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Online Carpooling Service Fined In Canada
Posted by
kdawson
on Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:51 AM
from the regulatory-capture dept.
from the regulatory-capture dept.
TechDirt is reporting on a disappointing development out of Canada. An Ontario transportation board has fined PickupPal, a Web-based service for arranging carpools, because a local bus company complained of the competition. (TechCrunch apparently first broke the story.) "[The transportation board has] established a bunch of draconian rules that any user in Ontario must follow if it uses the service — including no crossing of municipal boundaries — meaning the service is only good within any particular city's limits. It's better than being shut down completely, and the service can still operate elsewhere around the world, but this is yet another case where we see regulations, that are supposedly put in place to improve things for consumers, do the exact opposite."
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No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
* You must travel from home to work only â" (Not Home to School, or Home to the Hospital or the Airport) * You cannot cross municipal boundaries â" (Live outside the city and drive in â" sorry you cannot share the ride with your neighbour) * You must ride with the same driver each day â" (Want to mix it up go with one person one day and another person another day â" no sorry cannot do that â" must be same person each day) * You must pay the driver no more frequently than weekly â" (Neighbour drives you to work better not pay her right away just in case she drives you later on in the week)
Personally, I'm confused as to how they came to these regulations. It's built on a faulty foundation that they could define carpooling as a very strict set of conditions- and then disallow any activity that didn't meet those conditions.
It just plainly doesn't make sense. If I want to share a ride with a complete stranger and split the gas, how is that any different from sharing a ride with a family member? According to these restrictions, I can't drive myself and my mom to the airport and split the gas cost?
It's my car and I'd much prefer to do with it what I'd please- I see absolutely no reason the government has any say in this!!
Other Canadian news:
-In a surprising decision by the Ontario Sandwich Authority, You may no longer split the cost of a foot long sub with somebody else and then each eat half, as it doesn't boost profits to our local sub shops...
Re:No sense... (Score:4, Informative)
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It SEEMS like it does not make sense (Score:5, Informative)
This issue is almost already dead. It is OLD news, and there are changes to legislation going through the provincial(state) parliment to fix this problem.
The reason for these rules were to prevent UNLICENCED operators from running a bus or taxi service. Obviously the rules need to be changed, and they are.
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
Democracy works--in theory.
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Informative)
The landlord pays property tax and that cost is passed along to tenants as part of the rent.
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now actually I don't mind paying that tax , that is infrastructure, but I DO have a problem with targeted tax breaks to people with kids! If they get a tax break for fucking and having a kid and I don't, then I am effectively subsidizing their choice to have kids. That is not fair! If anything parents should be charged more since they use more resources.
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, there we go again, conservatives crying about the need for deregulation. Poppycock, I say! I say the problem is a lack of regulation! Heap more regulations on top of the pile until it's all fixed, I say! It's a good thing PickupPal got stopped doing their illegal and immoral business practices. Someone has to stand up for the consumers, primarily those of the local bus company.
It's my car and I'd much prefer to do with it what I'd please- I see absolutely no reason the government has any say in this!!
Haven't you heard? Government = Democracy = We The People = We Can Tell You What To Do. Really, why do you conservative blowhards need to kick and scream every time Leviathan tells you, "No, You Can't, For The Greater Good?" You live in a complex society with complex interpersonal interactions, by living in our System you surrender your rights and dignity for the collective so you can live happily and freely. So what if the masses don't understand the implications and issues they vote upon the great deal of the time? At least we live in a marketplace of ideas, which I can tell you is a much better marketplace than the oppressive one with money and goods and slave wages.
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Re:No sense... (Score:4, Insightful)
Deregulation has worked great for the US banking industry.
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
It would have worked if the feds didn't bail out the idiots. They'd be out of business by now.
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
Talking about more or less regulation (as the word "deregulation" does), is useless. A regulated market needs two things: Policy that makes sense, and exactly that minimum set of regulations necessary to reasonably implement that policy.
People who are for "deregulation" generally assume that we started with neither of those things, and so removing some regulation will make things less screwed up. Those against "deregulation" assume we started with a situation reasonably close to those things and removing some regulations will break everything. And you know what they say about assumptions...
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
There are plenty of cases where government gets it right, plenty of cases where businesses get it wrong.
The difference is that I have a choice of which private enterprises I do business with. Short of armed revolt or emigration I don't have that same choice when it comes to Government.
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
In the US, you can change government officials and policy.
Tell that to all the people who voted for John McCain. Remember that Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.... not a bad deal if you are one of the wolves but kind of a tough break if you happen to be the sheep.
