, so they can learn how to behave in public and how to shop within a budget just to name two.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
A two seater really is a non-starter for most people with families. It's not just old-fashioned ideas. Nobody is going to want to split up their family every time they want to drive somewhere. Many people could possibly use an efficient two-seater for solo driving, and then have another car for hauling the family. However, most people would rather have one car that does it all instead of the expense (and the space needs) of two.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
...and a major cause of air pollution is the low-speed stop-and-go driving brought on by traffic jams. No matter what you're driving, it'll be more efficient at a constant speed. It's hard to maintain a constant speed, though, when the roads are inadequate for the traffic they need to carry.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If you absolutely need more than 2+1 seating (i.e., you're only going to have one car and/or rarely have anyone in the household who travels by themselves or with one adult and one small child), then you're right; it's not for you. However, a huge portion of the American population is not in that situation. It's sad watching a hummer going down the freeway carrying only the driver. What a waste.
If you do need more than 2+1 seating, not only are there many other EVs coming out from other manufacturers in
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Well, Morgan used to make a 3 wheel sports car, and they used to be able to lap Brooklands at over a ton (all power from a big twin bike engine).
The configuration's still available today - here's a video [livevideo.com] of an old Moggie and a Grinnall Scorpion being let out to play.
Pretty stable, no?
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:5, Informative)
Quite true, so long as the CoM is positioned just behind the front wheels. When braking, that puts the CG directly between the front wheels. You're left with the same resistance to rollover, but you have a lower moment of inertia, so it's more responsive. Also, with two wheels at front steering, just like in a normal car, you have similar tendancy toward understeer rather than the extreme oversteer of "delta" trikes.
There was a good article from Road and Track in May 1982 where they tested various configurations; there's excerpts here [autospeed.com].
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Remember three wheeler Morgans (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Can-Am Spyder (Score:3, Informative)
Its a first generation vehicle, but its been developed for around 10 years and minus a few minor complaints they totally hit a home run! I can confidently say that I am very happy with my purchase. But I must warn you, don't buy one unless you really like attention because ev
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:2)
i don't really see trikes as a trend with electric vehicles. there are trike gas-powered vehicles as well, just as there are electric bikes, quads, cars, and trucks.
i think companies that sell/develop electric vehicles tend to be more innovative and like to experiment with alternate vehicle designs/technologies. so perhaps that's why you've seen more electric trikes in proportion to four-wheel electrics than with gas-powered vehicles. but there's no direct link between electric propulsion and three-wheeled
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Decade old news - a new record for /. (Score:2, Interesting)
The picture of the #1 item on the list - the toilet looks like[1] one I had in my apartment in Tokyo almost 10 years ago. WTF? Is this a joke, or have people really gotten that insular and stupid in the US?
[1] It does not have the control panel to flush water up your ass after pooping nor heat the toilet seat like Japanese toilets did back then the "innovative" water thingy looks identical.
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It doesn't get 300 mpg. It gets a more reasonable, (and still quite impressive) 130 mpg. Why people feel the need to inflate mileage with "free" electricity in the hybrid parts is quite a mystery to me.
To properly gauge you have to take a holistic approach to these things: what is it's "miles per dollar."
Re: (Score:2)
Not really 300mpg as it's electric with a range of 120 miles. TFA says they may do a hybrid that does 130mpg (US I assume). Not too bad. If you want 4 wheels and better economy then the Loremo looks cool if it ever gets into production
http://evolution.loremo.com/ [loremo.com]
As for safety, the US has issues if their fatality rate is x3 the UK one
http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/statistics/stats-multicountry-percapita-2004.htm [driveandstayalive.com]
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:5, Insightful)
Pit this versus a full size truck or even a semi and it has little chance.
And what small economy car do you want to drive head-on into a semi? Frankly, unless it is another semi, you are going to have a very bad day... And even if it is another semi, the day won't be good.
Parent
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:4, Insightful)
It's muchmuchmuch easier to avoid a crash in the first place in a small, maneuverable vehicle than in a big one with a lot of mass. Semi dodges a kid in the road, swerves into another lane with oncoming traffic. Now try to get that huge mass to swerve back into the proper lane. Try the same dodge in a motorcycle, small car or something similar.
Parent
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:5, Informative)
The GP is absolutely correct, though. Americans have this mentality of assuming that crashes are inevitable that's not shared in much of the rest of the world. Hence, a lot of Americans only feel comfortable driving overweight (read: unmaneuverable) armored tanks that make them *more* likely to be involved in accidents. Statistics bear this out; SUVs are more likely to be involved in accidents than small cars.
As for safety: try over double the NTSB standards on roof and door crush strength, modelled with the same crash-survivability testing software that BMW uses, with normal car safety features (traction control, dual airbags... Actually the airbags are among the most advanced on the market -- in-seatbelt curtain airbags), and so on down the line. And I'll take a crash in a composite vehicle over a steel one any day. You ever seen the sort of 100+mph crashes of exotics that people walk away from? It's pretty amazing.
As for your last line, you're completely wrong on all counts. It's a 2+1 seater -- two full sized seats in the front and one seat for a small child in the back. And it has 16 cubic feet of trunk space, which is the size of your typical sedan's trunk. This is not a small car -- just an unusually shaped one. The unusual shape eliminates the presence of a normal backseat in exchange for the aerodynamics to gain its extreme efficiency.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If you pick a 1955 VW Beetle as the car then perhaps you can. If you pick a modern car then no, you can't. A modern car car can pull around 1g of deceleration (sports cars more, SUVs less). To stop in 1/3rd distance of a car decelerating at 1g you'd have to be decelerating at 3g. Even if there existed a tyre compound which could give you that much grip without downforce (no such compound exists) you'd surely
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:5, Insightful)
Why does everyone cry "Safety" whenever a small car is introduced. Think of it as a motorcycle with a roof and it becomes much easier to envision driving to work every day. I doubt if I'm the only one tired of the safety cops trying to controll everything I do. Dangerous is FUN.
Parent
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:5, Informative)
Not to mention that its roof and door crush strengths are over double the NTSB standard. Composite monocoque structures are nice that way.
The crash test results should put a lot of concerns at rest. Yes, they've been simulating crash tests with the same software that BMW uses, but nothing comforts like real-world tests. They just took the jobs for crash test engineers off their jobs page, so looks like they've been filled.
Parent
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:5, Insightful)
by that logic we should all drive tanks so that when we get in accidents our cars survive but we die (crumple zones are designed so that the car absorb the energy from a collision rather than passengers). your attitude is more suited to destruction derby than road safety.
ICE engines are a technological anachronism no matter how you slice it--both environmentally and in terms of energy efficiency. so what you feel is based on irrational beliefs. the only reason hybrids are useful now is because we haven't yet built the infrastructure for plug-in electric vehicles to completely replace ICE vehicles. it's an intermediate phase. it would not make sense to have hybrids if electric propulsion did not have advantages over ICE propulsion.
but all forms of progress, whether technological, cultural, social, or political, there will be a strong rearguard reaction to overcome. therefore it's important to disseminate information and encourage people to take a rational approach to the issue rather than falling victim to knee-jerk responses based on ignorant reactionary attitudes. luckily there are companies out there [teslamotors.com] working to dispel false negative perceptions of electric vehicles as a lot of people still associate environmentally-friendly with poor performance.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Agreed. This car is way too impractical to ever see common use on American roads. Pit this versus a full size truck or even a semi and it has little chance. Honestly though, with the advances in TDI diesel engines and hybrid technologies, I feel the future is not in electric cars.
Well, nothing is going to go up against a semi and survive.
Semis are one of the 3 vehicles that always win: semis, buses, and trains.
Re:Impressive car, but I'd like an extra wheel ple (Score:5, Informative)
I'd like to see what happens to the drag coefficient(and the dent in the wallet of the owner) if that thing gets a ding
My mother in law laughed off the suggestion of damage to the Aptera when it came up in a conversation. She used to work at a place that built fiberglass hovercraft and said that they're pretty easy to repair. This is a 6th generation quilter in her sixties. Besides, composites are a lot more resistant to damage than steel. As for taking out a wheel, do you really think a thin metal skin on your car around your wheels is offering any relevant protection?
In other words, nerds, think about this: If you were at a party
Your insight into the mind of women is stunning [youtube.com]. Really [autobloggreen.com].
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Losing the third wheel has a whole range of benefits. One, it gets the motorcycle classification, which allows them to have a lot more of a free hand in how to design things. To Aptera's credit, they're voluntarily doing the normal safety things, although some companies use the motorcycle classification to avoid things like crash tests. The other issues are practical, not legal. Given that the ideal shape is either a teardrop or a truncated teardrop (depending on the situation), the aerodynamic benefits
Tank Size (Score:5, Funny)
If you bother to read the blurb for the Aptera, you'll see the 300mpg claim is for a fully charged hybrid.
Unfortunately there was no information on how many gallons of electricity it holds.