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
As a slashdot signature I've seen recently said:
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding who to eat for dinner. Liberty is the sheep having a gun."
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
So liberty means that the majority either starves or gets shot for the benefit of the minority. Not a bad analogy, actually...
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Interesting)
There is a saying:
A company does a hundred things wrong, and 1 right you only here about the 1 decision. The government does 1000 things right and 1 wrong, you only hear about the wrong one.
This is true.
A company just needs to to tralk about it's failures, and very few people know. The government has a lot of people whose sole purpose is to tell everyone when smething goes wrong.
I worked in the private sector for about 38 years, and now I work for a city government. I see aso many thing being done correctly, for the benefit of the citizen. I see projects that are completed on time and within budget all the time.
I see a lot less waste. (you can confuirm that by going to the labrary and looking at the numbers)
But a son as 1 thing goes wrong, it's headlines. Sometimes it
s becasue of a stupid elected official, sometimes it's due to unforseen factors. Like the price of rock suddenly going through the roof, sometimes it looks like a mistake because of a lack of facts.
Bear in mind even a moderately size City has 1000's of projects going on every day.
I ahve been pleasantly surprised working for the government. I have also learned a lot about why things seem so expensive.
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Funny)
I have mod points, but strangely, see no "-1 Possibly Drunk" option...
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously? Off the top of my head things that the Canadian gov't "gets right" (and I won't quibble over what the hell that means):
1) post office
2) fire department
3) law enforcement
4) military
5) liquor distribution
That's just a handful, and for the sake of discussion I'm leaving off a few high profile, controversial services that we'll just end up arguing about.
Here in Alberta, Canada, a couple that private corporations are busy screwing up:
1) electricity. This was de-regulated here a few years back, and prices sky rocketed nearly overnight.
2) liquor distribution. We handed it over to private enterprise and prices dropped. For a year. I just visited our neighbour, BC, where it is still government run, and they have as good availability (I was shocked to walk into a corner store at midnight and find that they had a fully stocked gov't liquor store open), and most items are a good 10% cheaper.
I don't actually have a problem with liquor distribution being privately run. It's not an essential service; but if the benchmark is "serving the consumer better", it failed.
I don't think having the government run everything would work out so well, but this canard that it's inherently inefficient and private enterprise always does it better has got to be put to bed.
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
"2) liquor distribution. We handed it over to private enterprise and prices dropped. For a year. I just visited our neighbour, BC, where it is still government run, and they have as good availability (I was shocked to walk into a corner store at midnight and find that they had a fully stocked gov't liquor store open), and most items are a good 10% cheaper."
This is breathtakingly naive. *You are paying* for the availability and the relative "cheapness" of the government-subsidized liquor store ... and so is everyone else, *even those who don't drink*. The funds you pay are called "taxes." Furthermore, you are almost *certainly* paying *more* than you would if it were not a government operation ... as has been shown thousands of times, governments simply do not have the same incentives to achieve the same high levels of efficiency that businesses competing against each other do.
- Alaska Jack
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Informative)
My point was that the ALCB was not being subsidized by taxpayer dollars, as you seemed to be asserting:
It wasn't just paying for itself, but contributing back to the budget, hence benefiting taxpayers.
Thinking about it, there may have been efficiency gains in that they controlled the full distribution chain, meaning fewer middle men.
Heck, I could even be wrong on this one - a fellow Albertan notes further down the chain that he thinks overall liquor has become cheaper. I still firmly stand by my assertion that government run is not inherently inefficient, and I'm rather tired of it being taken as an absolute truth, like gravity.
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, here we go:
This isn't like an American company where it's turning a profit but only because of government bailouts and subsidies. They aren't a private entity at all. It's a branch of the government. There is no subsidy. If it turns a profit, that money isn't kept by the CEO. It goes into government coffers. If they turn a profit, it is a revenue source for the government. Therefore, the government can spend more and tax exactly the same. Thus, ALCB lowered taxes, or rather, allowed more government spending without raising taxes. There are cases of government run corporations that don't turn a profit. Back to BC again, BC ferries eats a loss. People want it privatized since it is using up tax dollars. The counter argument is that if it is privatized, the new corporate owners will terminate unprofitable runs. Therefore, the smaller BC islands will suddenly have no ferry service. This argument is not so cut and dry, as it's a pretty essential service to be able to get food in your grocery store! Remote towns need more roads to reach them, but the taxes they pay for those roads are the same as mine, even though my city needed less roads built to it to keep it connected.