Re: (Score:2)
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10kWh. We don't know the depth of discharge on the pack, though. The Aptera Typ-1e is rated for 120 miles at 55mph and 70 miles at 80mph. The electric range of the Typ-1h is to be between 40 and 60 miles, depending on driving style. But of course, only the Typ-1e currently exists.
And of course, it's not really 300mpg, as you noted. In steady-state highway driving, the Typ-1h's "charge-sustaining" mileage is to be 130mpg. I hate these bogus PHEV mileage numbers, but they all play that game. It's looki
Answer - 110-120mpg on fuel-only (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't have the link, but in the literature or on the forums somewhere there's a curve of the "efficiency" of the hybrid. The curve is asymptotic at about 110-120mpg, which would be your gasoline-only efficiency. Even with gas prices coming down a bit, the plug-in portion is still a fantastic economic deal compared to gasoline. The 10kWh battery will get you nearly 80 miles at real highway speeds, that's about $0.75 in electricity for me. And compared to the 13mpg I get around town in my F150, it's quite
Photosynth photoshmynth (Score:2)
Stupid exaggerated mpg claims (Score:2)
TFA mentions that it's 130 mpg after the initial charge of the batteries is drained. The 300 mpg claim hides the electrical energy that's put into the car, as if that's free. I appreciate that specifying fuel consumption is complex for a plug-in hybrid, but this type of claim is just plain lying.
Re:Stupid exaggerated mpg claims (Score:5, Insightful)
"lying" is a bit of a mis-statement.
Parent
The VW may be even more impressive (Score:4, Interesting)
While this car is impressive, I think the car designed in 1999 and going on sale in a year and a bit is much more amazing.
Just think, the pres of VW got 317 miles per (imperial) gallon driving this thing to a press conference. This is without any batteries or hybrid tech.
I would be happy with a runabout that achieved just half of that.
Below are links if you have not read about it yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car [wikipedia.org]
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/gw/vw1litre.htm [canadiandriver.com]
That Toliet Innovative? (Score:3, Interesting)
I remember in Japan for many years seeing toilets with spigots at the top of the tank, not to mention dual flush, heated seats, and no need for paper, thanks to a water spray and air dryer. So I'd hardly call it a breakthrough product.
It's the 21st century and we're still rubbing our ass cracks with dead trees.
MPG? (Score:3, Interesting)
1. Kg of CO2 emitted to produce one
2. Kg of CO2 emitted to run one for 100 Km
3. Kg of CO2 emitted to fully dispose one
Anything else is just buzzword and advertisement!
Screw the car, PUR is far more important (Score:4, Insightful)
The mixture includes flocculants, which cause suspended solids, heavy metals and parasites to clump together. The resulting "floc" can then be filtered out with a cotton cloth. Time-released chlorine kills bacteria and viruses. Within 30 minutes, about a teaspoon of the powder can treat 2.5 gal. of water. "The visual improvement is dramatic," says Eric Mintz, chief of the CDC's diarrheal diseases and epidemiology section.
A flying car would not even compare to this, not even a flying car that gets 300 miles per gallon. Having grown up with Star Trek (original series) this too me is the closest to Star Trek I have seen. A powder to make water safe. Screw that silly looking three wheeler, this helps the world far more than any vehicle.
I was very surprised not to be able to find mention of it on Wikipedia, even under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_water_purification [wikipedia.org]
It apparently never made it big in the news which is a disappointment, hopefully this "award" will give it its due
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Go down. Less demand with the same supply means lower prices. Of course OPEC might try to reduce supply, but it wouldn't go up overall.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
And that's why you're not an economist.
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You can reserve now, and have been able to for almost a year, but well... get at the back of the line. ;) The waiting list is huge. Also, you currently need to be a California resident; it's region-limited until they can scale up.
The first commercial models start shipping in December. I'd expect a slow ramp-up pace. The factory is designed to peak at 10,000 a year. They're also looking at building a larger factory in the south, but honestly, with the credit crisis the way it is now, I imagine that plan
Re:I would like to be the first to welcome (Score:5, Informative)
The hybrid has 40-60 miles of electric range and a 5 gallon gas tank. The vehicle gets 130mpg in charge-sustaining mode in both 55mph steady-state and in city driving (lower at high freeway speeds). So, I'm sure you can do the math. Base price for the Typ-1e (electric) is $27k, while the base price for the Typ-1h (plug-in hybrid) is $30k. These are, of course, subject to change, but they seem to have roughly stabilized on these values. Like with any new car purchase, expect to add cost for options, taxes, title, and registration.
38K miles a year? Wow. Yeah, that'd sure be a big cut in your fuel bill ;)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
As for the basic economics of going all-electric with this one I ran som