Anyway, the previous poster is wrong. LCBO in Ontario, and BC Liquor in BC are actually slightly more expensive than the private providers in Ontario and BC. And they sure aren't open later! BC Liquor in particular is a very governmental type business. I think it's what, 10AM-4PM most days. Open till 8PM on Friday nights only. In BC if you wanted wine with dinner and it wasn't Friday, you had to go to a private store, at least if you worked a 9-5. The LCBO in Ontario is a bit better, they all seem to be open later, but have a lot less selection than say, The Beer Store.
In summary, you did pretend to have special knowledge by assuming that the province run stores were eating a loss and thus requiring government bailouts.
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This was on NPR a while back (Score:5, Informative)
I remember hearing about this story a few months ago on NPR (can't find a link, if someone else can it's worth it to listen to). IIRC, they had an executive from the competing company being interviewed.
Basically, his complaint boiled down to the argument that it wasn't fair that the bus company had to comply with a bunch of expensive regulations, but that a carpooling service didn't.
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Re:This was on NPR a while back (Score:5, Insightful)
As soon as the bus company is merely directing people to buses and not operating said buses, they have a valid complaint.
In the mean time, there is no equivalence.
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Re:This was on NPR a while back (Score:5, Interesting)
A carpool is quite a bit different from a bus, provides an entirely different service in an entirely different manner.
In and around Tampa, Florida, the state will GIVE you a van and buy your gas if you get 4 or more people to ride in it 5 days a week (I think they're looking for people with 40+ mile commutes each way). Turns out to be cheaper for the state to supply the vans than for them to increase capacity on the roads clogged with single riders.
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Re:This was on NPR a while back (Score:5, Informative)
For the record, I live in the same town ad the bus company that brought this all to a head (trentway-wager).
They had a point in their initial concern, however the way the transportation board handled this was all wrong. There were van operators who were unlicenced and unregulated, who basically bought large 10-15 person vans, and were advertising on PickupPal for "intercity transportation" (e.g. rides to Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, etc.). They were abusing PickupPal to basically operate a Van and Taxi service. Unfortunately, instead of the transportation board finding out who those unlicenced operators were and cracking down and fining them, they decided to take their wrath out on the website and screw it up for everyone else who were following the "spirit" of the website.
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Re:This was on NPR a while back (Score:5, Insightful)
Unlicensed van drives? As in they didn't have a drivers license? Or they didn't have some arbitrary piece of paper that said they couldn't drive around a bunch of strangers?
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Re:This was on NPR a while back (Score:5, Informative)
Why are there so many pseudo 14 year olds on this site recently ?
I would imagine that if you enquire into the issue and dig right back to the beginning of the regulation, you will find that the public demanded some oversight of these private companies. Now ill-educated fools who think they have the answer to life itself (because they are 14 years and nearly 6 months old) are complaining about things that "we, the people" asked for.
If you're not 14 years old, start acting like it.
Shut down the FAA, let the airlines self regulate. Shut down welfare, turn all the streets into a ghetto. Shut down medicare, let the disease spread. Shut down all these things because they cost me money. I don't see any benefit. Me me me me me !
It really is the American disease. What gets me is the fact that you have no excuse for complaining. You actually have enough space to just say "fuck it" pack your shit together and live in the woods. But no, you'd rather run the country (badly) from your armchair while taking a large advantage from all the benefits bestowed by the things you want to get rid of. When you get that problem sorted out, you might find the politicians reflecting the people in a better light. Yes, you heard me. The reason Bush got in was because there are millions of people who think like he does. If you think that's good, I'm sorry for your descendants.
I didn't mean to pick on Bush, he is in illustrious company. But let's face it, he is the poster boy for WTF ?
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Re:No sense... (Score:4, Insightful)
It's protectionism... same as import duties. These rules support the continued operation of an otherwise unsustainable business model (or enhance the profitability of one).
If this model is taking business from the bus company, then that says clearly that it's providing a service or cost-effectiveness that the bus company can't (or isn't willing to). What's a better model for capitalism than this, for driving change and improvement for the customer?
Further, I doubt that a large percentage of the carpooling service would be bus customers anyways... I'd bet that most of them weigh it against the option of driving their own cars. That's good for the environment - fewer cars on the road, and maybe fewer cars altogether.
The only reason this gets messy is because the drivers are taking money for the service, making them an unlicensed small business operator. There's gotta be a better way to address this than outlawing an otherwise good-for-everyone-but-the-bus-company service.
MadCow.
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
As usual the situation is a little less ridiculous than the blogs make it out to be.
The bus company has a valid point that if I wanted to start a bus service but I didn't want to bother with things like safety regulations or hiring drivers with the appropriate license, I could easy just use the carpool site. The carpool site themselves were (they're not anymore) charging a commission.
The bus company says it's unfair competition because anyone with a car can set themselves up as a mini bus company without the expense of adhering to safety regulations. The transportation board's worry is that there will be a bunch of amateur, unregulated bus/cab drivers running around.
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That makes sense (Score:4, Funny)
"The transportation board's worry is that there will be a bunch of amateur, unregulated bus/cab drivers running around."
That makes sense. You wouldn't want the bus drivers to have to share the road with a bunch of untrained amateur drives on the road.
Oh...wait....
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Re:No sense... (Score:5, Informative)
Personally, I'm confused as to how they came to these regulations. It's built on a faulty foundation that they could define carpooling as a very strict set of conditions- and then disallow any activity that didn't meet those conditions.
They're not disallowing anything. They're simply defining a carpool. Something that doesn't fit into that definition isn't disallowed, it's just not officially a carpool.
If I want to share a ride with a complete stranger and split the gas, how is that any different from sharing a ride with a family member?
You're more than welcome to do that. The problem here isn't sharing a ride with a stranger. The problem here is a business facilitating that sharing. The decision is basically saying that they are not facilitating carpooling, by the legal definition of carpooling, and that therefore what they are doing is facilitating transportation of passengers in public vehicles. The problem is that operators of public transportation vehicles must be licensed to operate a public vehicle, which these drivers are not.
It's my car and I'd much prefer to do with it what I'd please- I see absolutely no reason the government has any say in this!!
They don't. Carry on transporting whoever you want. Even call it a carpool if you want. No one cares. But don't try to operate a business facilitating public transportation without the appropriate licenses.
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You're Doing It Wrong (Score:5, Interesting)
I thought the government was only supposed to provide services that the private sector can't or won't provide with reasonable cost and quality.
Outdated laws are being changed (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&BillID=2099 [ontla.on.ca]
Re:Outdated laws are being changed (Score:4, Informative)
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Okay I was wrong.. (Score:4, Interesting)
I read the link figuring that there must be some good reason for this law. It may be an outdated reason but I figure there must still be some reason. ,"You need to know how much to charge the government so you can give that money to the government?"
I was wrong.
Of course it reminds me of something that happened to me at work.
My company sold software to a Canadian government agency. They pay a yearly fee for updates and support. On day I got a call from the Canadian tax department. They wanted to know how much the update disks we where shipping to the other agency where worth. This was before the Internet was available to mortals.
Well six floppies so about six dollars. I told them the updates where free.
They kept arguing with me to tell them how much the updates where worth. It seems that they needed to charge tax the people that where receiving the updates.... I told them that IT WAS THERE OWN GOVERNMENT!!!!
The told me that it didn't matter. So I asked them this
They said yes, and didn't even laugh. In fact they where a little ticked that I couldn't see the logic in it.
I told them that they had just invented Taxabation and they hung up on me.
We talked to our clients and set up a bbs so they could download the updates from then on.
Re:Okay I was wrong.. (Score:5, Informative)
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How do you enforce this? (Score:4, Insightful)
Are they going to randomly stop cars with more than one person and question everybody? Or maybe they'll have undercover police. We could even have a new CSI CPU (Carpool Unit).
Article Biased... (Score:5, Informative)
The article is heavily biased, although this isn't terribly surprising.
Pickup Pal is a service that allows individuals to arrange not only carpools. Specifically, it allows drivers and passengers to arrange compensation for trips.
Does this remind you of anything else? Oh, yes, a taxi company (or bus company, take your pick) which is Trentway-Wagar's complaint.
The bus company, which TW is, as an organization that arranges for buses to transport passengers for money, is bound by a series of provincial vehicle travel laws which require its drivers to be insured, to possess the correct licenses for their vehicles, and so on.
There are, in fact, specific exceptions in the specified Acts for car-pooling, but it appears that Pickup Pal does not satisfy them for various reasons (which should actually be quite obvious, prima facie).
The difficulty is that Pickup Pal is obviously not merely offering a carpool service. They are also obviously not offering a public taxi service or a bus service, either, but the carpool service has a defined exception in the law.
The law, the board argues, exists to protect riders. Drivers are to be insured, carry the proper licenses for their vehicles, and so on. (Insurance issues, which is a major public interest in cases such as these, form a major part of the Board's concern. Insuring a public vehicle is very different from insuring a private car and the caps on insurance are often much higher.)
As a result, Pickup Pal was ordered to immediately cease taking any actions that would put them in violation of the Public Vehicles Act.
Pickup Pal argues that they have nothing to do with the service, that they merely arrange this. The Board does not agree, for good reason- a taxicab company could make an identical argument. Such an argument is unpersuasive. There is a compelling public policy argument to regulating public vehicles and carriers and so on. For abiding by these regulations, Trentway-Wagar incurs costs, and they found it unfair that another provider would be able to avoid the regulations and thereby avoid the costs- hence the charge of unfair competition.
The summary writes that the regulations are making things worse for the consumer. I beg to disagree. Unsafe public transportation is worse than expensive public transportation, and there is a compelling public policy reason for regulating public transportation for safety's sake- regulations that Pickup Pal did not abide by.
Re:Article Biased... (Score:5, Insightful)
Specifically, it allows drivers and passengers to arrange compensation for trips.
Does this remind you of anything else? Oh, yes, a taxi company (or bus company, take your pick)...
The difference being that the taxicab/bus company itself makes money on each ride. PickupPal does not receive any money from the passenger or driver. Are they going to fine the phone company when I call my friend up and we arrange a road trip where he agrees to pay for half the gas? What about the message boards at colleges where drivers and passengers arrange for long trips back home? Sue the college?
Specifically, it allows drivers and passengers to arrange compensation for trips.
Between the driver and passenger, which is a private transaction that has nothing to do with PickupPal. It is not a transaction between the driver, passenger, and 'arranging' entity (taxicab company). Now, if you want to go after a driver because he is accepting money for a ride without having a taxi license, then go ahead. But going after PickupPal is just absurd.
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Re:Article Biased... (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, part of the information in evidence was that, in fact, up until fairly recently PickupPal did make a 7% commission.
However, I'm not sure that's necessary in this case. PickupPal is still making money off of this service of connecting riders to drivers (which, I'll point out is what a taxicab service does). PickupPal just has a different way of collecting that money now (via advertisements).
Not at all. PickupPal is an instrumental entity in this transaction. It acts like a broker. Just because the contract is between two parties doesn't mean PickupPal isn't in the business of arranging public transportation.
I refer you to section 2(2) of the Public Vehicles Act, which is cited in the Board's decision:
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I Live in Ontario (Score:5, Interesting)
I have never heard of these regulations. I doubt very much they are enforced at all. The fact that the got fined is only due to a complaint. If A) the public was aware, or B) the Premier was aware of those regulations, it would be dead in a week. This is actually very stupid move by the bus company if they are really worried about competition. I mean really, the province just started installing car pool only lanes on the 401, are they going to now say they are not committed to this sort of activity. Silly.
If I were PickupPal I would not pay the fine and write two letters, one to our Premier, and one sent to the various mainstream media outlets also indicating a letter was sent to the Premier.
This will kill the fine, kill the regs, and likely promote PickupPal, and car pooling in general. That's a quadruple win I think.
Similar Case In Germany (Score:4, Interesting)
Not surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
"[The transportation board has] established a bunch of draconian rules that any user in Ontario must follow if it uses the service â" including no crossing of municipal boundaries â" meaning the service is only good within any particular city's limits. It's better than being shut down completely, and the service can still operate elsewhere around the world, but this is yet another case where we see regulations, that are supposedly put in place to improve things for consumers, do the exact opposite."
Regulations ultimately act to benefit the regulated; not the public. The raise barriers to entry and protect incumbents. A Nobel Prize laureate in Economics pointed that out years ago.
In general, regulated industries can sustain higher prices and have less competition than unregulated ones. That's not o say regulation does not have a place; but to think it results in lower prices to consumers is wrong.
The Carpooling Hustle (Score:5, Funny)
Apparently driving is like sex in Canada.
The bus is like a strip club. Everyone gets together for legally sanctioned transportation, but none of the customers get to drive, and it's not as much fun as a real car ride.
Re:Canadians carpool? (Score:5, Funny)
They ride moose up there. They're bigger.
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Re:Walking (Score:5, Interesting)
This sort of reminds me of a short story that Asimov wrote about a boy who decided he no longer wanted to use the transporters in every home in order to go to school. He preferred walking to school each day instead, much to the horror of his mother.
It just... piqued my memory, I guess.
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Re:Walking (Score:4, Interesting)
Even more so Bastiat's story about the candle maker wanting to outlaw the sun for unfair competition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candlemakers'_petition [wikipedia.org]
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